Stannis, raging hypocrite?

[Été]

Ete, did you think that thru? He's an idiot because he can't understand people, but he's only around because he doesn't have what takes for intrigue?

He might not relate well to people, but that doesn't mean he doesn't understand them.

No. He's been too smart to get trapped like Ned by other's plots, he's been too smart to rely on those who are untrustworthy, he's been too smart to get trapped anywhere

He's seen what happens to the lazy, the hedonistic, the trusting, the overconfident, and learned.

His major defeat, at KL, came because Highgarden took the side of the Lannisters, and that was thanks to Loras' hatred, and LF plotting.

That's true; I've been a bit harsh. But I think Stannis' perception as an outsider has been a much greater strength so far than any ability to outwit/outmaneuver his rivals. The only other pretender he's managed to defeat was Renly, and both times that was entirely Melisanre's doing. I see him as more of a survivor than a winner.

And briefly returning to Davos, he was richly rewarded, but really - wouldn't you have thrown in a pardon?

[Gurkhal]

And briefly returning to Davos, he was richly rewarded, but really - wouldn't you have thrown in a pardon?

Well he was pardoned as I remeber it. The normal punishment for smuggling is death, so losing parts of the fingers don't seem to shabby. The thing was that Stannis wasn't ready to let him get off the hook for his criminal past entirely, but had to be punished in some way.

[iamthedave]

On Davos: This is Stannis' greatest merit.

Can you think of any Southern lord who would treat Davos with the respect Stannis does? Davos is practically his number one advisor. Stannis has his wife, Mellissandre, and dozens of high born lords and ladies giving him advice.

His response? Wait for Davos, tell him all of that and see what he says.

That speaks volumes about the kind of man Stannis is, and it's why it's so heartbreaking watching him slowly slide away from Davos. Davos is almost the living embodiment of Stannis' virtue.

[Lord Varys]

I don't really see Stannis slide away from Davos as of now. There was a rift between these two, after the Battle on the Blackwater, but that was due to the fact that Stannis thought he had died with his hopes, and that he was way to depressed to care very much about him (or what Lord Alester was doing in his name). They - probably Melisandre - told him that Davos was back from the dead on done in one of his cells, but it took him awhile to recover from his defeat.

Afterwards, Stannis made Davos Lord of the Rainwood and his Hand - should Stannis prevail, Davos Seaworth is going to be the second most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms, and House Seaworth might end up becoming a Great House of Westeros. Stannis most likely would give Davos Casterly Rock, Highgarden, or even Storm's End if he and Shireen would finally sit securely on the Iron Throne.

And it was Davos who convinced Stannis to go to the Wall. That was Stannis' single most important decision since he declared himself King. Whatever Davos' mission is in ADwD, we can assume that his mission will be of the utmost importance for Stannis' cause, which is why he gave it to his most trusted advisor and 'friend'.

He has most certainly not send him from his side on a fool's errand, to get rid of him or his moral compass. If he would have considered Davos as an annoyance, he had executed him back in ASoS with Lightbringer. 'Evil Stannis' most certainly would have done this, and would have still gone to the Wall, whereas sparing Davos' life at this point actually shows us that Stannis is really capable of mercy. Davos did commit a crime, and he betrayed his King by getting Edric Storm away. Stannis had every right to execute him. In his mind, Davos' betrayal would not be that different from Alester's. Alester tried to make a deal he should and could have known his King would never go along with. That is why he did not talk to Stannis about it. Davos did something similar, as he did know that Stannis did not wish for Edric to leave Dragonstone. And he did really insult Stannis by showing that he did not trust him when he spirited Edric away.

So the fact that Stannis did not fire or execute Davos shows us how much he likes that man.

[Knight of the Teabags]

Well he was pardoned as I remember it. The normal punishment for smuggling is death, so losing parts of the fingers don't seem to shabby. The thing was that Stannis wasn't ready to let him get off the hook for his criminal past entirely, but had to be punished in some way.

Yes Stannis effectively commuted Davos' 'sentence', weighing the good deeds against the bad - which is quite a revolutionary judicial concept in Westeros where the usual process is you get told that you're guilty then they tell you what tradition says your punishment should be. Incidentally to understand why some form of punishment was necessary you only have to look as far as Stannis' brother Robert who (other than Targaryens) pardoned just about everybody without any care to their crimes and we all know how well that turned out...

[Nukelavee]

There is no getting around it - Stannis became one of my favourite characters, I really enjoy any appearance he makes now.

