The Wise Man's Fear V [Spoilers and speculation within]

[RobMRobM]

I have a huge post that talks about Skarpi, RobMRobM, if you'd care to read it (here).

Meri- thanks. Interesting post. Makes perfect sense for Skopi, Sceop and others to be word form of speaker or bard and to actually be Aleph. Nice. Rob

[Gaston de Foix]

The thing about the rings of amber, bone stone, etc is that Kvothe actually shatters the cobblestones in Imre in a way no one can mend. Pretty sure that would have be by calling the name of stone. So actually both of his hands contain rings of which Kvothe knows the name. The evidence is just too strong otherwise; we have three pieces of data that support the suggestion that Kvothe knows the Name of those things.

Maybe he can name wind, fire, ice, blood and (unknown) and shape, iron, bone, stone, amber and wood?

[thistlepong]

The thing about the rings of amber, bone stone, etc is that Kvothe actually shatters the cobblestones in Imre in a way no one can mend. Pretty sure that would have be by calling the name of stone. So actually both of his hands contain rings of which Kvothe knows the name. The evidence is just too strong otherwise; we have three pieces of data that support the suggestion that Kvothe knows the Name of those things.

Maybe he can name wind, fire, ice, blood and (unknown) and shape, iron, bone, stone, amber and wood?

This isn't so much a refutation as an exploration. Even if he knows the secret turnings of stone, there's no guarantee he's the one who shatters the stones. Haliax, Elodin, and Fela actually know the name already. Who knows what goes down by the fountain?

Without going link crazy, we made a good effort at examining Hespe's story and the University ranking system to come up with El'ir (seer), Re'lar (speaker), El'the (listener), and gilthe (Arcanist/knower.) Our best guess is that El'the is a measure of control and maturity, a demonstration of the qualities Lorren and Kilvin are always going on about. If most masters and a few arcanists have a name or two under their belts, there must be a reason they don't go around controlling the weather and whatnot.

It makes sense to call the opposing factions in the Creation War namers and shapers, but there's no need for their magics to be a difference in kind. Selitos changes something fundamental about Haliax, swathing him in magical shadow and turning his name against him for all time. Aleph radically transforms Tehlu & Pals in ways far more drastic than making a silver trees. Lyra kills with her voice. Iax (probably) coaxes the moon into Faen. Namers shape.

Regarding the rings, I can see him learning most of them. What does Dal say? Truly understanding a thing?

• Stone - coming along nicely
  
• Iron - (he threatens to break Chronicler's binding, takes ferrous metallurgy)
  
• Amber - no relationship
  
• Wood - ( ? woodgrains and acoustic qualities via lutes)
  
• Bone - (learns the sygaldry for bone early, intimate with his own bones breaking)
  
• Blood - (uses it all the time for sympathy, knows the runes, talented spiller)
  
• Wind - has it
  
• Ice - ( ? does freezing in Tarbean count)
  
• Flame - (hears "fire," has a tendency to be around when things burn down)
  
• (without name) His own name*
  

_{*Skarpi names him in Tarbean to snap him out of his funk. The moment of confusion following "You should run, Kvothe," is beacuse Erlus and co. don't know WTF Skarpi just said.}

[Gaston de Foix]

ok- I haven't abandoned my post about the missing princess by any means, but I felt like I should road test one inference in relation to the "King" in the "Kingkiller Chronicles".

We see repeatedly in WMF that Ambrose who is a very valid contender to the the title of the relevant King for a variety of reasons shirks from physical confrontation and getting his own hands duty. The duel then, between Kvothe and someone else, is unlikely to be Ambrose, particularly if Kvothe has garnered a reputation as a talented swordsman and Namer. It's not Ambrose's modus operandi- we are repeatedly told in WMF that he prefers to operate through surrogates, and in the scene when he is practising malfeasance against Kvothe, he doesn't imagine for a moment that it is Kvothe he is attacking directly.

My inference then is that assuming the King in question wasn't (1) ambushed or (2) assassinated but was killed in a fair fight, it's very unlikely to be Ambrose. In fact it's overwhelmingly likely to be a character we haven't been introduced to yet but possesses a certain amount of supreme self-confidence.

[two_by_two]

Good question. The quote you're seeking is "Call it what you will. The fact that you heard me say anything is probably a good sign." I may have to rescind my naysaying about the rings of stone, iron, amber, wood, and bone.

Taken a bit further, the first time he witnesses a name uttered, all he sees is Abenthy's mouth move. Later he'll hear something unintelligible. Then he'll hear the word, like fire. For those things he understands the old word, the name.

