408 replies to this topic

[thistlepong]

^{please pardon the double (wordy) posting}

Gaston de Foix, on 06 June 2011 - 04:34 PM, said:

Active, maybe. Confined to Fae or other realms? Also possible.

The legend of Lanre is that he can't die or be killed. If Arliden truly has worked out their origin and purpose, then he should know that Lanre aka Haliax cannot pass through the door of Death. It's possible that Arliden hasn't worked out their purpose of course but merely thinks he has.

I've been trying to come up with an analogy that will resonate across the water, but our conspiracy theories are different from yours and so much of what folk believe reverberates with intangible concepts in odd ways.  Perhaps that's the wrong idea, though.  The Chandrian are a fairy tale in a pre-literate society.

Arliden knows this.  He's doing comparative literature in an oral culture, or comparative religion.  Merihathor might correct me here, but he's looking for Inana in stories of Orpheus, Isis, and Dante.  We, as readers, might be the right comparison - looking for the real story of these fictional characters.  When one of the posters here finally convinces us about Haliax's purpose we will not be scared.

We know seven characters in the story take the Seven seriously.  Only Kvothe (and probably the Cthaeh) has direct experience with them in addition to pieces of their story.  If you want to be morbid, Arliden might have occupied that position for a short time as well.

It's also possible Arliden got all the names right, and discovered their true purpose, and it wasn't something he was afraid of.

Edited by thistlepong, 07 June 2011 - 09:35 AM.

[Merihathor]

thistlepong, on 07 June 2011 - 08:43 AM, said:

Arliden knows this.  He's doing comparative literature in an oral culture, or comparative religion.  Merihathor might correct me here, but he's looking for Inana in stories of Orpheus, Isis, and Dante.

Apt analogy. Perhaps Ereshkegal would fit better than Inana, however? :-) I'm teasing a bit, really, as your comment gets the point across nicely.

[Gaston de Foix]

thistlepong, on 07 June 2011 - 08:02 AM, said:

If you're saying he might be lying, I suppose I can't contradict you, two_by_two.

It's not that I don't think etymology is worthwhile.  It just may not be definitive.  I still think The Blac of Drossen Tor took place at the Sheer.  I'm still pretty sure the differences between behind and beyond, between set and shut regarding the doors of stone is significant.  But I don't see Ferule as irrefutable proof for Cinder=Patron.  The strength of that argument lies in the other clues surrounding the character.  So I try to find support within the narrative to support anything suggested by linguistic roots or mythological resonance.

This, in my opinion, is correct.

Just to add my lowbrow two cents. I think the most effective way to utilise etymology is to assume extreme sensitivity to meanings in English but not in other languages.

Thistle, do you believe that some Doors of Stone are prisons, while others are gateways?

[thistlepong]

Gaston de Foix, on 07 June 2011 - 10:06 AM, said:

Thistle, do you believe that some Doors of Stone are prisons, while others are gateways?

• Valaritas - Elodin tells Kvothe that, as a Re'lar, he doesn't get to go behind the four-plate door.  This implies whatever's behind it is an unknown known.  Folks go behind it.  Do you get to go as an El'the?  as a Master?  No idea.
  
• The Lackless Door - the unknown unknown...
  
• The Waystones - The known known.  They mark the path from Faen to the FC if one knows how to navigate them.  We have three stories indicating this and Kvothe's actual experience.

Regarding set beyond versus shut behind?  The difference bugs me, if it is a difference.  Guardians are set beyond.  Prisoners are shut behind.

[Gaston de Foix]

thistlepong, on 07 June 2011 - 10:30 AM, said:

• Valaritas - Elodin tells Kvothe that, as a Re'lar, he doesn't get to go behind the four-plate door.  This implies whatever's behind it is an unknown known.  Folks go behind it.  Do you get to go as an El'the?  as a Master?  No idea.
  
• The Lackless Door - the unknown unknown...
  
• The Waystones - The known known.  They mark the path from Faen to the FC if one knows how to navigate them.  We have three stories indicating this and Kvothe's actual experience.

