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How Would You Rate Episode 104?


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110 replies to this topic

Poll: How Would You Rate Episode 104? (293 member(s) have cast votes)

What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

  1. 1 (1 votes [0.34%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.34%

  2. 2 (2 votes [0.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.68%

  3. 3 (6 votes [2.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.05%

  4. 4 (3 votes [1.02%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.02%

  5. 5 (9 votes [3.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.07%

  6. 6 (25 votes [8.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.53%

  7. 7 (39 votes [13.31%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.31%

  8. 8 (69 votes [23.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.55%

  9. 9 (98 votes [33.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.45%

  10. 10 (41 votes [13.99%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.99%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#41 Prince of Dinas Emrys

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 04:59 PM

I gave it a 9.

Many of the objections I read are from readers complaining that "non-readers won't find the exposition interesting". Apart from this being a logical fallacy called the psychologists' fallacy, in which subjective thought processes are projected onto others and taken erroneously as concrete and objective, it's also irrelevant to whether you enjoyed the show or not.

Why not let the non-readers decide for themselves whether they like it? I don't think the show could sustain such a huge viewing audience if non-readers weren't getting into it. The three non-readers we watch the show with certainly seem to like it.

#42 Daenerys

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 07:29 PM

Would you not expect the scores to drift up? Those who didn't like the first two or three are voting with their clickers.
We can't all be as clued in as you are. Thank the gods.

Good point, however I would think the vast majority of anyone reading westeros.org forums are already fairly large fans of the books, and I doubt very many of them are going to stop watching the series. Perhaps a very small handful who simply cannot accept any deviation from the books exactly as imagined by them.

#43 YoDaddy

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 07:57 PM

I'm also gonna have to say I was dissapointed in this one. The tourney was VERY unimpressive and this part of the story as a whole just didn't measure up to what I pictured. Too bad, I loved episode three. I didn't expect Hodor to be 40 either.

#44 valacirca

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 10:29 PM

Cumulative episode scores (out of 10) so far based on the poll results:

E01 = 7.65
E02 = 8.15
E03 = 7.87
E04 = 8.11

#45 nim

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 12:03 AM

Best episode yet, but still gave it just a 6.5. I have a hard time believing that non-reader fans are keeping interest at this point. Maybe my expectations are too high, but I'm constantly disappointed. This is the first episode where LF's lines don't feel completely flat, but his explanation of Sandor's burn was a bit painful. Where are Varys giggles? I also am not a big fan of Sean Bean. I know that he is supposed to come across as brooding and wary, but to me he just looks slightly confused. And I was SO excited when Hodor was called, but when he came out, was like wth?

That being said, Jon/Sam/Alliser = pure. joy. I also think Cersei is fantastic, Jaime too. And Theon - wow, was not expecting that! Great acting, and definitely looking forward to more of him.

The shows are definitely getting better, and looking forward to rating an episode a 10...

#46 McCloskey

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 12:40 AM

I thought this one was the worst so far. There was too much random and insistent exposition and the tourney was weak. I think next week will redeem it but as a reader, this was the weakest.

#47 Decius

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 01:22 AM

I disagree with some of you, the exposition is a necessary evil. I find it rather annoying, but the people who I'm watching it with (new viewers) appreciate it. Its really impossible to tell the story without it (of course sometimes it could be delivered better, but its definitely necessary and overall doesn't hurt the show).


I love backstory and exposition episodes in series. Far more than the action-stuff usually. In this case I know all the things already, which of course takes away a bit, but the acting made it still very exciting for me. This episode hit all the right buttons for me.

#48 John (Snow) Doe

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 02:05 AM

I think you're missing that a lot of people understand it's incredibly challenging to translate something to the screen from a book (particularly one written with a POV structure) and they are doing a great job. While the experience is (naturally) distilled from the book, I firmly believe that if one watches the show, they are getting a great experience (my spouse would agree... I was out of town last week and she re-watched the 3rd episode without me). They can then go to the book and flesh out back-story without many contradictions at all.

