120 replies to this topic

[HokieStone]

Ran, on 12 May 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

Plus, yeah, Barristans' remark in that clip -- Ned cut down a dozen great knights at the Trident? Holy crap!

Well, I'm not sure that Barristan means that he cut down a dozen at the trident.  Granted, they were talking about the Trident, but the way he says it - "I've seen you cut down a dozen knights" is subtly different than "I saw you cut down a dozen knights".  The former can be read as seeing that Barristan saw it over a length of time, while that latter indicates it was all at the same time.  

At least, that's how it came across to me.

[Bronn Stone]

Anomandaris86, on 12 May 2011 - 04:59 PM, said:

The truth is we don't really have enough information about the rebellion and the battles fought in order to have an accurate opinion of Ned's skills either as a swordsman or a general.

From the books, we do not.  But when GRRM is asked at a public event and says that Ned was average, that pretty much ends the debate.  He would be the one who would know.

[Ran]

Mack,

It's the first Alayne/Sansa chapter in AFfC, when she sees Bronze Yohn. She recalls his visit to Winterfell with his son Waymar, who was going to join the Watch, etc.

[DurararaFTW]

Robb Stark, Jaime Lannister, TYRION Lannister, Robert Baratheon, Joffrey Baratheon, Rhaegar Targaryen, Loras Tyrell all take part in the battles they lead. Ned Stark would be the exception to the rule.

[kalbear]

Tywin leads from the back. So does Bolton. So does Dany.

It was about as common back in historical times as it is in Westeros. Some lords preferred to, others did not. The king very rarely did, but there's a reason the king had kingsguard after all.

[DurararaFTW]

Tywin's old, Bolton is noted to be overly cautious, Dany's a guuurl.

[kalbear]

Tywin led from the rear for as long as he's been a warrior. He's never considered leading from the front because it's too chaotic and he can't make good decisions there.

Again, it's not a set in stone thing. Some leaders like leading from the front, others lead from the back. Both are effective depending on the person.

[DurararaFTW]

Ran, on 12 May 2011 - 03:33 PM, said:

Dudes tried to get away, and it may well be that some of those slashes of his were blocked. No one said they didn't care for their lives -- but they were told not to hurt Ned.

Hell, I see I was even wrong about his horse being hamstrung -- it slipped and fell on him. They didn't even dare try and dismount him for fear of what Jaime would do if they broke his orders.

So, in other words, they may have defended themselves, but that was purely defensive -- no attacking back at Ned.

Again, do we REALLY want to see that string of epic failures on television.

Kalbear, on 13 May 2011 - 03:29 AM, said:

Tywin led from the rear for as long as he's been a warrior. He's never considered leading from the front because it's too chaotic and he can't make good decisions there.

Again, it's not a set in stone thing. Some leaders like leading from the front, others lead from the back. Both are effective depending on the person.

Can I get a quote for that?

Edited by DurararaFTW, 13 May 2011 - 03:37 AM.

[SerArthurHeath]

DurararaFTW, on 12 May 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:

Arthur Dayne was the best bar none. Jaime thinks Dayne can take out Loras and all the other current Kingsguards with two hands tied behind his back. Ned is no Sword of Mourning, but he was at least able to keep Dayne busy while Howard Reed rolfstomped the White Bull and the other guy that was there.

Whilst we know Dayne was very good and Ned at least didn't die,

A) I think Jaime was exaggerating because he was annoyed at Loras and how Loras reminded him of his own young self and he wanted to put him in his place

in a world where fighting multiple decent opponents is depicted as very very hard, going in 7 on 3 and losing 5 men does not back up the suggestion that any of the 7 were exactly amazing. Unless you think Ned fought Dayne and the others split 6 vs 2. In which case there would have been at least 2 left at the end anyway (almost certainly more with those odds) and it still would have ended up with 3 vs Dayne.

