Why do the direwolves hate Tyrion?

[limbstan]

I'm re-reading AGOT and noticed this time around that the direwolves really do not like Tyrion at all. What do you think the significance is? Even Ghost attacks him when it's obvious that he means no harm to Jon.

I'm in the camp that Tyrion is a dragon (Targ), so it may be that the cold (ice) oriented direwolves hate the dragons (fire).

There has to be something about Tyrion in particular that pisses the wolves off. What do y'all think?

[Myrish swan]

I'm re-reading AGOT and noticed this time around that the direwolves really do not like Tyrion at all. What do you think the significance is? Even Ghost attacks him when it's obvious that he means no harm to Jon.

I'm in the camp that Tyrion is a dragon (Targ), so it may be that the cold (ice) oriented direwolves hate the dragons (fire).

There has to be something about Tyrion in particular that pisses the wolves off. What do y'all think?

Why do the direwolves hate tyrion?

They have good taste. :smoking:

[A Time for Wolves]

I always thought that the wolves were influenced by the kids' feelings. That, and Tyrion does have the potential to be Tywin Lannister come again, even if he seems to begin with a better heart.

[AquariumDrinker]

The wolves are influenced by the emotions of the Stark kids. They have no deeper understanding, just access the the subconscious thoughts and emotions of the kids.

[Red Lion of Castamere]

Well Grey Wind did snarl and growl at one of the Westerlings and Catelyn told Robb to send him away. The Westerlings did end up betraying Robb so the direwolves may have the ability to sense ill intent beyond just how the Stark children feel.

[A Time for Wolves]

They have no deeper understanding, just access the the subconscious thoughts and emotions of the kids.

Hmm, this might not necessarily be true. We know of at least one occasion when the Stark kid was ambivalent about another character until his wolf judged that character for him. Remember Bran & Co when they are in the Nightfort, and encounter Sam and Gilly? Bran is still undecided about Sam and unsure of whether to follow him to the Black Gate. Then Sam reaches out to Summer and Summer licks his fingers. Bran decides to follow Sam only after he sees that his wolf likes Sam.

It could be argued that the wolves were too young when they met Tyrion to make an independent judgment about him, and that Summer was a bit older and wiser by the time he and Bran reach the Nightfort.

[Baleraxar]

Well Grey Wind did snarl and growl at one of the Westerlings and Catelyn told Robb to send him away. The Westerlings did end up betraying Robb so the direwolves may have the ability to sense ill intent beyond just how the Stark children feel.

That doesn't necessarily require any mystical powers, though; animals are very good at reading body language. I really don't think the wolves have any special precognition about betrayal, they just notice people acting shady.

In any case, it's pretty clear that with Tyrion they were just reacting to the kids' emotions. Ghost only attacks Tyrion when Jon is angry and yelling at him, he's pretty chill the rest of the time.

[Myrish swan]

I always thought that the wolves were influenced by the kids' feelings. That, and Tyrion does have the potential to be Tywin Lannister come again, even if he seems to begin with a better heart.

Or a worse heart.

Seriously, Tywin was not above publicly humiliating his father's mistress/ whore, however, he stopped short of murdering her. Tyrion, in contrast, murders his own 18 year old paramour in bed. By painfully strangling her with a metal necklace. Of course, since GRRM clearly loathes Shae, we get no description of her suffering and gasping for breath, but we do get a description of Tyrion (the murderer's) tears. Boo hoo.

Seriously, Shae has to be the most offensively drawn character... pretty much ever.

And also: Tyrion is every bit as much of a p.o.s. as his daddy.

[Dragonfish]

Or a worse heart.

Seriously, Tywin was not above publicly humiliating his father's mistress/ whore, however, he stopped short of murdering her. Tyrion, in contrast, murders his own 18 year old paramour in bed. By painfully strangling her with a metal necklace. Of course, since GRRM clearly loathes Shae, we get no description of her suffering and gasping for breath, but we do get a description of Tyrion (the murderer's) tears. Boo hoo.

I'm not going to defend Tyrion's killing of Shae, but how on earth does this demonstrate that Tyrion starts with a "worse heart"? The entire point of the poster you were replying to was that Tyrion starts out with a better heart than Tywin, but that he has the potential to become Tywin. Doesn't your example merely prove A Time for Wolves' point?

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Ghost may have been in heightened alert because of his Jon was reacting.

[Free Northman]

Some here will tell you that Tyrion had simply not washed that day, or that the scent of a passing stray dog happend to cling to his clothes at the time, thus angering the wolves, or that they growled for some other mundane reason.

I'll be honest, I've been incredibly suprised by the prevalence on this board of people who adhere to mundane explanations for a lot of the mystical events in ASOIAF.