I also think the new scenes have for the most part been very well done, giving us glimpses of character interaction we could never see in the book, and in a very believable way. I am VERY pleased how well those are coming off so far as they really underscore how well the show creators understand the characters. Of course, there are a minority of cases where I don't like the changes, but overall, well done D&D.

So yeah, if it's not working for you, that's too bad. But I think people here are being honest, and I think it's a bit cheeky to suggest there's "ratings inflation" going on, when you're part of the "ratings deflation" crew just as much (I personally think both characterizations are silly; we're all just giving our honest opinions here).


I want to begin this by saying that I'm really enjoying the show and I'm extremely relieved it's been renewed for a second season. As a fan of the books, it's clear to me that the production staff has a lot of respect for the books and GRRM's vision.

However, I think that reverence is actually becoming a detriment to the show. The writers and production staff need to use the advantages inherent in the TV medium - advantages which are not available in literature - to make the story richer and more dramatic. Instead, they are sticking so closely to the book that they are falling into the trap of telling us what happens/happened instead of showing us.

As a case in point, one scene I found excruciatingly boring was Jaime and Ned's meeting in the throne room towards the beginning of Ep 3. What was the point of this scene? It was another extended dialogue scene in which history/background was laid out. Staging it between Ned and Jaime only served to establish enmity between them, but that had already been done. How much cooler would it have been for Ned to walk into the room, and then a panoramic shot of the room fades to the same room 20 years ago, showing the Starks roasting and Aerys laughing manically? It would have given us the same information in a more interesting way, using the advantages of a screen medium. Overwhelming the audience with exposition via dialogue makes for a generally boring show and alienates a lot of viewers. It threatens the longevity of the show.

Looking at the ratings, in which the lowest episode ranking (when adjusted for outliers) is close to an 8, it's pretty clear to me there's some inflation. Look at how many people, in their reviews each week, write "best episode ever". I'm enjoying this show, I think it's great - but it's not as great as it could be, for obvious reasons. Most of my friends who're watching the show as non-readers are confused and disillusioned. As fans, I think we should be most critical of the show; by handing out high praise in light of the show's shortcomings, I feel we're undermining its potential.

#49 Evil.Bubbles

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 02:47 AM

Hello all,


Non book reader here and new fan of the show.I will give this episode a 7,and most for the lack of action,or to put it better the lack of action that i wanted to see since i saw the first episode.What got me hooked to this show was the minute i saw the white walkers.Being a Resident Evil fan,i was like : zombies on snow!!??Thats amazing:D

Now since then the dialogue has been great,and i love how the explain the story so far,i especially like the story of the wolfs and horse people(im really bad with names).But i really want to see more of the white walkers and i also i did not appreciate the ending scene.

I mean why go trough all that trouble with calling on for honor and you go threaten a midget?A funny one at that?

#50 Ran

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 05:22 AM

She didn't really threaten him. She arrested him, so he can be tried and judged. :)

John Doe,

Don't come here to see what the general audience thinks. Go read the professional critics. Go read Sepinwall, who's not read the books, and who's ranking of the episodes almost exactly along the same lines as this forum is rating them. Try VanDerWerff or Poniewozik or Lacobs or McNutt, who have read the books but are also professional critics, and you'll see they quite like it too.

I don't see why the fans need to be more critical than the critics.

#51 Mistral

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 05:38 AM

I mean why go trough all that trouble with calling on for honor and you go threaten a midget?A funny one at that?


Because she thinks he tried to murder her son. Not so funny, regardless of height.

Anyway, I gave this one a 7. I found it slightly disappointing, although I'd be hard pressed to explain exactly why. I loved episode 3 - I guess I'm in a minority there, but it just seemed to flow better and there was a richness to the dialogue, an authenticity to the acting, that I feel was less apparent in episode 4.