Oddly - I wish we had more looks at Tywin, too, because I have a feeling he was just as complex and interesting.

[C.T. Phipps]

Oddly - I wish we had more looks at Tywin, too, because I have a feeling he was just as complex and interesting.

Tywin is one of those not at all rare lords and ladies who believed terror was a viable tool for monarchs.

Sadly, he applied it to his children.

[Smashing Praise]

Tywin is one of those not at all rare lords and ladies who believed terror was a viable tool for monarchs.

Sadly, he applied it to his children.

Tywin was what feudalism always needs: an amazing personality. He single handedly restored the Lannister name, was the most skilled acting hand we've had the pleasure of reading about, a brilliant tactician on and off the battlefield - among many other achievements. He was also widely respected, and yes, feared. Tywin achieved whatever he wanted in life. His daughter was queen, his son a great knight. Compare this to Robert, a drunken fool and poor leader. Or Eddard, who brought his entire family to ruin. Tywin is a man in a million.

Unfortunately, nothing could change that his first two children are largely selfish and unconcerned with their family's well being, while his youngest is a stuck up, paranoid jerk who demonizes every member of his family (and society, for that matter) because he came out a grotesque, yet loves to throw around the fact that he's a Lannister to every person he meets. He's not father of the year, no, but perhaps that's because he was too busy building a LEGACY to give his family after he passes.

[C.T. Phipps]

He's not father of the year, no, but perhaps that's because he was too busy building a LEGACY to give his family after he passes.

It's ironic, because in feudalism, FAMILY is your legacy. Tywin managed to get all of his pieces in play, but the pieces were (to the one) completely unwilling to move in the places he needed them to.

Cersei is the most power hungry but simultaneously the most inept.

Tywin bet everything on Jaime as his heir but Jaime wants nothing to do with it.

Tyrion is the perfect son except for the fact that Tywin committed a monstrous crime against him that sealed his betrayal.

[King Ned Stark]

On Stannis, maybe hypocrite is not the precise word, but he seems to have a "win at all costs" mentality, that, for me, doesn't mesh with his own sense of justice and honor. It may be that comes from his "middle child syndrome", he seemed petulant over Renly getting Storm's End and Ned Stark getting the Hand.

But saying he was smart for outliving the other kings? He played a clandestine role in the demise of them all, if I remember correctly. Without Mel's meddling, Renly smashes him in the stormlands, and he is nought but an afterthought.

[Smashing Praise]

It's ironic, because in feudalism, FAMILY is your legacy. Tywin managed to get all of his pieces in play, but the pieces were (to the one) completely unwilling to move in the places he needed them to.

Cersei is the most power hungry but simultaneously the most inept.

Tywin bet everything on Jaime as his heir but Jaime wants nothing to do with it.

Tyrion is the perfect son except for the fact that Tywin committed a monstrous crime against him that sealed his betrayal.

It really is the greatest tragedy of Tywin's life that his children whom he wanted to give everything turned out like they did. I can't argue that Tywin was unfair to Tyrion, but Tyrion has been at least a bit guilty every step of the way. Tywin had Tyrion's wife gang raped, but Tyrion is a high lord's son, and figured he was exempt from an arranged marriage fit to his station an family's benefit. Tywin may be unable to compromise about giving him the Rock, but Tyrion is also an indulgent, embarrassing man despite all his cunning, with serious psychological problems. Tyrion's intelligence may see monetary profits for the Rock, but the fact is that no one would take Tyrion seriously after Tywin passed because of both his disabilities, but also his behavior. At least Jaime could have had an underling (or even Tyrion) take care of the finances and whatnot while still being bale to command respect and instill fear in people. It also begs the question, can Tyrion have normal, healthy heirs? Can they find a high lord's daughter to carry them? Tywin could never know the answers to this, thus could never give Tyrion the inheritance. Tywin may go to extremes, but he is always at least a bit justified in doing so.

[C.T. Phipps]

In Tywin's case, having the 14 year old's marriage dissolved and Tyrion thrashed by one of his guards would have been (by Medieval standards) an appropriate reaction.

In Tywin's case, the reaction probably lead to Tyrion growing up the traumatized man-ho he did.

But yes, the real issue is that Jaime really wanted to be a Kingsguard and Tywin was in denial the entire time that his son didn't WANT Casterly Rock. Tywin saw himself in Jaime but failed to realize Jaime was nothing like him. Not just in finances either. Jaime is a warrior but has about the same level of political interest as Ned Stark.