So he's getting closer to fire. He's near stone, cyaerbasalien. And he has wind, aerlevsedi.

_{Interestingly enough, Sim hears wind when Elodin says aerlevsedi. He's just full of surprises.}

Great point, thistle. We should also remember that, when Kvothe first meets the Chandrian, Haliax calls Cinder's name, Ferula. Kvothe hears this. However, it seems to be implied (with Felurian) that a person's name is best represented as a song. So would Kvothe have even then been somewhat close to Cinder's name? Either that or this theory falls apart there. Hmm.

I like the thought about Sim. That's a great catch; I don't remember that happening.

EDIT: Actually, the Adem's song seems to imply that Ferula is Cinder's true name, full and entire.

[Kzad-bhat]

Silver to Gold: Mistake, Alchemy or Intended

I was thinking about this earlier... how people keep pointing out the mistake of Kvothe saying he gave back a gold ring when he returned a silver ring.

I see a few potential explanations:

1. Rothfuss made a mistake. It's a big book... he was in a rush... bound to happen. Didn't get caught by the editors... as it was a small and insignificant part of the story.

This seems likely... Rothfuss has lots of little details... my problem with it is the rings AREN'T a little detail, they play fairly heavily into the Maer's court story. Which rings he gets from whom (and what they are made of) and rings in general play a fairly significant role. You would think he would pay careful attention to what rings Kvothe has, especially as he describes the gold ring twice when he is returning it.

2. The rings got switched, Kvothe didn't notice it, and Kote slipped the fact in to see if the Chronicler notices/cares...

If the manservant realized that Kvothe was a Lackless, the silver ring would have been dreadfully inappropriate. He could have easily gotten into Kvothe's room and switched it out.

To me, this would better explain Meluan's rage at Kvothe's declaration of being an Edema Ruh. The Maer would know if his servant did, and he would clearly not hide it from his wife... she would be more likely to show the Lackless box to a Lackless (and maybe assume since he was one of them he might be more able to open it)... and get more upset when he basically throws her sister's abandonment of her resposibility in Meluan's face.

To build speculation onto more speculation... it's possible that the wooden rings signify something more than Bredon tells Kvothe, and maybe Meluan used her anger as an excuse to get him the ring. Just because his name is freshly burned into the ring doesn't mean the ring is new. It just seems odd to me that 2 different women have given him a wooden ring (both of which fit his hand).

It could also possibly be the reason Bredon says "You aren't supposed to wear that"... as it is the ring unworn.

[Kylar Stern]

Two things have sprung to mind.

Firstly - is Telhu the God the same Telhu as becomes the first Amyr?

Secondly - who do we think Kvothe kills near the fountain in Imre? As mentioned by a traveller near the very start of 'Wind.

[Merihathor]

Two things have sprung to mind.

Firstly - is Telhu the God the same Telhu as becomes the first Amyr?

Secondly - who do we think Kvothe kills near the fountain in Imre? As mentioned by a traveller near the very start of 'Wind.

I think Tehlu becomes the first angel, not Amyr; Selitos is the first Amyr.

Theories about whom Kvothe kills include Ambrose, Simeon or someone we haven't met yet.

[Merihathor]

Merihathor, I wanted to respond to this, but couldn't find the reference in either book. Can you point me to it?

I'm trying to find it, but not having luck. Good grief, did I imagine the mirror at Haliax's feet? In any case, I'll keep looking.

Edit--I found it:

page 595, NTW, hardcover edition

She [Nina] thought about it. "There was one with no face, just a hood with nothing inside. There was a mirror by his feet and there was a bunch of moons over him. You know, full moon, half moon, sliver moon."

Glad I didn't imagine reading that and then waste all that time thinking about mirrors ;-)

[two_by_two]

Silver to Gold: Mistake, Alchemy or Intended

I was thinking about this earlier... how people keep pointing out the mistake of Kvothe saying he gave back a gold ring when he returned a silver ring.

I see a few potential explanations:

1. Rothfuss made a mistake. It's a big book... he was in a rush... bound to happen. Didn't get caught by the editors... as it was a small and insignificant part of the story.

This seems likely... Rothfuss has lots of little details... my problem with it is the rings AREN'T a little detail, they play fairly heavily into the Maer's court story. Which rings he gets from whom (and what they are made of) and rings in general play a fairly significant role. You would think he would pay careful attention to what rings Kvothe has, especially as he describes the gold ring twice when he is returning it.

