The Wise Man's Fear V [Spoilers and speculation within]

[Spaceman Hobbes]

I just had a thought about this; it could be the Maer is trying to annex the kingdom of Vint after Kvothe kills the King. We still don't have an explanation for the attempt on the Maer's life-it could be Roderick was trying to seize the Maer's land upon the Maer's death.

The big question: what would he King of Vint be doing in Imre.

I doubt that Kvothe kills a king in Irme. Unless there is a very convoluted situation where Ambrose becomes King, it just doesn't seem likely. The fame of the Irme killing could be related to the naming used to perform it.

I thought the Maer's holdings were part of Vintas already?

[Lord O' Bones]

Just a warning, Lord O' Bones, there are spoilers galore. I would stay off this forum until you're done with the book.

I believe you. I just don't care. Until someone can at least hint to me that this doesn't remain the most boring thing I've ever read outside of the stellar prose, I don't really care.

Very talented yet poor student goes through shenanigans to pay tuition and sucks beyond all belief dealing with women who btw all like him although other students and some of the staff hate him because they are petulant assholes and blah blah blah X 100. Rinse. Repeat.

As of now, Kvothe to me is a poorly realised Locke Lammora with the powers of Khellus whom I utterly despise, and whom does nothing that I personally, the reader, would ever want to do. Except get drunk.

[Gaston de Foix]

Best Guesses Please

I am trying to put together a theory, and I wanted some speculative answers to the following questions. The wilder and wackier the better.

1."The royal court in Renere was busy too. The Prince Regent Alaitis had been killed in a duel, sending much of the southern farrel into chaos as various nobility did their best to capitalize on the death of such a highly ranked member of the court." (WMF, Chapter 137, Questions). From the Four Corners Map, Renere is situated somewhere in the middle of Vintas. Why would the death of the Prince Regent specifically affect the Southern Farrel?

2. "You've got the royal family, the prince regents, Maer Alveron, Duchess Samista, Aculeus and Meluan Lackless. . .." (pg. 294, NOTW). Why don't the Prince Regents (1)get considered part of the Royal Family and (2) precede the rest of the royal family in the line of succession?

3. Normally you have Prince Regents if there is some incapacity on behalf of the monarch, or the monarch wishes to endow power to a relative (usually a son, but exceptionally a husband). Thus George IV was Prince Regent while George III was mad and Albert was Prince Regent when Victoria was Queen. But it seems we have a situation in Vintas where there are at least two prince regents and they seem to be responsible for various parts of the country. They are not, jointly or severally, "Crown Prince"; since a Crown Prince isn't mentioned, perhaps its implied (I certainly believe) there isn't one.

The Prince Regents ergo would be more like Viceroys. It's interesting that it's stated that Alaitis is a member of the royal court yet his lands lie in the southern farrel. What we are seeing is a highly centralised royal court. This is relevant because its a strong indication that there is no practice of itinerant kingship at least in Vintas and so Roderic's presence in Imre is even harder to justify if he is to be a candidate for the killed King. It may be as Dune observes, Kvothe didn't kill a King in Imre.

The suggestion I take from "the royal family" is actually that Roderic only has one daughter, Princess Ariel, and therefore has appointed "Prince Regents" as effectively viceroys in his name.

4. "They have an old Aturan mendary where they keep church records for the whole of the northern farrel." Maer Alveron, in relation to knowledge of the Amyr (WMF, Chapter 137, Questions).

Read together with the quote in (1) above, I think we can stipulate that Vintas is divided into "farrels", and not many of them either two (North and South) or more likely, four (North, East, West, South). The word farrel itself has no etymological origin I can describe but I would welcome more linguistically gifted people than myself taking a shot.

5. In (2) above- a title is given for everyone save the Lacklesses. Maer is a title, just to clarify. Kvothe observes in WMF

"Still standing, I turned to Meluan and made my bows. “I am pleased to have the chance to meet with you again . . . my lady?” I made the last a question as I wasn’t sure how to address her. The Lackless lands used to be a full earldom, but that was before the bloodless rebellion, when they still controlled Tinuë. Her marriage to the Alveron complicated things too, as I wasn’t sure if there was a female counterpart to the title of Maershon."