Regarding set beyond versus shut behind?  The difference bugs me, if it is a difference.  Guardians are set beyond.  Prisoners are shut behind.

The Valaritas door is often described as the secret at the heart of the archives. Could it be, admittedly a litle disappointing, Lorren's secret library? All the Masters have secret libraries apparently, and Master Archivist might keep his in the heart of the library.

Also, Fela knows the Name of Stone. She could just break the door. Except for the copper plating of course.

[Sylvester]

Random thought about Denna's patron:

The name of "Master Ash" is suggested to Kvothe by a leaf carried by the wind...that is to say, a windblown leaf. Could that mean that her patron/his name is of the Lethani? Would that make him an Amyr, since from the vase, we know that the non-traitor is an Amyr and "remembered the Lethani"?

[Merihathor]

Sylvester, on 07 June 2011 - 01:55 PM, said:

Random thought about Denna's patron:

The name of "Master Ash" is suggested to Kvothe by a leaf carried by the wind...that is to say, a windblown leaf. Could that mean that her patron/his name is of the Lethani? Would that make him an Amyr, since from the vase, we know that the non-traitor is an Amyr and "remembered the Lethani"?

Interesting idea.

[unJon]

Kzad-bhat, on 05 June 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

I think the general problem the board has with him killing a king in Imre is the reason for the king to be there... why would a king be in the commonwealth and dueling with/provoking Kvothe.

Because he was coming to collect his daughter Ariel?

[two_by_two]

thistlepong, on 07 June 2011 - 08:02 AM, said:

If you're saying he might be lying, I suppose I can't contradict you, two_by_two.

I've been talking about this book (these books?) for months because I enjoy it.  It's fun.  I look forward to seeing what you've discovered.  I hope you're enjoying the research.

I just wanted to represent what he'd told us at the signing.  I asked if, given his concern with words and meanings, whether careful readers could find clues about identity and location etymologically.  He said no.  I clarified the question a little, and a linguist behind me further still.  Were there names is non-english languages that provided clues?  Apparently he gets asked now and then; he had a story about it.  A woman at a reading earlier in the year insisted he must know Latin given the number of Latin names that appear.  He said he knew a lot of things, but Latin wasn't one of them.  He followed this by telling us that his biggest concern maing Carceret was making it look like CAR sir et rather than car CAR eat.  Like I said, it cast doubt.

On the other hand, years and years at university and chemistry background almost ensures that some Latin gets in there, intentionallly or not.  I think you're on the right track with the bit you quote above.  His blog posts about the perils of translation discuss the importance of some names and reveal the depth and breadth of his vocabulary and love for English.  (The quote about crying and weeping is interesting just having read The Darkness that Comes Before where Bakker uses weep to condemn and cry, almost exclusively, to mean shout.)

It's not that I don't think etymology is worthwhile.  It just may not be definitive.  I still think The Blac of Drossen Tor took place at the Sheer.  I'm still pretty sure the differences between behind and beyond, between set and shut regarding the doors of stone is significant.  But I don't see Ferule as irrefutable proof for Cinder=Patron.  The strength of that argument lies in the other clues surrounding the character.  So I try to find support within the narrative to support anything suggested by linguistic roots or mythological resonance.

Well stated, thistle. Honestly, I'm just using it to justify the hours of time fiddling around on Google translate and etymonline.com, trying to piece together possible meanings. Whether or not there is any water to these translations is of course debatable, but then, so is all this speculation we've been doing. Either way, I've enjoyed myself. I see it as a puzzle: we're all using different methods and techniques to solve the puzzle, some of which may work, most of which will not. Even when our methods don't work (and honestly, there's no real way of telling if they do until DoS comes out), they can still provide insight into hidden layers of meaning.

[Galactus]

Sylvester, on 07 June 2011 - 01:55 PM, said:

Random thought about Denna's patron:

The name of "Master Ash" is suggested to Kvothe by a leaf carried by the wind...that is to say, a windblown leaf. Could that mean that her patron/his name is of the Lethani? Would that make him an Amyr, since from the vase, we know that the non-traitor is an Amyr and "remembered the Lethani"?

