474 replies to this topic

[Abaddon]

Kaitscralt, on 10 May 2011 - 11:47 AM, said:

What you are seeing is similar to the near-perfect LOTR film adaptations being dismissed by nerds for not having the pointless Tom Bombadil (sp?) scene in it

Okay, let's be honest here.  Excising the Bombadil sequence was common sense and very correctly done.  IMHO if Tolkien had an editor it would have been removed from the book, with maybe a very truncated sequence remaining, with the large majority of it moved to an appendix.  It really sucks the life out of the narrative even in the books and in a 2 hour (okay 3 hour) movie would have been impossible to include at any rate.  And it's completely inconsequential to the story except as background coloration.

That said, calling the LOTR movies "near-perfect" is ignoring the travesty of what they did with Elrond and Arwin.  It'd be like taking the Blackfish and having him come in and become a major military player, also making him totally pissy and yelling all the time.  And it'd be like taking some random bit-player female character and turning her into a major character around which the central storyline revolves.  We're talking major surgery here and not for the better.  If they do something that extreme to ASOFI, I think everyone around here will scream bloody murder, and rightfully so.

SO FAR, this adaptation has been VERY faithful to the books, much more so than the later LOTR movies (really ROTK was the worst offender).

(As an aside, the LOTR movies, plot/character surgery aside, are stunning and are visually and aurally far more than I ever could have expected from anything based on the books.  Lavish, stunning, etc are all faint praise for what they were able to accomplish).  Game of Thrones naturally falls a little short here due to having half the budget for 3-4 times the runtime, but that's to be expected and it still looks amazing to me).

[ser_nerdick]

Geez I don't know. I keep hoping each successive episode makes me forget my issues with the previous ones, but so far I don't see a lot of improvement.

In this episode:
- I agree with others that the tourney was way, way too small. I've seen bigger gatherings at quiznos. This was supposed to be a major event for the realm.
- A lot of added scenes not in the book, some good (Ned's walk in the park with Littlefinger), some not so good (Ned and Cersei, Jon and Sam)
- I pictured Sam as being much fatter. It doesn't help that Jon has such a fat face; you need a real blimp to seem obese compared to him
- I'm really not impressed with Cersei. IMO the way Headey plays the character, Cersei has ZERO sex appeal, and it's not just a matter of her physical features. She seems to have the cold, calculating bitchy part down, just not the sexiness. And why is Cersei always covered in some enormous quilt-looking thing? In the North it made sense because she could be cold. In palm-tree lined Kings Landing, not so much.

The sets are starting to bother me. Everything seems so... small. I don't think it's just a book/show comparison either. I'm watching Rome for the first time and I don't get the same cramped sound-stagey feeling at all with Rome.

It's good to see that the show is generally being received well by folks though.

[edit] Oh, and Hodor is way too old.

Edited by ser_nerdick, 10 May 2011 - 01:51 PM.

[Xenophon]

Maltaran, on 10 May 2011 - 01:06 PM, said:

[pedant mode]Tyrion would be heir apparent, as there's no possibility of him being displaced by a birth higher up the line of succession. An heir presumptive would be someone like the brother of a childless lord - as things are currently he is the heir, but would be displaced if the lord has a son.[/pedant mode]

Thanks Maltaran!

Ok, so is the general view that Tyrion just wanted to be polite by bribing someone rather than pulling rank?  I'm still a little surprised though, that everyone just remains seated and eating when the son of a Great Lord walks into the room.  This seems far more egalitarian than I would expect given the political structure, and how everyone was bowing and scraping to Robert when he arrived at Winterfell.

[NW Deserter]

Was rewatching some scenes and I saw an awesome line in the Jaime/Jory exchange that I missed before:

Jaime: "I saw the youngest of the Greyjoy lads at Winterfell. Like seeing a shark on a mountaintop."
Jory: "Theon. He's a good lad."
Jaime: "I doubt it."

[Abaddon]

Xenophon, on 10 May 2011 - 01:50 PM, said:

Ok, so is the general view that Tyrion just wanted to be polite by bribing someone rather than pulling rank?  I'm still a little surprised though, that everyone just remains seated and eating when the son of a Great Lord walks into the room.  This seems far more egalitarian than I would expect given the political structure, and how everyone was bowing and scraping to Robert when he arrived at Winterfell.

We're in the riverlands, right?  So there is no direct relationship between Tyrion and the folks at the inn.  In contrast, Robert is King of the Seven Kingdoms and the direct ruler of everyone within.  They're not really comparable situations.