Why do the Lackless' have no title?. So far we have a hodge podge of titles, earls (of Baedyn Bryt, formerly a Lackless title), dukes and duchesses (Samista, Sim's father), barons (Baron Jakis), Counts (Count Threpe), and Lords (Lord Kellin "Brickjaw"). Obviously titles might differ from Vintas to the Commonwealth but there is no consistency I can see and perhaps a few too many titles floating around. Can someone make sense of it?

In the english peerage Duke trumps everything else but there are hints that an earldom in the Four Corners is as important or more than a duchy. It might depend which earldom and which duchy of course, but it seems like the hiearchy has been inverted somewhat.

[Merihathor]

I believe you. I just don't care. Until someone can at least hint to me that this doesn't remain the most boring thing I've ever read outside of the stellar prose, I don't really care.

Very talented yet poor student goes through shenanigans to pay tuition and sucks beyond all belief dealing with women who btw all like him although other students and some of the staff hate him because they are petulant assholes and blah blah blah X 100. Rinse. Repeat.

As of now, Kvothe to me is a poorly realised Locke Lammora with the powers of Khellus whom I utterly despise, and whom does nothing that I personally, the reader, would ever want to do. Except get drunk.

I think you're missing a lot from the book, but I'd advise that you stop now if you're that irritated with the main character. A great deal is going on beneath the surface that you've missed, as five threads of discussion should indicate (or hint at, to use your word). However, you sound pretty convinced of your dislike, so I'd put the book down and find something else :-)

[Zolt]

I feel stupid for not realizing this before, but we can identify the nationality of the King Kvothe kills. How? If we assume that Kvothe started the war by his kingkilling, then the answer lies in the currency. Soldiers are receiving a royal from the king. This not only places the Waystone in Vintas, but it's a good indication that Kvothe will kill the King of Vint.

So Sim isn't the KING that Kvothe kills.

Slightly convoluted idea, Kvothe kills Vashet's poet king from one of the small kingdoms. Rodrick tries to annex this kingdom, but is met with resistance. Since the kingdom is 'rightfully his' people in Vintas refer to the situation as a rebellion.

Hi, I just joined this forum: After following threads about TWMF on several other boards, I got redirected here and wow! You guys have really picked apart these poor books!

I've been pondering about the above for a while too: who is the king that Kvothe kills, and which country is Newarre in? Modeg and Atur seem to be out, since that would make Kvote the Highkingkiller, or the emperorkiller. There are many Kings in the small kingdom, but killing one of them doesnt seem like a ticket to worldwide fame. We don't know the political structure of Ceal or Yll, but these have very distinctive cultures and languages: we'd have known if the frame story was set there.

So that leaves the Commonwealth and Vint. Vint seems like the most obvious location, since we've had lots of information about the Vintish royal line, whereas if the Commonwealth has a King, it's never been mentioned, even in Tarbean which seems to be the de-facto capital.

Some bits don't add up (pun intended): whenever they use any currency in Newarre, they always talk in terms of talents, shims, and pennies, and not the Vintish currency with is based on the silver bit. That could simply be because they're in a remote location and the Cealdish currency is what traveling merchants would use.

None of the places mentioned in the frame story pops up in the main story nor are they on the map: Rannish, Baedn, Treya. In NOTW, someone is surprised to see scrael this side of the stormwal mountains, which means they're not too far. All of this would tend to say that Newarre is in Vint, and that the King that Kvothe killed is the king of Vint. Whoever Kvothe killed in Imre, that almost has to be somebody else, if it's even true.

My personal (unsubstantiated) guess would be that Alveron somehow becomes King, Kvothe kills him for whatever reason, and Ambrose succeeds (the penitent king).

[unJon]

Welcome, Zolt. I could be wrong, but I thought that a Commonwealth, by definition, is not ruled by a king.

[thistlepong]

Hi, Zolt. Welcome to the the discussion.

The coins have been nagging at me as well. The locals in the frame story are clearly familiar with multiple currencies. Kvothe pays in talents and Cob's Taborlin story features gold nobles, not royals. But the PK is offering Vintic coins. Something to look at anyway.

I'll edit this with citations, but...

The Shald is a monarchy, ruled by a king.

Atur is a monarchy, ruled by a king.

The Emprire dispanded 300 years ago.