Well, the obvious would be Ash=Cinder...

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Gaston de Foix, on 07 June 2011 - 01:39 PM, said:

The Valaritas door is often described as the secret at the heart of the archives. Could it be, admittedly a litle disappointing, Lorren's secret library? All the Masters have secret libraries apparently, and Master Archivist might keep his in the heart of the library.

Also, Fela knows the Name of Stone. She could just break the door. Except for the copper plating of course.

Just had a thought. Kvothe has discovered that someone is collecting knowledge about the Amyr and the Chandrian and destroying it. He even thought about telling Lorren that someone was carefully removing information about the Amyr from the Archives.  

But what if it's Lorren? Except instead of destroying it he locks up knowledge that the masters consider to be too dangerous for anyone else to know. Knowledge like, where the Amyr disappeared to and what the Chandrian are up to.

[Gaston de Foix]

Dune, on 07 June 2011 - 04:27 PM, said:

Just had a thought. Kvothe has discovered that someone is collecting knowledge about the Amyr and the Chandrian and destroying it. He even thought about telling Lorren that someone was carefully removing information about the Amyr from the Archives.  

But what if it's Lorren? Except instead of destroying it he locks up knowledge that the masters consider to be too dangerous for anyone else to know. Knowledge like, where the Amyr disappeared to and what the Chandrian are up to.

I like this idea. There is a track record for him dissuading research into the Chandrian and the Amyr (NOTW, pg. 254).

[thistlepong]

Dune, on 07 June 2011 - 04:27 PM, said:

Just had a thought. Kvothe has discovered that someone is collecting knowledge about the Amyr and the Chandrian and destroying it. He even thought about telling Lorren that someone was carefully removing information about the Amyr from the Archives.  

But what if it's Lorren? Except instead of destroying it he locks up knowledge that the masters consider to be too dangerous for anyone else to know. Knowledge like, where the Amyr disappeared to and what the Chandrian are up to.

I suspect it's more than just Lorren, if only because the four-plate door has four keyholes.  Ususally, that sort of thing requires either four keyholders or one extremely clever Rube Goldberg contraption.  The history and current practices of the archives suggest an institutional tradition.

On the Archives

There have been at least nine different archival systems in the last three hundred years.  The dates in parentheses presume Kvothe is 25 in the frame.

• 50(60)years ago - there were four different Master Archivists within five years
  
• 45(55)years ago - which precipitates a Holy War among three scriv factions
  
• 30(40)years ago - the Holy War ends when Tolem's adherents burn the Larkin Ledgers
  
• 25(35)years ago - Tolem dies and a new Master Archivist with a new system takes over

Coincidentally around 50 years ago an alchemist used the plum bob to ruin the lives of several Aturan officials...  Tolem's death coincides with Alveron's assumption of his father's title...  I dunno if these are significant, but they suggest some sort of broader upheaval during that time.

Lorren has apparently returned to Tolem's system.^WMFc13

• The Scriptorium -translation and copying
  
• The Sorting Hall - sifting and reshelving
  
• The Buggery - decontamination
  
• Cataloger's Mew
  
• The Bindery
  
• Bolts
  
• Palimpsest
  
• Acquisitions - the opposite of busy with a map of the last known positions of desirable books and acquisition teams

The most innocent purpose of a palimpsest would be recycling pages of recently copied texts.  But I'm not sure that's what's going on there.  Remove this word or that fact, write in Nalto or whatever, and you've changed history.  He makes a point of highlighting how Nina, the amateur, was careful not to remove Tehlu or any of the angels from her stolen page from the Book of the Path.

Edited by thistlepong, 08 June 2011 - 08:34 AM.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

thistlepong, on 08 June 2011 - 08:11 AM, said:

I suspect it's more than just Lorren, if only because the four-plate door has four keyholes.  Ususally, that sort of thing requires either four keyholders or one extremely clever Rube Goldberg contraption.  The history and current practices of the archives suggest an institutional tradition..

