120 replies to this topic

[OhDanyBoy]

DurararaFTW, on 12 May 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:

Arthur Dayne was the best bar none. Jaime thinks Dayne can take out Loras and all the other current Kingsguards with two hands tied behind his back. Ned is no Sword of Mourning, but he was at least able to keep Dayne busy while Howard Reed rolfstomped the White Bull and the other guy that was there.

Except Ned's group was 7 against the 3 Kingsguard.  So, Ned and two others kept Dayne busy while the 4 others killed Hightower and Whent.

[DurararaFTW]

Except that everyone else was dead when Howard killed Dayne. I assume he had just dealt the finishing blow on someone else before swooping in to kill the Sword of Mourning.

[madking]

Brewmaster, on 12 May 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

Yeah, I was just about to say...

My memory of the specifics may be a little fuzzy, but I thought Ned was badly outnumbered in the fight next week and him and his handful of guys cut their way through a ton of people before the end.

Ned is clearly a skilled swordsman.

iirc jaime spares neds life and orders his men to kill all of neds men. This is where jory dies and ned breaks his leg.

[DurararaFTW]

[media]http://www.youtube.c..._TQqlY3w[/media]

The verdict: Barristan>Ned>many great knights

Edited by Ran, 12 May 2011 - 01:29 PM.

[Arya The Assassin]

HBO has posted a new clip from episode 5:

Game Of Thrones: Episode 5 Sneak Preview Clip #1 (HBO)

Sean Bean is really good in this scene, I think.

[Ran]

Okay...

First, Ned: George has indicated that Ned was a competent swordsman. He's no great sword -- that was Brandon. He's like Jorah, good enough, basically. Bronze Yohn Royce kicked Ned's and Rodrik Cassel's butts, at the same time, their two against his one.

Ned's great skill was leading men and commanding armies. He is a great general of Westeros.

On the show, OTOH, he is a great swordsman -- that's how he was apparently described in the pilot script, and the fact that Jaime Lannister doesn't toally pwn him within seconds (and, no, he doesn't pwn him within seconds ) just goes to show he's supposed to be way up there. Plus, yeah, Barristans' remark in that clip -- Ned cut down a dozen great knights at the Trident? Holy crap!

Second, in the book, the specific events are that Jaime tells his guards to kill his men, and not to hurt Ned. Ned tries to save his men and attacks some Lannisters, killing and injuring some... but they were specifically told not to fight back. His injury comes from them hamstringing his horse, so that it falls on him and breaks his leg -- so it's not some big, amazing feat that he, on horseback, could do some damage on some guys on foot when their hands are tied and they aren't allowed to attack back.

Edited by Ran, 12 May 2011 - 01:30 PM.

[DurararaFTW]

Ran, on 12 May 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

Okay...

First, Ned: George has indicated that Ned was a competent swordsman. He's no great sword -- that was Brandon. He's like Jorah, good enough, basically. Bronze Yohn Royce kicked Ned's and Rodrik Cassel's butts, at the same time, their two against his one.

Ned's great skill was leading men and commanding armies. He is a great general of Westeros.

On the show, OTOH, he is a great swordsman -- that's how he was apparently described in the pilot script, and the fact that Jaime Lannister doesn't toally pwn him within seconds (and, no, he doesn't pwn him within seconds ) just goes to show he's supposed to be way up there. Plus, yeah, Barristans' remark in that clip -- Ned cut down a dozen great knights at the Trident? Holy crap!

Second, in the book, the specific events are that Jaime tells his guards to kill his men, and not to hurt Ned. Ned tries to save his men and attacks some Lannisters, killing and injuring some... but they were specifically told not to fight back. His injury comes from them hamstringing his horse, so that it falls on him and breaks his leg -- so it's not some big, amazing feat that he, on horseback, could do some damage on some guys on foot when their hands are tied and they aren't allowed to attack back.

No, Royce first hammered Ned into the ground, then passed onto Rodric.

And what the hell do you mean? They weren't attacking but they just threw themselves at Ned's sword without cause or purpose?

[Ran]

Don't know, it seems pretty clear he was fighting both. Knocked Ned down, turned to finish up with Rodrik. Perhaps it's subjective, but in any case, George has said that Brandon Stark was the great swordsman of the family, and that Ned's talents lay more in commanding men.

They "closed from both sides" to get at Ned's men. He tried to stop them. They didn't throw themselves at his sword, but he sure swung his sword at them. Note that no point is it suggested Ned is threatend with weapons or has to block any blows. What is said is that he was "cutting at phantoms in red cloaks who gave way before him." They were mostly trying to get out of the way, while also trying to kill Ned's men.