This doesn't even get into the fact that Tywin seems willfully blind to his children carrying on an incestuous relationship.

It's a pity that Tywin couldn't just name his brother his heir.

[iamthedave]

On Stannis, maybe hypocrite is not the precise word, but he seems to have a "win at all costs" mentality, that, for me, doesn't mesh with his own sense of justice and honor. It may be that comes from his "middle child syndrome", he seemed petulant over Renly getting Storm's End and Ned Stark getting the Hand.

But saying he was smart for outliving the other kings? He played a clandestine role in the demise of them all, if I remember correctly. Without Mel's meddling, Renly smashes him in the stormlands, and he is nought but an afterthought.

Storm's End was his by right, and Robert gave it to Renly specifically to piss Stannis off. The difference between Stannis and other lords is that rather than polish his grudges in secret and silence and wait for some subtle revenge, he just points out loudly and repeatedly that he should have been given it because that's what he's owed.

[Alexia]

Storm's End was his by right, and Robert gave it to Renly specifically to piss Stannis off.

No, it wasn't. Storm's End was Joffrey/Tommen's by right. Robert showed an unprecedented amount of generosity in giving Stannis Dragonstone (the usual lordship held by the Crown Prince) and Renly Storm's End. He could have told them both to get fudged and held the castles/lordships in trust for his own sons - the rightful heirs.

[Nukelavee]

I don't know if win at all costs is accurate, either. It makes it sound like Stannis sees the crown as a prize, like Renly did. The truth is, Stannis isn't looking at the throne as something he "wants", but as something he is required to hold.

Hmmm. I think I'm trying to say that the Throne is Stan's version of Brieene's Sansa quest.

Stannis is like a man who sees no choices left to him, really.

[Lord Varys]

Alexia,

well, no, Storm's End was first and foremost Robert's by right. Neither Stannis nor Renly, nor Robert's unborn sons had any claim to it. And Dragonstone was conquered by Stannis in Robert's name, and then bestowed upon him by royal decree. At the same time Robert made the boy Renly Lord of Storm's End as well. This likely happened less then a year after the Trident, immediately after Stannis took Dragonstone. Robert was not married back then, and so his unborn sons had no right to anything.

Stannis is somewhat right that the proper way for Robert would have been to give his Heir Presumptive (i.e. him) the old family lordship, Storm's End, when he took the Iron Throne, instead of passing it to their younger brother.

Stannis would not have felt the way he did about this whole thing if Robert had kept Storm's End to give to one of his sons, but giving it to Renly showed clearly that Robert favored a boy with no accomplishments more than the brother who had done everything in his power to hold that stupid castle during his Rebellion.

Being the Lord of Dragonstone might have been an honor, but it was an empty honor, and not the same as being the Prince of Dragonstone. The Prince of Dragonstone was the Crown Prince, but Stannis was always the Heir Presumptive, never the Heir Apparent (the Crown Prince), and there was no reason to believe that Robert Baratheon of all people would never father legitimate children of his own. Stannis would only inherit the Iron Throne by accident.

Both Dragonstone and Storm's End have to be given to Stannis and Renly before Robert was married or Cersei had given birth to any children. Else she would have insisted that Robert would keep both lordships for himself to bestow them on their children. And I assume Robert himself would have thought and acted this way had he already been married and fathered any 'legitimate' children, when he decided to give away Dragonstone and Storm's End.

[elanmorin]

A lot of people think that Stannis is a "Just" man and a man who is "Lawful Neutral" as opposed to "Lawful Evil" and that he's fundamentally a guy just trying to follow his own personal code of ethics to the best.

I can't say I agree.

Littlefinger, not admittedly the best judge of character, highlights for me what a complete HYPOCRITE that Stannis is about just about everything. He persecutes just about everyone who offends his code of honor but Stannis doesn't HAVE any real honor if you take note of it.

Let's do a short little examination of his actions.

* Turned against the Targaryens. Again, this is treason from the part of Stannis and the fact that he continues to act that its NEVER justified just shows what a complete liar he is about everything.

* Stannis is a kinslayer. This is something that is considered the most monstrous crime in all of Westeros and he willingly goes about it with Renly.

* Stannis turns against the Seven. His religious conversion totally appalls me because he shows here that he's willing to go with any force that provides him the kingship. Any promises or prayers he's offered in the past are clearly worthless to him.

* The fact that Stannis takes all of Renly's traitorous bannermen underneath his wing with narly a word so long as they're helping him again shows that he only cares about being king.