My view is very different. The Direwolves have knowledge of the future and have a far more mystical role than the proponents of the "they simply reflect the feelings of the warg children" theory believe.

The wolves knew Tyrion represented the Lannisters, who would be mortal enemies of the Starks. Just like when the Raven arrived at Winterfell they knew before Maester Luwin that Ned was dead.

Just like Grey Wind mistrusted the Westerlings even though Robb was in love with their daughter.

The Wolves are representatives of the Old Gods of the North, and they fill a prophetic, mystical and highly symbolic function in the Stark family.

And they are intimately connected to the battle to save the world from the Others.

So while some prefer to argue that events in ASOIAF are far more random and mundane than a fantasy setting would warrant, I am in the opposite camp, and think it is clear that the mystical aspects to the story are far more significant than some like to believe.

So why did the Direwolves growl at Tyrion - because his house would bring doom to the Starks.

[DurararaFTW]

Well I dunno about the others but we know Summer is anxious about Bran going up the tower when Bran wasn't, Summer attacked Tyrion when Bran was pretty damn okay with him after he revealed he'd make it possible for Bran to ride again, Summer trusted Sam and wanted to go down the well where Bran was uncertain about the former and feared the latter. The direwolves are their guardians and Tyrion was identified as an enemy. He knows or guesses that it was his siblings that threw Bran off the tower and Jaime is still his most beloved person in the world (at the time), so I guess that makes sense.

[Myrish swan]

I'm not going to defend Tyrion's killing of Shae, but how on earth does this demonstrate that Tyrion starts with a "worse heart"? The entire point of the poster you were replying to was that Tyrion starts out with a better heart than Tywin, but that he has the potential to become Tywin. Doesn't your example merely prove A Time for Wolves' point?

Sure, but I was just putting it out there that Tyrion may have actually started out with a worse heart than Tywin. We don't know much about what Tywin was like when young; maybe he started out with some decent impulses, like Tyrion. We simply have no way of knowing. At any rate, my true point was that Tyrion may well end up even darker than Tywin, eventually. So, yeah, A Time for Wolves makes a good point. I never meant to denigrate his point in any way.

[Baleraxar]

Some here will tell you that Tyrion had simply not washed that day, or that the scent of a passing stray dog happend to cling to his clothes at the time, thus angering the wolves, or that they growled for some other mundane reason.

I'll be honest, I've been incredibly suprised by the prevalence on this board of people who adhere to mundane explanations for a lot of the mystical events in ASOIAF.

My view is very different. The Direwolves have knowledge of the future and have a far more mystical role than the proponents of the "they simply reflect the feelings of the warg children" theory believe.

The wolves knew Tyrion represented the Lannisters, who would be mortal enemies of the Starks. Just like when the Raven arrived at Winterfell they knew before Maester Luwin that Ned was dead.

Just like Grey Wind mistrusted the Westerlings even though Robb was in love with their daughter.

The Wolves are representatives of the Old Gods of the North, and they fill a prophetic, mystical and highly symbolic function in the Stark family.

And they are intimately connected to the battle to save the world from the Others.

So while some prefer to argue that events in ASOIAF are far more random and mundane than a fantasy setting would warrant, I am in the opposite camp, and think it is clear that the mystical aspects to the story are far more significant than some like to believe.

So why did the Direwolves growl at Tyrion - because his house would bring doom to the Starks.

If that's the case, they're unbelievably terrible at their job. None of the had a problem with Roose Bolton. Or Rickard Karstark. Or the Lannisters before Bran fell. But they attack Tyrion? And Greatjon? Some divine instruments of protection.

It's one thing to say that the wolves have a feel for people that goes beyond mere recognition of body language. It's quite another to make them super-intelligent clairvoyant god-wolves. That doesn't fit the evidence. Also, it's really hokey.

[Dragonfish]

Sure, but I was just putting it out there that Tyrion may have actually started out with a worse heart than Tywin. We don't know much about what Tywin was like when young; maybe he started out with some decent impulses, like Tyrion. We simply have no way of knowing. At any rate, my true point was that Tyrion may well end up even darker than Tywin, eventually. So, yeah, A Time for Wolves makes a good point. I never meant to denigrate his point in any way.

Well, I think the point was that Tyrion starts out with a better heart than Tywin has at that point in the story, not that Tyrion has a better heart than Tywin had at the same age. In any event, I agree that Tyrion seems to be going down a very dark road. His years of resentment and bitterness really built up to a climax when he killed Shae and his father. It'll be interesting to see where his character goes from there.

[Free Northman]

If that's the case, they're unbelievably terrible at their job. None of the had a problem with Roose Bolton. Or Harrion Karstark. Or the Lannisters before Bran fell. But they attack Tyrion? And Greatjon? Some divine instruments of protection.