If we saw Edmure come in, I think we'd see more of a response.  And when Catelyn is revealed, even though she is now a Stark and not a Tully, we see far more deference there than to Tyrion.  Which is appropriate.

[NW Deserter]

Xenophon, on 10 May 2011 - 01:50 PM, said:

Thanks Maltaran!

Ok, so is the general view that Tyrion just wanted to be polite by bribing someone rather than pulling rank?  I'm still a little surprised though, that everyone just remains seated and eating when the son of a Great Lord walks into the room.  This seems far more egalitarian than I would expect given the political structure, and how everyone was bowing and scraping to Robert when he arrived at Winterfell.

I really don't think it's that surprising...just about all of those men are either sellswords, neutral travelers who couldn't give a fuck which lord it is, or Tully bannermen. The first two can pretty much only be bought or bartered with, and the third group has no reason to be especially friendly to a Lannister, let alone the misshapen, disliked member of the family.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

A thought just occurred to me. There's no reason that they couldn't have the scene between Sansa and the Hound in season 2 instead. Sansa would be too afraid to let on that she already heard the story from LF, so it could still play out like it did in the book. With it being in season 2, it'd also have the nice benefit of reminding the viewers of the Hound's backstory as some of them might have forgotten in from season 1, and some people might be watching season 2 without getting around to watching season 1 first (though they'd probably be in the minority).

[KarentheUnicorn]

Mellisandra, on 10 May 2011 - 02:11 PM, said:

A thought just occurred to me. There's no reason that they couldn't have the scene between Sansa and the Hound in season 2 instead. Sansa would be too afraid to let on that she already heard the story from LF, so it could still play out like it did in the book. With it being in season 2, it'd also have the nice benefit of reminding the viewers of the Hound's backstory as some of them might have forgotten in from season 1, and some people might be watching season 2 without getting around to watching season 1 first (though they'd probably be in the minority).

Yea, I suppose they could do a revisit for next season, but I don't know, hopefully we'll get something in the next one; wait...episode 5...that mean we're gonna be halfway *cries* this season is to short already.

Bugger HBO for having short seasons. Steals truebloods tag; waiting sucks, both weekly and seasonally.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

This wasn't my favorite episode, but I still enjoyed it quite a bit.  

What I liked:

1.  Tyrion, Jon, Daenerys and Littlefinger were all stellar portrayals this week.  Still satisfied-to-thrilled with the casting to this point.  These four have stepped their game up the most since their first appearances.  Arya, Jorah, Varys & others solid as ever in slightly smaller roles this week.

2.  Loved the way they handled the 3-eyed crow by removing the complexity of Bran's book dreams while retaining the air of mystery.  It was a quick, memorable "WTF?" moment that planted a seed.  Couldn't have been done any better IMHO.  

3.  Hodor!  I think Nairn will do a great job in the role.  The grey hair understandably threw some folks but I wasn't bothered by it.  He doesn't look "old," to me, but like a 30-something dude with grey hair (they exist).  A few years older than book Hodor (20s) but that's consistent with the other characters.

4.  Samwell Tarly wasn't quite what I was expecting looks wise but was well-played enough for me not to mind.  He and Jon already have a good chemistry going.  

5.  Tyrion's capture was wonderfully executed.  I would've preferred the house sigils easier to spot, but everything else in that scene was perfect.

6.  Tyrion/Theon exchange was excellent and book-worthy (though not taken from the book)  I dug the reference to Theon's uncles being responsible for destroying the Lannister fleet.

7.  Many other nice little references to please book readers (Jaime & Jory talking about Thoros at Pyke, Doreah's faceless man, Targaryens riding dragons from Valyria, Jorah calling Rhaegar the "last Dragon").  

8.  It was nice to see Ghost & Grey Wind.  Hopefully we'll see more of both in future episodes.


What I didn't like

1.  Disappointed they didn't manage to fit all the tournament scenes into this week (or at least fit in something extra.  Archery?  Thoros vs. Beric?).  The tournament was something a lot of people were looking forward to and it felt kind of rushed and underwhelming.  Tons of people think that one scene is all we're going to see of this grand Hand's Tourney that costs 80,000 gold.  I didn't mind the exclusivity of the bleachers but the standing-room crowd of smallfolk looked much too sparse.

2.  Viserys/Doreah bathtub scene had some good moments but was too damn long.  The interminable dragon-naming crap was just not necessary and felt like filler.  We already know Viserys is pompous, cruel ass - no need to reestablish it in a 4-minute scene that should have been cut to about 2 minutes.