I was surprised and put out that LF told Sansa about how the Hound got his scars. I was really looking forward to that scene when he escorts her home from the feast and tells this horrifying story himself...I don't understand why they shifted that to LF /dunno.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dunno:' /> seems like a bit of a waste of a really powerful scene. Oh well...

On the positive side, NCW is really getting his teeth into Jaime - there's an assuredness there, something simmering. I'm glued to the screen when he's on. KH is really improving as Jon - I wasn't at all impressed by him at the beginning of the series, but he's got it now /thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' /> although I agree with many that it's a shame Ghost isn't around much. The lack of direwolves generally is a real shame. The scene at Winterfell where Robb and Bran receive Tyrion was chilling in the book, as I remember it - Shaggydog half-feral, snarling, Grey Wind taking his cue, the sense of visceral fear. I missed that, although I understand why they couldn't do it for the show, if the dogs have been difficult to work with. We were just left with Robb being a bit rude and Tyrion flouncing off to the brothel /dunno.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dunno:' />

Liking Sam though. And I quite like the actor who plays Pyp, minor role notwithstanding.

#52 Zezibesh

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 05:41 AM

Other episodes have been 6's, this was a 7.

Yes, I tend to use the whole rating scale, deal with it.

#53 John (Snow) Doe

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 06:08 AM

Ran,

I call it like I see it; as a reader and a viewer, I'm entitled to an opinion.

Fans need to be critical because our feedback is obviously being noted (D&D are members of this forum) and therefore holds the potential to make the show better. I am as big a fan of the books and the show as anybody, but my honest perception is that the general audience and critics alike are overly-enamored with the novelty of this show, causing them to discount some serious flaws (similar to how "The Walking Dead" was received). Just because the show is good doesn't mean it can't be better.

Anybody who watches the show is welcome to disagree with me. However, no number of critics or viewers disagreeing with me will change my mind - the only thing that will do that is a better show.

#54 Tywin's bastard

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 06:17 AM

As a case in point, one scene I found excruciatingly boring was Jaime and Ned's meeting in the throne room towards the beginning of Ep 3. What was the point of this scene? It was another extended dialogue scene in which history/background was laid out. Staging it between Ned and Jaime only served to establish enmity between them, but that had already been done. How much cooler would it have been for Ned to walk into the room, and then a panoramic shot of the room fades to the same room 20 years ago, showing the Starks roasting and Aerys laughing manically? It would have given us the same information in a more interesting way, using the advantages of a screen medium. Overwhelming the audience with exposition via dialogue makes for a generally boring show and alienates a lot of viewers. It threatens the longevity of the show.

It's of course always a matter of opinion but I'm not at all unhappy with that we haven't gotten flashbacks. That can at times come off as cheesy storytelling so it's not a given that it would work well and I also see merit in two good actors establishing themselves, their relationship (if you don't continually build on a rivalry, it won't seem very strong or important) and history through good acting rather than showing something that only gives us part of that and at a higher cost. The flashback would put less focus on the now and more on the past, which I think is the reversed of how they want it. I understand your point about show, not tell, but I didn't find that necessary there. Then again I love good scenes with nothing but talk so my opinion if of course in that context. Flashbacks also have the problem of either having a different actor play a current role (and thus not looking particularly similar) or to use the same actors and make people wonder why they looked about the same about 16 years ago.

In short I agree that it could have been done with a flashback but not in that it would necessarily have been better, or even as good.

Looking at the ratings, in which the lowest episode ranking (when adjusted for outliers) is close to an 8, it's pretty clear to me there's some inflation. Look at how many people, in their reviews each week, write "best episode ever". I'm enjoying this show, I think it's great - but it's not as great as it could be, for obvious reasons. Most of my friends who're watching the show as non-readers are confused and disillusioned. As fans, I think we should be most critical of the show; by handing out high praise in light of the show's shortcomings, I feel we're undermining its potential.