* Stannis is an adulterer, it's implied, sleeping with Mel instead of his wife.

I mean, seriously, Stannis observes no code of honor but an INTERPRETATION of his own that benefits him the most.

Yes, he has a lot of self-righteousness but his principles are VERY flexible in my opinion.

To answer your points briefly:

-He turned against the Targaryens because it was his duty to his house. The Targ had showed themselves to be mad tyrants who go against all laws just because they can, they wanted to wipe out the Baratheons. Such acts were well known and no one besides the lealists tought Stannis had sinned by defending his house and brother.

-He orders Mel to kill Renly, but only after Renly himself has shown himself to be an usurper for no better reason he was well liked. In his own view renly had no reason to turn against him (and he really had none besides having High Garden support).

-I don't really get what's your point here, in Westeros there are several other faiths besides that of the Seven, he converted to R'hollor... so what? Should he have stood by the Seven even when the High Septon and such declared him an usurper while he was not? I could see your point if Stannis was ever shown to be a pietous man, but he never was

-They had to swear fealty to him, but yes, he could not make enemies of all of them with a war to be fought. What you ask would have meant the end of Stannis, he may be righteous, but he's no fool.

-Implied, maybe, but not shown or proved. Moot point.

[Alexia]

LV,

Well yes, but the point still stands. Robert was not obligated to give Stannis anything and I believe that he did intend Dragonstone as an honor and that he was usually generous by the standards of the world. While it may not have been the best politics to grant Storm's End to Renly, Dragonstone did hold a greater symbolic status and I tend to think Stannis would have been just as angry had it been granted to Renly instead. Moreover, I tend to think that the very act of making Renly and Stannis great lords was unwise and characteristic of Robert's thoughtlessness, lack of political acumen, and overwhelming generosity (which, tbh, was one of his few good traits).

In summation - did Robert think it through? No. Does Stannis need to stuff it and realize that Robert was not obligated to give him anything at all and showed some generosity? Yes.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Both Dragonstone and Storm's End have to be given to Stannis and Renly before Robert was married or Cersei had given birth to any children. Else she would have insisted that Robert would keep both lordships for himself to bestow them on their children. And I assume Robert himself would have thought and acted this way had he already been married and fathered any 'legitimate' children, when he decided to give away Dragonstone and Storm's End.

The proper thing, IMO, would have been for Robert to bestow Dragonstone upon Joffery once he came of age, and at that time, restored Storm's End to Stannis. Renly could have returned to court, or just stayed at Dragonstone, or do whatever it is that youngest sons do generally. I often wonder if this was exactly what Robert would have done had he survived past Joffery's 16th name day.

On the other hand, I'm sure that Cersei would have tried her best to prevent Joffery leaving for Dragonstone...

[Lord Varys]

Well, it seems to be custom in Westeros not to accumulate titles and lordships. That means that Robert was somewhat obligated to give Storm's End to someone after he ascended the Iron Throne. I assume he could have waited until he had children of his own, it's not that unexpected that he did not. You are rewarding your loyal servants after the war, and Stannis really did deserve some reward for his resilience during the siege of Storm's End.

So I guess Stannis has a right to be pissed off, as Robert did hand out rewards after the end of the war, and you actually have a say when these rewards are given, if you are one of those who get them. Littlefinger would have been pissed off as well if he had been given Darry instead of Harrenhal after the Blackwater, and the Tyrells would have been really pissed if Tywin had made Garlan the Knight of Griffin's Roost instead of the Lord of Brightwater.

As to Dragonstone, well, Robert's main motivation to give it to Stannis apparently was that he thought he needed a strong guy there, in case of a possible return of the Targaryens to Westeros. Renly would of course not have been that strong guy at this time. Being a Baratheon Lord of Dragonstone is not that great an honor in my opinion. Dragonstone was the ancient seat of House Targaryen, they kept it because it was their home and the place where they hatched their dragons as long as they still had any, but the glamor of being the Prince of Dragonstone most likely came more from the fact that he was the Crown Prince than from the fact that he technically ruled Dragonstone.

Dragonstone is no great seat, it's rock in the sea, and the lords sworn to it are a joke when compared to the real great seats.

The Prince of Dragonstone most likely never lived on Dragonstone, by the way. He was the Crown Prince, the King would have kept him always close by his side, to teach him how to rule. The Targaryens almost certainly did rule Dragonstone through a castellan all the time. Even Stannis as Lord of Dragonstone was practically never there, as he served on Robert's Small Council for 14 years.