2. The rings got switched, Kvothe didn't notice it, and Kote slipped the fact in to see if the Chronicler notices/cares...

If the manservant realized that Kvothe was a Lackless, the silver ring would have been dreadfully inappropriate. He could have easily gotten into Kvothe's room and switched it out.

To me, this would better explain Meluan's rage at Kvothe's declaration of being an Edema Ruh. The Maer would know if his servant did, and he would clearly not hide it from his wife... she would be more likely to show the Lackless box to a Lackless (and maybe assume since he was one of them he might be more able to open it)... and get more upset when he basically throws her sister's abandonment of her resposibility in Meluan's face.

To build speculation onto more speculation... it's possible that the wooden rings signify something more than Bredon tells Kvothe, and maybe Meluan used her anger as an excuse to get him the ring. Just because his name is freshly burned into the ring doesn't mean the ring is new. It just seems odd to me that 2 different women have given him a wooden ring (both of which fit his hand).

It could also possibly be the reason Bredon says "You aren't supposed to wear that"... as it is the ring unworn.

Interesting ideas. I assume you mean the ring unworn from the Lackless poems? Hmmm. Doesn't Stapes also express dismay and shock that Meluan gave him a wooden ring as well? I could buy this if it were just Bredon, as he is presumably playing a higher game, but I think Stapes is genuinely sincere.

[Lord O' Bones]

Full disclosure: I'm only 100 pages or so in. But I also read the first one.

Does Kvothe ever stop being a total retard about women?* Does the plot ever focus on something other than his tuition and how he'll pay for it?

Because I'm seriously about to put this book that I paid 30 dollars for down out of boredom.

I'd rather hear now that I don't "get it" than keep clawing my way through a bunch of repetitive bullshit.

* I would have fucked Denna, Fela, Auri, Devi, and probably Mola by now. Not because I'm super studly, but because I'm an actually fully realized human being with a penis. Unlike Kvothe.

ETA: OK, probably not Auri. The mental power imbalance is too creepy as far as sex goes. One way or the other.

[KyleLitke]

It seems fairly conclusive that Bast is fully in support of Kvothe. Here's a link to an earlier post in which is quoted a short story by PR in which Bast seems willing to give his life for Kvothe.

I dunno, I'm glad you brought this up since I was gonna comment when I read it, but that was last week and obviously that was from a long time ago...am I the only one who reads that as Bast knows he's immune to the poison? It's not giving his life if he knows the poison won't even effect him.

That's not to say I think Bast is not in support of Kvothe, I don't really know, but I didn't quite understand the argument that Bast was willing to give his life there. I thought it was clear he wasn't effected.

As far as the king Kvothe kills, I liked the idea that he kills the king and ends up inadvertently putting Ambrose on the throne. I noticed a few instances where Kvothe seems to dislike the king (in the present day). Could be Ambrose he kills though. I assume one of those two things will end up being the case, but we'll see.

[unJon]

Yes, there is a distinct change in Kvothe's attitude and abilities towards women halfway through the book. Total heteroskedasticity that many people found jarring.

[two_by_two]

Full disclosure: I'm only 100 pages or so in. But I also read the first one.

Does Kvothe ever stop being a total retard about women?* Does the plot ever focus on something other than his tuition and how he'll pay for it?

Because I'm seriously about to put this book that I paid 30 dollars for down out of boredom.

I'd rather hear now that I don't "get it" than keep clawing my way through a bunch of repetitive bullshit.

* I would have fucked Denna, Fela, Auri, Devi, and probably Mola by now. Not because I'm super studly, but because I'm an actually fully realized human being with a penis. Unlike Kvothe.

ETA: OK, probably not Auri. The mental power imbalance is too creepy as far as sex goes. One way or the other.

Just a warning, Lord O' Bones, there are spoilers galore. I would stay off this forum until you're done with the book.

I dunno, I'm glad you brought this up since I was gonna comment when I read it, but that was last week and obviously that was from a long time ago...am I the only one who reads that as Bast knows he's immune to the poison? It's not giving his life if he knows the poison won't even effect him.

That's not to say I think Bast is not in support of Kvothe, I don't really know, but I didn't quite understand the argument that Bast was willing to give his life there. I thought it was clear he wasn't effected.

As far as the king Kvothe kills, I liked the idea that he kills the king and ends up inadvertently putting Ambrose on the throne. I noticed a few instances where Kvothe seems to dislike the king (in the present day). Could be Ambrose he kills though. I assume one of those two things will end up being the case, but we'll see.

I agree with you that Bast probably wasn't affected. But I think the point stands that he is devoted to Kvothe.