Lorren doesn't have to be working alone. In fact he's obviously couldn't be for the reason you mentioned, plus that fact that Elodin claims to know what lies behind the door. I think, if someone is collecting and hiding knowledge about the Chandrian or Amyr, Lorren, and by extension the University would HAVE to be a part of it. There's no way you can obscure history in the Corners without manipulating the Archives. And it's completely within the nature of the University to hide knowledge they consider too dangerous for every freaking E'lir to know.

[Yallow]

But why do they have to showcase it in such a mysterious fashion. They could keep the books in their private libraries. That way no one will be able to steal a book, but someone could get beyond the Valaritas door.

Interesting thought: Valaritas sounds like Veritas, the Latin word for truth.Seems auspicious, eh?

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Yallow, on 08 June 2011 - 06:29 PM, said:

But why do they have to showcase it in such a mysterious fashion. They could keep the books in their private libraries. That way no one will be able to steal a book, but someone could get beyond the Valaritas door.

Interesting thought: Valaritas sounds like Veritas, the Latin word for truth.Seems auspicious, eh?

A determined person could steal from a private library rather easily. All you need to do is discover where it is. And If we're going to assume that the University is hiding dangerous knowledge, for example the purpose of the Chandrian, I don't think it's radical to assume that the Master might even keep themselves in the dark. The person library contain information that needs to be regularly accessed, the Valaritas door contains secrets that don't.  

And the door obviously safer. The Valaritas door presumably can only be opened by the four key holders, or an extremely powerful namer. We know that there is stone and copper in the door. Even if that's the door's entire composition, how many namers could get in? Most of the namers we have seen, sans Elodin, know just one or two names. Someone who knows the right two names would be a rarity, and they would likely need to know more. Anyone like that would have studied at the University. And if someone needed to be kept away from the door(like Devi), they could be banned/expelled.

I think you're right about the Valaritas Veritas Truth thing.

[thistlepong]

Sylvester, on 07 June 2011 - 01:55 PM, said:

Random thought about Denna's patron:

The name of "Master Ash" is suggested to Kvothe by a leaf carried by the wind...that is to say, a windblown leaf. Could that mean that her patron/his name is of the Lethani? Would that make him an Amyr, since from the vase, we know that the non-traitor is an Amyr and "remembered the Lethani"?

Maybe?  I think you're close to something there.  Other folks seem to think the wind is helping Kvothe in that scene.  I don't know if anyone has made the spinning leaf connection.

What if rather than suggesting her patron is Amyr/Lethani, it instead suggests the messenger is?  It fits a little better with our current theories about who Ash is and what he's doing.  And it avoids the uncomfortable question, "Why would an Amyr want a pro-Lanre song?"

For the purposes of the following bit, Tehlu & Pals and Selitos's Amyr are not substantially different entities.  They're linked by "Tehlu's Watchful Eye" and the temporal Tehlin church.  They may diverge in purpose and practice as well as appearance and aspect, but they come from the same place and they somehow spanned a 3000 year gap between the end of the Creation War and the establishment of Cealdish currency together.

We assume the Seven/Rhinta/Chandrian left in NotW because Tehlu & Pals approached.  Then Kvothe has a weird dream.  The Seven apparently attack the Mauthen Farm.  Again the only survivor has a weird dream; a dream she's sure was sent by Tehlu.  A Lethani Leaf helping Kvothe identify Denna's patron would fit nicely with Tehlin dreams.  It kind of looks like supernatural aid.

Dune, on 08 June 2011 - 06:24 PM, said:

Lorren doesn't have to be working alone. In fact he's obviously couldn't be for the reason you mentioned, plus that fact that Elodin claims to know what lies behind the door. I think, if someone is collecting and hiding knowledge about the Chandrian or Amyr, Lorren, and by extension the University would HAVE to be a part of it. There's no way you can obscure history in the Corners without manipulating the Archives. And it's completely within the nature of the University to hide knowledge they consider too dangerous for every freaking E'lir to know.