Modeg is a monarchy, ruled by a king, probably a High King.

Vintas is a monarchy, ruled by a king.

Vint was conquered by the Aturan Empire.

The Commonwealth is a... commonwealth with a governing body situated in Tarbean.

recently copied in post

143

grinachu, your list sort of dovetails, so I'm not sure I can stay true to it, but here goes...

1. The Prince Regents could be lords of the Farrels. So there could be four of them.
   
2. The Prince Regents aren't part of the royal family, but powerful men appointed to steward the monarchy in the event the royal family is unable.
   
3. Alveron remains in Severen precisely because his court has plenary powers the other Vintic Nobles don't. The rest of the court could spend a fair amount of time in the capital, particularly in peacetime. I've been saying for threads now that the King isn't killed in Imre. If Kvothe wasn't such an enthusiastic killer, I could see hanging onto that idea, but iirc you were the one who reasoned that Alveron (and thus other sitting monarchs) couldn't be there.
   
4. Id estimate four farrels. The girl from the alley is from the western farrel. Alveron's lands could count as a fifth division of the kingdom.
   
5. From the order were given…
   
   • King, Queen, Princess ;) ^Roderic
     
   • Prince Regent ^Alaitis
     
   • Maershon (likely unique) ^Alveron
     
   • Duke, Duchess ^Samista
     
   • Earl ^Lackless
     
   • Baron, Baroness ^Jakis
     

I still think there is a strong connection between the moon and selas flowers that we should discuss. It makes sense etymologically.

I take your point about the potential link. And you clearly want to explore it. But I'm not sure what exactly you're getting at. Can you elaborate?

_{EDIT 1: Maershon comes before Duke in Vintas}

[Gaston de Foix]

Hi, Zolt. Welcome to the the discussion.

The coins have been nagging at me as well. The locals in the frame story are clearly familiar with multiple currencies. Kvothe pays in talents and Cob's Taborlin story features gold nobles, not royals. But the PK is offering Vintic coins. Something to look at anyway.

I'll edit this with citations, but...

[*]I’d estimate four farrels. The girl from the alley is from the western farrel. Alveron's lands could count as a fifth division of the kingdom.

[*]From the order we’re given…

• King, Queen, Princess ;) ^Roderic
  
• Prince Regent ^Alaitis
  
• Duke, Duchess ^Samista
  
• Maershon (likely unique) ^Alveron
  
• Earl ^Lackless
  
• Baron, Baroness ^Jakis
  

Cealdish money travels well and is sort of a de facto eurozone currency. That's the simplest explanation. If we saw currency other than Cealdish or Vintish I would be troubled, but I don't think we have.

Good catch about the girl in the alley- I knew there was something I was missing on the farrel business.

We also have-- Baronets (Baronet Pettur) and Squires (Squire Berganon). We have a Viscount as well in the form of Baron Greyfallow who is Viscount of Montrone and Lord of Trelliston. Apparently Squire Semelan owes Baron Greyfallow allegiance which makes sense and clears up the feudal tree at least a little bit. And there's Compte Farlend he of the compliments for selas floweres to the Maer, but I'm going to keep things simple and say that Compte=Count.

btw, addition to the Errata. Denna acts as if he she has never seen sympathy before in WMF, but Kvothe does perform sympathy in front of her in Trebon, specifically at the Mauthen farm. Reading that scene leads me to plan a post On Denna ;)

[thistlepong]

We also have-- Baronets (Baronet Pettur) and Squires (Squire Berganon). We have a Viscount as well in the form of Baron Greyfallow who is Viscount of Montrone and Lord of Trelliston. Apparently Squire Semelan owes Baron Greyfallow allegiance which makes sense and clears up the feudal tree at least a little bit. And there's Compte Farlend he of the compliments for selas floweres to the Maer, but I'm going to keep things simple and say that Compte=Count.

Do you really need the whole peerage of every nation untangled? Following "Lady Lackless," Laurian and Kvothe compose a rhyme to make sense of that while, kvothe, narrating, suggests it's a mess. In any case, almost every other title in Vintas probably is gonna rank under Baron.

[Gaston de Foix]

Do you really need the whole peerage of every nation untangled? Following "Lady Lackless," Laurian and Kvothe compose a rhyme to make sense of that while, kvothe, narrating, suggests it's a mess. In any case, almost every other title in Vintas probably is gonna rank under Baron.