Farther back there is much much discussion about who the king is whom Kvothe kills and who the current king is. I personally am in the camp of Ambrose being the current king. I don't have any particular opinion about who the killed king is, but it's honestly probably King Roderick, solely for simplicity's sake.

[unJon]

I don't have any particular opinion about who the killed king is, but it's honestly probably King Roderick, solely for simplicity's sake.

Not sure Roderick is really that much 'simpler' than the other contenders if you assume Ambrose is the current king. For that to happen, Roderick and everyone else ahead of Ambrose needs to die anway.

[two_by_two]

Not sure Roderick is really that much 'simpler' than the other contenders if you assume Ambrose is the current king. For that to happen, Roderick and everyone else ahead of Ambrose needs to die anway.

That's true, but, as has been pointed out above, everyone ahead of Ambrose has been moving in that direction already, if I recall correctly. Anyways, I think Ambrose being the current king has a beautiful poetic irony to it.

[thistlepong]

Roderic is a good King(killer) candidate because he is King. Alveron is a good King(killer) candidate because he's an ambitious character we know. Baron Jakis is a good King(killer) candidate because the peerage is eliding before him. And Ambrose is a good King(killer) candidate because of Kvothe's longstanding rivalry.

It'd be kind of disappointing if Ambrose is just that guy Kvothe hated in college. I agree with grinachu, though. He disdains open violence. I also agree with unJon; none of it's simple, especially when you start positing who the Penitent King is...

Great point, thistle. We should also remember that, when Kvothe first meets the Chandrian, Haliax calls Cinder's name, Ferula. Kvothe hears this. However, it seems to be implied (with Felurian) that a person's name is best represented as a song. So would Kvothe have even then been somewhat close to Cinder's name? Either that or this theory falls apart there. Hmm.

I like the thought about Sim. That's a great catch; I don't remember that happening.

EDIT: Actually, the Adem's song seems to imply that Ferula is Cinder's true name, full and entire.

The same notion holds; it's a good sign he heard anything at all. Better still, if the theory is strong, then that instance foreshadows his ability to name Felurian with his power boosted by Faen. There's no guarantee he'll understand Cinder's name, let alone be able to use it. That's perfectly consistent with the way naming is presented; a developed relationship with that which is named. But for someone who knows the name of the wind, the turnings of a person might be within reach.

I like this. I won't lie.

EDIT: c84, last page or so... kl 12325

"

Aerlevsedi

," he said. "Say it."

"What?" Simmon said somewhere in the distant background. "Wind?"

page 595, NTW, hardcover edition

She [Nina] thought about it. "There was one with no face, just a hood with nothing inside. There was a mirror by his feet and there was a bunch of moons over him. You know, full moon, half moon, sliver moon."

Thank you. :thumbsup: (kl 12114)

[two_by_two]

I feel like I'm lurking constantly. But excellent points, well-proposed, thistle.

I still think there is a strong connection between the moon and selas flowers that we should discuss. It makes sense etymologically.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

I feel stupid for not realizing this before, but we can identify the nationality of the King Kvothe kills. How? If we assume that Kvothe started the war by his kingkilling, then the answer lies in the currency. Soldiers are receiving a royal from the king. This not only places the Waystone in Vintas, but it's a good indication that Kvothe will kill the King of Vint.

So Sim isn't the KING that Kvothe kills.

Slightly convoluted idea, Kvothe kills Vashet's poet king from one of the small kingdoms. Rodrick tries to annex this kingdom, but is met with resistance. Since the kingdom is 'rightfully his' people in Vintas refer to the situation as a rebellion.

[Gaston de Foix]

I feel stupid for not realizing this before, but we can identify the nationality of the King Kvothe kills. How? If we assume that Kvothe started the war by his kingkilling, then the answer lies in the currency. Soldiers are receiving a royal from the king. This not only places the Waystone in Vintas, but it's a good indication that Kvothe will kill the King of Vint.

So Sim isn't the KING that Kvothe kills.

Slightly convoluted idea, Kvothe kills Vashet's poet king from one of the small kingdoms. Rodrick tries to annex this kingdom, but is met with resistance. Since the kingdom is 'rightfully his' people in Vintas refer to the situation as a rebellion.

I just had a thought about this; it could be the Maer is trying to annex the kingdom of Vint after Kvothe kills the King. We still don't have an explanation for the attempt on the Maer's life-it could be Roderick was trying to seize the Maer's land upon the Maer's death.

The big question: what would he King of Vint be doing in Imre.