I wasn't necessarily contradicting you; just providing some background.  But why would they consider the fact that the Pontifex, and not Emperor Nalto, dispanded the Amyr dangerous?  Have they believed that to be the case for 300 years?  If so, why is there so much chaos regarding shelving and classification?  If the Masters always believed this someone like Hemme would be enraged by the incompetence.  If it's a new practice, say Tolem's, is the door new?

[Spaceman Hobbes]

thistlepong, on 09 June 2011 - 08:38 AM, said:

I wasn't necessarily contradicting you; just providing some background.  But why would they consider the fact that the Pontifex, and not Emperor Nalto, dispanded the Amyr dangerous?  Have they believed that to be the case for 300 years?  If so, why is there so much chaos regarding shelving and classification?  If the Masters always believed this someone like Hemme would be enraged by the incompetence.  If it's a new practice, say Tolem's, is the door new?

I have a feeling the answer to that lies behind the Valaratis door. But if the Pontifex was killed by the Amyr following his proclamation, then the casual student of history would assume that the Amyr got continued on after being formally disbanded.

As for the chaos, I think there are two potential answers to this. Either the cataloging system used is solely at the discretion of the Master Archivist, while the books behind the door fall under the purview of the University as a whole. Or maybe chaos is encouraged. If you're trying to fill the largest, most important library in the world with false or contradictory information your task would be much easier if everything was a jumbled mess.

[thistlepong]

Dune, on 09 June 2011 - 11:17 AM, said:

I have a feeling the answer to that lies behind the Valaratis door. But if the Pontifex was killed by the Amyr following his proclamation, then the casual student of history would assume that the Amyr got continued on after being formally disbanded.

As for the chaos, I think there are two potential answers to this. Either the cataloging system used is solely at the discretion of the Master Archivist, while the books behind the door fall under the purview of the University as a whole. Or maybe chaos is encouraged. If you're trying to fill the largest, most important library in the world with false or contradictory information your task would be much easier if everything was a jumbled mess.

The task would be much easier the way they appear to be attacking it at present: catalog, redact, recopy, reshelve.  A jumbled mess leaves originals, illuminated maniscripts, and dangerous truths for, how did you put it, "every freaking E'lir" to find lying about.  Multiple cataloging systems, high turnover, and shelving wars do not suggest a unified purpose.  These things suggest at least confusion, at most a struggle for control.

Moreover, the theory suggests the entire University is an Amyr institution.  These were the poepl responsible for carrying out Tehlin justice and the Iron Law of Atur.  The same people who razed Caluptena, the previous site of enlightened learning, who burned Arcanists, folks with knacks, gingers...  It doesn't fit well.

Assuming Kvothe gets in, it's also kind of anticlimactic.  Kvothe gets in and finds shelves full of books.  The alarms go off and he's boned.

There's a good case for Lorren having ulterior motives, but not fot the entire University - even the entire Arcanum.  Yet, anyway.

[Gaston de Foix]

thistlepong, on 09 June 2011 - 12:27 PM, said:

The task would be much easier the way they appear to be attacking it at present: catalog, redact, recopy, reshelve.  A jumbled mess leaves originals, illuminated maniscripts, and dangerous truths for, how did you put it, "every freaking E'lir" to find lying about.  Multiple cataloging systems, high turnover, and shelving wars do not suggest a unified purpose.  These things suggest at least confusion, at most a struggle for control.

Moreover, the theory suggests the entire University is an Amyr institution.  These were the poepl responsible for carrying out Tehlin justice and the Iron Law of Atur.  The same people who razed Caluptena, the previous site of enlightened learning, who burned Arcanists, folks with knacks, gingers...  It doesn't fit well.

Assuming Kvothe gets in, it's also kind of anticlimactic.  Kvothe gets in and finds shelves full of books.  The alarms go off and he's boned.

There's a good case for Lorren having ulterior motives, but not fot the entire University - even the entire Arcanum.  Yet, anyway.

I'm coming around out to the view that Valaritas is a final step of initiation in terms of the university; the other explanations don't quite fly.

If the Amyr as an organisation were ever affiliated with the Church and there's considerable evidence that it was, it makes sense they controlled the Tehlin church. It really can't be any other way.

If so, the Amyr really did burn Caluptena.