I rather think that focusing on negatives will enhance the negative experience, just as focusing on the positives will do the opposite. I think that if a reviewer gives a grade he should talk roughly as much about the positives as the score's percentage value of the scale, and spend the rest on negatives. So I don't see why someone shouldn't hand out high praise if he really enjoyed an episode. That's after all the entire point of the show, to entertain.

As for the actual grades, there's no definition for the scale (or I've missed it) so people might very well be grading things on differently defined scales, which of course means that one has to take that into consideration when judging the importance of it.

#55 John (Snow) Doe

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 06:32 AM

Point taken Tywin's bastard. I'm not saying things have to be done with a flashback - I was just suggesting it as a way of conveying information without another dialogue scene, which IMO, this show has too many of. The power of the screen is visualization, which I don't see them emphasizing enough.

#56 Tywin's bastard

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 06:50 AM

Point taken Tywin's bastard. I'm not saying things have to be done with a flashback - I was just suggesting it as a way of conveying information without another dialogue scene, which IMO, this show has too many of. The power of the screen is visualization, which I don't see them emphasizing enough.

Yes, I understand your point and I can see merit in it. Still, as said, I just love the many calm dialog scenes so I can't really complain about that from a personal standpoint.

It's also funny how our anecdotal evidences on the show's effectiveness differ. The non-readers you've encountered have obviously been confused, while everyone I've encountered have been absolutely thrilled. Yet more proof of how much we can rely on our environments to tell a grander picture.

#57 Ser_not_appearing_yet

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 08:14 AM

Because she thinks he tried to murder her son. Not so funny, regardless of height.

Anyway, I gave this one a 7. I found it slightly disappointing, although I'd be hard pressed to explain exactly why. I loved episode 3 - I guess I'm in a minority there, but it just seemed to flow better and there was a richness to the dialogue, an authenticity to the acting, that I feel was less apparent in episode 4.

I was surprised and put out that LF told Sansa about how the Hound got his scars. I was really looking forward to that scene when he escorts her home from the feast and tells this horrifying story himself...I don't understand why they shifted that to LF /dunno.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dunno:' /> seems like a bit of a waste of a really powerful scene. Oh well...

On the positive side, NCW is really getting his teeth into Jaime - there's an assuredness there, something simmering. I'm glued to the screen when he's on. KH is really improving as Jon - I wasn't at all impressed by him at the beginning of the series, but he's got it now /thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' /> although I agree with many that it's a shame Ghost isn't around much. The lack of direwolves generally is a real shame. The scene at Winterfell where Robb and Bran receive Tyrion was chilling in the book, as I remember it - Shaggydog half-feral, snarling, Grey Wind taking his cue, the sense of visceral fear. I missed that, although I understand why they couldn't do it for the show, if the dogs have been difficult to work with. We were just left with Robb being a bit rude and Tyrion flouncing off to the brothel /dunno.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dunno:' />

Liking Sam though. And I quite like the actor who plays Pyp, minor role notwithstanding.

From what I recall, the scene between the hound and Sansa shouldn't have taken place yet. It may happen next week (just without him telling her 'how I got these scars').

#58 Carldog

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 08:54 AM

7.5

#59 Ran

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 09:08 AM

Ran,

I call it like I see it; as a reader and a viewer, I'm entitled to an opinion.


Non sequitur. No one questioned your right to your opinion.

In the end, neither your opinion or mine matters. The show doesn't live or die by how much any one person cares for it. It lives or dies by what the general audience (and to a much, much lesser degree, the critics) think. What you consider to be a better show may well be a worse show in the minds of others.

So, yeah. Doesn't matter. Words are wind, but viewership and subscriptions are golden.

#60 DemiNymph

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 09:17 AM

I gave a 9. Took off one point as I thought they should show more of the tournament. But then again, I could always watch A Knight's Tale over and over again.