It's not important but I do think there is very little evidence for Ned being a great fighter in the books. Jon might be but he might have Dayne blood, or Stark blood that is not Ned's.

[DurararaFTW]

SerArthurHeath, on 13 May 2011 - 03:41 AM, said:

Whilst we know Dayne was very good and Ned at least didn't die,

A) I think Jaime was exaggerating because he was annoyed at Loras and how Loras reminded him of his own young self and he wanted to put him in his place

in a world where fighting multiple decent opponents is depicted as very very hard, going in 7 on 3 and losing 5 men does not back up the suggestion that any of the 7 were exactly amazing. Unless you think Ned fought Dayne and the others split 6 vs 2. In which case there would have been at least 2 left at the end anyway (almost certainly more with those odds) and it still would have ended up with 3 vs Dayne.

It's not important but I do think there is very little evidence for Ned being a great fighter in the books. Jon might be but he might have Dayne blood, or Stark blood that is not Ned's.

I think there's evidence for him being a good fighter in the books. And yeah, the battle ended with Howard Reed and Ned Stark vs Arthur Dayne. if the only reason Nd stark wasn't effortlessly cut dow is because of Howard Reed's intervention AND Arthur Dayne being busy killing another of his friends, then I'm quite disappointed in Ned for not mentioneing the friend that needed to die to make up for his lack of skill.

And Jaime maybe exaggerating but he still singled out Arthur Dayne rather then Barristan the Bold or the White Bull or Rhaegar Targaryan or Robert Baratheon all of which he served because the Sword of Mourning was the best.

[kalbear]

Quote

Can I get a quote for that?

From AGOT paperback, 684:

Quote

Lord Tywin almost always chose to command the reserve; he would take the high ground and watch the battle unfold below him, committing his forces when and where they were needed most.

[MinDonner]

Wait. Is this turning into another "Who is the best fighter in Westeros?" thread?

Anyway, looking forward to seeing the Eyrie in the opening credits this week.

[Pan Psor]

Few words about Ned vs Jaime fight:

I hope after this fight there will be clear that Jaime is much better figter(or just better). I don't want my friends(who didn't read books) saying "Jaime had luck" or "Ned is better, Jaime run away" or something like that. And people must know that Jaime is great, because this is very important to his storyline.

Edited by Pan Psor, 13 May 2011 - 05:59 AM.

[Lord Varys]

Tyrion never was a general, just a guy who was supposed to lead a sortie, and a bunch of expendable guys in a battle. He had not the chance to lead from the rear, because circumstances and Gregor and his father commanded him to fight in the battle.

Robert may have lead from the front, that much I admit, but about Rhaegar I'm not sure. If Robert broke Rhaegar's lines at the Trident, it makes sense that would/could meet on the battlefield. There is no indication that they met because they were both at the front of their armies.

Robb, Loras, and the young Jaime were just stupid boys, in a way, and both Loras and Jaime never were good generals. They are great warriors, but essentially stupid generals. Robb did lead by example, but he was not leading from the front. Else he would not have been surrounded by his guards when Jaime attacked his standard in the Whispering Wood.

Tywin and Stannis most likely are both knights, but they don't care about these stuff. They command. And to command you have to see what is going on the battlefield, not be in the heat of battle. And I really don't see Ned to be as stupid as to lead from the front. Especially as he was only an average sword. That would be way too risky. Robert was an exceptional warrior, and he did not care what might happen to him, but not Ned. Ned looked on the numbers, the ground, and the best position for battle.

[DurararaFTW]

Ned would have lead the company against Ser Gregor to put him to the sword personally, if his leg wasn't broken. And this was when he's ruling the Seven Kingdoms. He believes in a very hands on leadership.