I'd forgotten about rhyme. We have Vintish spara-thains as well. And the Viceroy of Bannis, who likes candied peanuts.

;) Alright enough with the nobility.

Dukes, Earls, Barons, I think, in that order. Vintas may not have a whole lot of earldoms or duchies though.

[thistlepong]

Any chance we're making an assumption that Kvothe only kills one king 'cause Jaime got the epithet after just one?

[Gaston de Foix]

I don't think so. Killing a King is pretty central to his legend. It sort of diminishes if it was a whole scale blood bath.

Poet Killer

Two quotes for your consideration

. “But everybody knows Kvothe’s sword was made of silver.” He flicked his eyes up to the sword that hung on the wall. “It wasn’t called Folly, either. It was Kaysera, the poet-killer.”

The innkeeper rocked back a bit at that. “The poet-killer?”

Aaron nodded doggedly. “Yes sir.

AND

He turned to look at the sword. “This isn’t . . . what did the boy call it this morning?”

His eyes went distant for a moment, then he smiled again. “Kaysera. The poet killer.”

Thistle, I've been discounting your Sim=Poet King theory only because I can't see how Kvothe can end up killing such a close friend in 800 pages. But there's more going on here than Aaron getting the meaning of the name of the sword tangled up with the sword's most famous victim.

[thistlepong]

Thistle, I've been discounting your Sim=Poet King theory only because I can't see how Kvothe can end up killing such a close friend in 800 pages. But there's more going on here than Aaron getting the meaning of the name of the sword tangled up with the sword's most famous victim.

Sim ≠ King is central to what I've been presenting.

So you're saying he is?

[Gaston de Foix]

Sim ≠ King is central to what I've been presenting.

So you're saying he is?

Wait and see. I'm still developing my thoughts on this...

I do think the passage below is crucial.

"I'm that too." Kote turned to polish the counter behind the bar. He

shrugged again, not as easily as before. "I've killed men and things that were

more than men. Every one of them deserved it."

Chronicler shook his head slowly. "The stories are saying 'assassin' not

'hero.' Kvothe the Arcane and Kvothe Kingkiller are two very different men."

Kote stopped polishing the bar and turned his back to the room. He nodded

once without looking up.

"Some are even saying that there is a new Chandrian. A fresh terror in the

night. His hair as red as the blood he spills."

"The important people know the difference," Kote said as if he were trying

to convince himself, but his voice was weary and despairing, without

conviction.

Kvothe clearly does not regret killing him but does regret the hurt to his reputation.

Whoever the King was, Kvothe does not seem to feel even the sort of remorse/grief he felt after killing the fake Edema Ruh. Either that's because Kvothe is harder as a person or because the 'King' did something qualitatively worse than the fake Edema Ruh. I assume it's a combination of both.

"things that are more than men"- implies a death of a rhinta

[thistlepong]

Your theory's a bit different than I expected from that first hinting post.

WMF c146 (kl 19005) "Sim was a prince."

[two_by_two]

3. Normally you have Prince Regents if there is some incapacity on behalf of the monarch, or the monarch wishes to endow power to a relative (usually a son, but exceptionally a husband). Thus George IV was Prince Regent while George III was mad and Albert was Prince Regent when Victoria was Queen. But it seems we have a situation in Vintas where there are at least two prince regents and they seem to be responsible for various parts of the country. They are not, jointly or severally, "Crown Prince"; since a Crown Prince isn't mentioned, perhaps its implied (I certainly believe) there isn't one.

The Prince Regents ergo would be more like Viceroys. It's interesting that it's stated that Alaitis is a member of the royal court yet his lands lie in the southern farrel. What we are seeing is a highly centralised royal court. This is relevant because its a strong indication that there is no practice of itinerant kingship at least in Vintas and so Roderic's presence in Imre is even harder to justify if he is to be a candidate for the killed King. It may be as Dune observes, Kvothe didn't kill a King in Imre.

The suggestion I take from "the royal family" is actually that Roderic only has one daughter, Princess Ariel, and therefore has appointed "Prince Regents" as effectively viceroys in his name.