Edited by Ran, 12 May 2011 - 02:13 PM.

[DurararaFTW]

Well I'm GLAD they didn't show twenty guys without a fainstest care for their own life let a guy cut away their bodies when they have only three targets to get to between the TWENTY of them. Jesus.

[NW Deserter]

Hurray, we get Ser Barristan's name!  

[Lord Varys]

I'd really appreciate it if Ned would have not been made a good swordsman in the series. That would have really gotten his whole conflict with Jaime more on the emotional level, with both of them more being concerned about honor, rather than making it to some kind of pissing contest. Of course, the honor thing is still there, but the pissing contest is as well, and we don't really need that.

Jaime is somewhat haunted by Ned's cold stare, and that has really nothing to do with him being a good swordsman. It has to do with what Eddard Stark embodies.

As to Ser Barristan, I like him well enough, but he seems to be more some kind of aged assassin, than the embodiment of chivalry to me.

I admit that liked him and Jaime being almost friendly in episode 3, as I can see Barristan thinking fondly of the man Jaime Lannister was before he became the Kingslayer, just as Jaime liked to be remembered of the time where he was not yet the twisted guy he is now. And we should also keep in mind that Barristan joined the Baratheon regime quickly enough. Right now, he cannot be that disgusted (neither openly nor inside) by the likes of Jaime, as he himself serves the man who slew Rhaegar, and went along with the murder of Elia and her children. He is not much better than the Kingslayer if you judge him with the high standards the Kingsguard is judged under normal circumstances.

Selmy's conscience is only reappearing when Joffrey's fires him, and I really hope they make this scene as powerful as it is in the book, including his line about Stannis taking away the Iron Throne from Joffrey.

[Ran]

Dudes tried to get away, and it may well be that some of those slashes of his were blocked. No one said they didn't care for their lives -- but they were told not to hurt Ned.

Hell, I see I was even wrong about his horse being hamstrung -- it slipped and fell on him. They didn't even dare try and dismount him for fear of what Jaime would do if they broke his orders.

So, in other words, they may have defended themselves, but that was purely defensive -- no attacking back at Ned.

[Asharak]

"Ned cut down a dozen great knights at the Trident? Holy crap!"

Assuming Ned didn’t just command his troops, but actually fought in the battles (just like Robert did), I think it’s safe to assume that a lot of glory seeking enemy knights sought him out in each engagement. I doubt he ran away from them, nor that he survived on luck. I think he obviously had to be a pretty skilled swordsman to survive, though not as good as Jaime.


Ned’s ability with the sword doesn’t really change the story of book 1 though.

[Ran]

A competent swordsman is, I guess, pretty skilled. Compared to me, anyways.

[Lord Varys]

The way I picture Ned, I'd be very surprised if he did not command his army from the rear, like Stannis or Tywin, and the chances to be attacked personally are very slim if you are not actually a part of the battle, and always protected by your guardsmen.

Edited by Lord Varys, 12 May 2011 - 04:11 PM.

[Asharak]

The idea that the commander of an army would take physical part in a battle seams completely insane to me, particularly if the commander’s death would mean the war was won for the opposition. It certainly happened in history, though it hurts my head to think of the lapses in logic it involves. My impression is that it’s pretty difficult to command a battle as whole if you are personally engaged in a fight for your life.

There is a good reason why Napoleon and Wellington never got a chance to duel with each other..................Wellington was a lot taller.

[Anomandaris86]

The truth is we don't really have enough information about the rebellion and the battles fought in order to have an accurate opinion of Ned's skills either as a swordsman or a general.

[End of Disc One]

Asharak, on 12 May 2011 - 04:51 PM, said:

The idea that the commander of an army would take physical part in a battle seams completely insane to me, particularly if the commander’s death would mean the war was won for the opposition. It certainly happened in history, though it hurts my head to think of the lapses in logic it involves. My impression is that it’s pretty difficult to command a battle as whole if you are personally engaged in a fight for your life.

There is a good reason why Napoleon and Wellington never got a chance to duel with each other..................Wellington was a lot taller.

It makes a lot of sense for all-or-nothing battles at least.  Having the commander in the ranks would be a big morale boost.

[Mack Kilimaro]

Ran, on 12 May 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

Bronze Yohn Royce kicked Ned's and Rodrik Cassel's butts, at the same time, their two against his one.

Where do they tell this story? There's always something I miss, no matter how many re-reads.

[kalbear]

What's with the vid links above? The got parody?

Edited by Kalbear, 12 May 2011 - 08:33 PM.