[Chirios]

I always got the impression that Ned was an above average general, but an average swordsman and that's where

Spoiler

Robb got his tactical skills from

[HokieStone]

DurararaFTW, on 13 May 2011 - 04:14 AM, said:

I think there's evidence for him being a good fighter in the books. And yeah, the battle ended with Howard Reed and Ned Stark vs Arthur Dayne. if the only reason Nd stark wasn't effortlessly cut dow is because of Howard Reed's intervention AND Arthur Dayne being busy killing another of his friends, then I'm quite disappointed in Ned for not mentioneing the friend that needed to die to make up for his lack of skill.

And Jaime maybe exaggerating but he still singled out Arthur Dayne rather then Barristan the Bold or the White Bull or Rhaegar Targaryan or Robert Baratheon all of which he served because the Sword of Mourning was the best.

Alright, I've got to nitpick here, because I've seen you call him "Howard" a few times now.  It's Howland Reed.  And it's the Sword of the Morning...unless the guy who wields Dawn is always sad about someone's death.

And I don't think we know anything about how the battle at the Tower of Joy played out.  Just that it was 7 vs. 3 and only Ned and Howland came out alive.

[Mazikeen]

I don't believe that we'll see the Tower of Joy fight. You'd have to cast some pretty impressive actors for just one scene (people who actually look like they could be The Sword of the Morning or The White Bull), not to mention 3 full Kingsguard armours, the Dawn sword (which is supposed to be all sorts of awesome) and so on. While it would be a very nice scene to see, it's a little heavy on the budget and it doesn't advance the story in any significant way, it only provides back story. Which is important, yes, but I don't think it'll be considered important enough to spend so much money and effort on it.

Edited by Mazikeen, 13 May 2011 - 11:25 AM.

[DurararaFTW]

HokieStone, on 13 May 2011 - 11:09 AM, said:

Alright, I've got to nitpick here, because I've seen you call him "Howard" a few times now.  It's Howland Reed.

Sorry, I guess I read it wrong.
  

Quote

And it's the Sword of the Morning...unless the guy who wields Dawn is always sad about someone's death.

As endlessly better as that would be to the man's personal nickname being rendered complely redundant by his ancestral weapon, again sorry.

Quote

And I don't think we know anything about how the battle at the Tower of Joy played out.  Just that it was 7 vs. 3 and only Ned and Howland came out alive.

We know Ned remarked how he would have been by Dayne if not for Howland.

Edited by DurararaFTW, 13 May 2011 - 11:51 AM.

[Anomandaris86]

Mazikeen, on 13 May 2011 - 11:25 AM, said:

I don't believe that we'll see the Tower of Joy fight. You'd have to cast some pretty impressive actors for just one scene (people who actually look like they could be The Sword of the Morning or The White Bull),

Those guys could certainly return for Jaime flashbacks in season 3. Maybe later as well.

Quote

not to mention 3 full Kingsguard armours,

Haven't we already seen those on Barristan and Jaime?

Quote

While it would be a very nice scene to see, it's a little heavy on the budget and it doesn't advance the story in any significant way, it only provides back story. Which is important, yes, but I don't think it'll be considered important enough to spend so much money and effort on it.

There's several important things to be seen from that scene. First, we get to see what the best of the best are like in Westeros, which puts Ned more in perspective. More importantly, we see what the Kingsguard used to mean. So far we've seen how Ned holds Jaime in contempt for killing Aerys, and some new viewers are already like "so what, Ned and Robert rebelled as well." But in that scene we will see just how seriously the "true" knights of the kingsguard take their oaths, to the point where they fulfill their duty even after the king and all his family are already dead. I don't remember the actual dialogue but I do remember Ned tells them the king is dead and they say they don't care. It gives us a glimpse into what Ned views as an honourable opponent. And again, how the kingsguard now has declined, so when the Hound gets promoted and he isn't even a knight viewers might better understand just what has happened. Anyway, that's my two cents. I agree it would be an expensive scene to shoot, but not a waste. One thing they could do is simply have the dialogue leading up to the fight and then skip the fight, as it is in the book. I could live with that. But we need that dialogue.