3.  Sansa/Septa Mordane was acted well enough and was OK as a character building scene, but sort of felt unnecessary in the grand sceme.  We didn't discover much except that Sansa doesn't know why her grandfather & uncle were put to death, and is still pissed at Ned.  Okey doke.  I'm hoping this sets up something more substantial in a future episode.

4.  I didn't mind LF getting the Hound's lines...but the timing felt a bit wrong.  Here's Sansa (and the audience) still seconds into recovering from the shock of Ser Hugh's forced tracheotomy, and BAM - LF launches into this story about Sandor & Gregor.  I dunno, it just seemed sloppy and forced.  And, as someone else has already pointed out, the extras on this show are horrendously bad.  Bunch of folks sitting there looking bored to death mere moments after a dude gets a lance to the throat.  ACT, people!  

5.  Too much exposition all around, although for the most part it was well-done.  A show this complex obviously needs a lot of expository content but they sort of overdid it this week.  I think this is an issue that will resolve itself in the coming weeks as the more action-oriented plotlines begin to take shape in earnest.

[Arya The Assassin]

Abaddon, on 10 May 2011 - 01:46 PM, said:

SO FAR, this adaptation has been VERY faithful to the books, much more so than the later LOTR movies (really ROTK was the worst offender).

I agree, I have no major complaints about the adaptation so far. I think they've done a very good job given the vast ensemble and intricate plots.

But I guess I'm one of the few people in this universe who actually think that the LOTR trilogy is overrated (although I think the first movie was quite good). Not because they omitted this character or that detail (in movie adaptations like that it becomes of secondary importance to me), but because it failed to engage my emotions and I honestly couldn't care less whether the main characters died or not.

Films like that rely heavily upon its main characters if it wants to succeed at an emotional level (and not only on a visual and aural level). This is one of the reasons why I enjoyed films such as Gladiator (2000) a lot more, because it managed to build/establish a strong, interesting main character (Maximus) who helped to drive the plot and narrative forward. You felt sympathy with the character and you cared about him (at least I did).

And this is also the reason why I enjoy GoT so far. I care about many of the characters, and although I've read the books, I look forward to seeing how the characters develop on the 'small' screen. I think the filmmakers have managed to assemble a strong cast, and this is a very important factor as well: It's one thing to read about a character in a book (and seeing that person mentally), but it's a different experience to actually see that character brought to life by a skilled actor (I'm not suggesting that visual media is superior to the written word: Only that these media each have their own strengths and weaknesses. In general, I find that books do a better job of engaging our mind and inner thoughts, while movies appeal more to our senses. I enjoy both media, but for slightly different reasons).

Quote

(As an aside, the LOTR movies, plot/character surgery aside, are stunning and are visually and aurally far more than I ever could have expected from anything based on the books. ...

Yes, in all fairness, I should say that the LOTR movies were visually and aurally spectacular.

Quote

Game of Thrones naturally falls a little short here due to having half the budget for 3-4 times the runtime, but that's to be expected and it still looks amazing to me).

The total budget for GoT (entire first season) was $60 M (estimated), and the total budget for the LOTR-trilogy was $285 M. In other words, GoT had only one fifth of the budget of LOTR. No wonder they couldn't match LOTR in terms of visual extravaganza, production design and visual effects. Nonetheless, I think they've done an astounding job given these monetary limitations (relatively speaking, of course).

(The total running time for the theatrical cuts of the LOTR trilogy is almost the same as the entire first season of GoT, BTW).

[Chirios]

Doesn't matter how much I read it, doesn't matter if I watch it, I still cannot get over how ridiculously dumb it was for Cat to arrest Tyrion.

[Lord Godric]

NW Deserter, on 10 May 2011 - 01:28 PM, said:

But he uses his Lannister name to get things...Mord, mountain clans, etc.

No, he uses his money.  Like he did at this scene at the Inn. Tyrion always uses money for everything.  For Bronn, for the clansmen, even for Shae.  It is how he operates.

[Lord Godric]

ser_nerdick, on 10 May 2011 - 01:48 PM, said:

Geez I don't know. I keep hoping each successive episode makes me forget my issues with the previous ones, but so far I don't see a lot of improvement.

In this episode:
- I agree with others that the tourney was way, way too small. I've seen bigger gatherings at quiznos. This was supposed to be a major event for the realm.
- A lot of added scenes not in the book, some good (Ned's walk in the park with Littlefinger), some not so good (Ned and Cersei, Jon and Sam)
- I pictured Sam as being much fatter. It doesn't help that Jon has such a fat face; you need a real blimp to seem obese compared to him
- I'm really not impressed with Cersei. IMO the way Headey plays the character, Cersei has ZERO sex appeal, and it's not just a matter of her physical features. She seems to have the cold, calculating bitchy part down, just not the sexiness. And why is Cersei always covered in some enormous quilt-looking thing? In the North it made sense because she could be cold. In palm-tree lined Kings Landing, not so much.