4. "They have an old Aturan mendary where they keep church records for the whole of the northern farrel." Maer Alveron, in relation to knowledge of the Amyr (WMF, Chapter 137, Questions).

Read together with the quote in (1) above, I think we can stipulate that Vintas is divided into "farrels", and not many of them either two (North and South) or more likely, four (North, East, West, South). The word farrel itself has no etymological origin I can describe but I would welcome more linguistically gifted people than myself taking a shot.

Regarding the word "farrel": I think it could be related to the Four Farthings in LOTR, meaning a quarter of the Shire. That would lend support to the theory that there are four farrels, one for each cardinal direction. Farthing seems to be related etymologically to one-fourth (here).

Great catch with the Prince Regents. I think it makes sense for them to be sub-rulers, which would lead to a strongly hierarchical society. This could mean that, when Kvothe kills the king (assuming said king is Roderick), with no blood heir apparent, the kingdom would probably dissolve into infighting, leading to the state of war we see in the frame.

[williamjm]

Full disclosure: I'm only 100 pages or so in. But I also read the first one.

Does Kvothe ever stop being a total retard about women?* Does the plot ever focus on something other than his tuition and how he'll pay for it?

He does leave the University in a couple of hundred more pages (although not permanently, but he doesn't return until near the end of the book) so there's a bit of variety there. I'm not sure it's necessarily going to change your option all that much, though, if you're so bored already.

[AverageGuy]

• From the order we’re given…
  
  • King, Queen, Princess ;) ^Roderic
    
  • Prince Regent ^Alaitis
    
  • Maershon (likely unique) ^Alveron
    
  • Duke, Duchess ^Samista
    
  • Earl ^Lackless
    
  • Baron, Baroness ^Jakis
    

Yeah, I imagine Meluan's at least a courtesy Countess still. The Lacklesses just don't have an entire county anymore. Also, in chapter 53, we see a baronet (Pettur) and an esquire (Bergon), so those are a couple lower ranks in the peerage, or at least ranks in the gentry if Vintas makes a distinction. Given that, I wouldn't be surprised to find a rank in between Earl and Baron. Whether that's a sheriff or a viscount or a reeve I have no idea.

[thistlepong]

Anyone wanna take a crack at some odd questions?

1. Meluan sends Kvothe a wooden ring. We learn from Bredon that it's a snub. We know very little about the letter. Anyway, was it still a summons, despite the insult?
   
   
2. We all take Ergen to be the ancient civilization of the Four Corners. And Ergen went to war against Faen for the insult of the theft of the moon. They still have joint custody of the moon and illicit border travel. So, at best, the war ended in cease-fire with aggressive immigration controls?
   
   
3. The Seven/Rhinta/Chandrian and the moon-stealer are apparently unspeakable names in both realms. The moon-stealer catalyzed Ergen aggression toward Faen. The Seven/Rhinta/Chandrian were apparently citizens of Ergen who, what's a good word for it, rebelled? It would seem they didn't switch sides if Felurian won't speak of them.
   
   
4. Does Mola know Auri? Or even who she is? Or think she might? Mola, Fela, and Devi say the women of the Arcanum cant help but be a tight knit group. Mola, of all the students, has been at the University longer than anyone except Manet. Auri doesnt run from her. And Mola keeps her expression carefully blank during their meeting.
   
   
5. "I have a device devoid of any sygaldry that seems to do nothing but consume angular momentum." It's probably just an example of the artifacts Kilvin has, but isn't that profoundly weird? How would it work? How would you know?
   

[Gaston de Foix]

I thought I would share a BIG piece of news from the Doors of Stone thread. This is from Pat of Pat's fantasy hotlist. If everyone else has seen this already...sorry. I thought I would post it here in case you are interested. Warning though, it is potentially a big reveal of The Doors of Stone so do not click on it unless certain you want to know.

"Yes, the plan has always been that the first trilogy will be about Kvothe's backstory, while the second series will focus on the "real time" events alluded to in both TNotW and TWMF. And that's from Rothfuss, his editor Betsy Wollheim, our mutual agent Matt Bialer, and whoever has been in the loop from the start.

As far as the last volume being split, Betsy told me that won't happen. She says that Rothfuss is a meticulous planner and Kvothe's backstory will require a single book to be brought to a close."