The sets are starting to bother me. Everything seems so... small. I don't think it's just a book/show comparison either. I'm watching Rome for the first time and I don't get the same cramped sound-stagey feeling at all with Rome.

It's good to see that the show is generally being received well by folks though.

[edit] Oh, and Hodor is way too old.

I think this post shows why I absolutely can not stand nit-pickers.  Jon's face is too fat?    

Enjoy the series, don't rip it apart for trivial things.

Edited by Lord Godric, 10 May 2011 - 03:55 PM.

[Lord Godric]

Xenophon, on 10 May 2011 - 01:50 PM, said:

Thanks Maltaran!

Ok, so is the general view that Tyrion just wanted to be polite by bribing someone rather than pulling rank?  I'm still a little surprised though, that everyone just remains seated and eating when the son of a Great Lord walks into the room.  This seems far more egalitarian than I would expect given the political structure, and how everyone was bowing and scraping to Robert when he arrived at Winterfell.

Well Robert is the King of the entire realm.  Tyrion is the heir to Casterly Rock (technically, although his father would never give it to him), and they aren't in the Western lands that serve Casterly Rock and the Lannisters.

[Iotun]

Having just finished reading the last 8 or so pages of the thread, I have to wonder if there's any benefit people get in coming to this forum, or seeing the show. I think the point of reading a book, or watching a TV show is trying to get immersed in the story, the characters, and to enjoy the tale told to you. People seem to be purposefully trying to see the show not to be entertained, or accept it as a story, but to be TV and movie critics. Not watching what Jon, or Dany, or Robert are doing, but how their actors are acting as them, not watching Kings Landing or the Wall, or Winterfell, but how the various sets look like these places. Why can you not see the show for what its trying to tell - the story of Westeros and the great families in it - but instead are obsessed with seeing it with what it actually objectively is - a 21st century tv production that's there to criticize and technically analyse. Are you enjoying yourselves? I had things I didn't like as well when I saw the first episode, but I have stopped caring, and just accept what I see as how the story is, and don't try to analyze the show as filmed TV.

[smegma]

I'd let Kit Harington bury his "fat" face in me anytime. That guy is gorgeous.

I dunno, I think John Bradley or whatever his name is that plays Sam is pretty heavy - at least as heavy as I pictured Sam. I think his face is what I really like though, very chubby, innocent and convincingly afraid. Great casting, in my opinion.

[Aoife]

End of Disc One, on 10 May 2011 - 01:45 PM, said:

Yeah I have no idea what they're talking about either.

I know there had been some early conjecture about his appearance being altered by Bran's basket, and so on, but... here's a picture of him from presumably later on. Joke aside, it looks like maybe he ends up injured / scarred from the bout with Osha & co?

[End of Disc One]

Jon has a fat face now?  I swear, people on the internet and their standards...

[elfish_warrior]

Another brilliant episode for me.
Tyrion handing Theon his ass on a plate was brilliant.
Ros is sounding quite the Weseros pin cushion lol
Sam and Jon on the wall was brilliant as was the snippet of Ghost that we saw.
Loved the nods to the books with mentions of Mance Rayder and Thoros of Myr.

Can't wait for the blu-ray of this series, hope the extras are immense!!

[Lord Godric]

Iotun, on 10 May 2011 - 04:10 PM, said:

Having just finished reading the last 8 or so pages of the thread, I have to wonder if there's any benefit people get in coming to this forum, or seeing the show. I think the point of reading a book, or watching a TV show is trying to get immersed in the story, the characters, and to enjoy the tale told to you. People seem to be purposefully trying to see the show not to be entertained, or accept it as a story, but to be TV and movie critics. Not watching what Jon, or Dany, or Robert are doing, but how their actors are acting as them, not watching Kings Landing or the Wall, or Winterfell, but how the various sets look like these places. Why can you not see the show for what its trying to tell - the story of Westeros and the great families in it - but instead are obsessed with seeing it with what it actually objectively is - a 21st century tv production that's there to criticize and technically analyse. Are you enjoying yourselves? I had things I didn't like as well when I saw the first episode, but I have stopped caring, and just accept what I see as how the story is, and don't try to analyze the show as filmed TV.

There are some of us who enjoy the show for the story, and don't watch to lament how much we hate everything afterwards.