It's one thing to say that the wolves have a feel for people that goes beyond mere recognition of body language. It's quite another to make them super-intelligent clairvoyant god-wolves. That doesn't fit the evidence. Also, it's really hokey.

I don't know what hokey means, but in responding to your general point I believe that the gods of Westeros are certainly not omnipotent, omniscient or close to as powerful as the deities of real world religions. The common argument against the mystical or prophetic aspects of the story seems to be that if they could predict one danger, they should be able to predict ALL possible dangers. Similarly, if you wish to link ONE prophetic sign to an actual future event, then apparently you should be able to link ALL of them.

And lastly, if you do link something to a prophecy, then it needs to be almost scientifically tested to the extent that if the antler, for example is in the MOTHER direwolf, then it would ONLY be a valid prophecy if a Baratheon chopped Catelyn's head off.

To all of the above I simply say that prophecy is imperfect, it is vague and it is not based on some mathematical formula that supports its internal consistency.

Why did the wolves not growl at Bolton? Who knows. Maybe they did, but it happend offscreen. Maybe Bolton's betrayal was not as pre ordained as the Lannister/Stark conflict. Maybe the Old Gods are divided and Bolton worships a different group of them who offered him some protection. Maybe the wolves had a bad day.

The difference between mystical magic and some kind of D&D systemic, formula based magic is that mystical magic is not easily understood, it is far more subtle and it cannot be applied like some kind of science.

None of that invalidates the mystical nature of the Direwolves and their supernatural purpose in the fate of the Stark family.

[Elrick]

I don't know what hokey means, but in responding to your general point I believe that the gods of Westeros are certainly not omnipotent, omniscient or close to as powerful as the deities of real world religions. The common argument against the mystical or prophetic aspects of the story seems to be that if they could predict one danger, they should be able to predict ALL possible dangers. Similarly, if you wish to link ONE prophetic sign to an actual future event, then apparently you should be able to link ALL of them.

And lastly, if you do link something to a prophecy, then it needs to be almost scientifically tested to the extent that if the antler, for example is in the MOTHER direwolf, then it would ONLY be a valid prophecy if a Baratheon chopped Catelyn's head off.

To all of the above I simply say that prophecy is imperfect, it is vague and it is not based on some mathematical formula that supports its internal consistency.

Why did the wolves not growl at Bolton? Who knows. Maybe they did, but it happend offscreen. Maybe Bolton's betrayal was not as pre ordained as the Lannister/Stark conflict. Maybe the Old Gods are divided and Bolton worships a different group of them who offered him some protection. Maybe the wolves had a bad day.

The difference between mystical magic and some kind of D&D systemic, formula based magic is that mystical magic is not easily understood, it is far more subtle and it cannot be applied like some kind of science.

None of that invalidates the mystical nature of the Direwolves and their supernatural purpose in the fate of the Stark family.

I find that I completely and utterly agree with everything you just said. However I think their was something about Tyrion himself that the wolves didn't completely trust.

On another note their is indeed magic in this series which is something that many fans tend to ignore or say isn't there which leads me to suspect that they'll be disapointed in the incoming books.

[Errant Bard]

Similarly, if you wish to link ONE prophetic sign to an actual future event, then apparently you should be able to link ALL of them.

Yes, of course, since cherry picking the stuff you want to have specific meaning and ignoring what contradicts or doesn't fit has another appellation: making up bullshit.

[Xcorpyo001]

If that's the case, they're unbelievably terrible at their job. None of the had a problem with Roose Bolton. Or Rickard Karstark. Or the Lannisters before Bran fell. But they attack Tyrion? And Greatjon? Some divine instruments of protection.

It's one thing to say that the wolves have a feel for people that goes beyond mere recognition of body language. It's quite another to make them super-intelligent clairvoyant god-wolves. That doesn't fit the evidence. Also, it's really hokey.

Both Roose Bolton and Rickard Karstark were loyal to the Starks, at least at first.

-Roose started to want more than he could have a lot later.

-Kastark was fiercely loyal to the Starks. He lost his sons in battle and killed the Lannister only after Cat released the guy responsible for his son's death(they died protecting Robb)

-the Lannisters had no problems with the Starks before the little incident with Bran. Their mainly target was Robert.

-Greatjon was trying to hit/kill Robb at the time. Grey Wind was just protecting his master.

-Tyrion was a lann, he knew about his sister(or at least he suspected something, but was hiding it from the Starks)...again, natural reaction.

On a personal note, I do have a dog and can swear that he has some sort of radar on him. I usually walk him through the park, and he never lashed out a person, with one exception. On one day he almost broke my arm trying to chase a guy that was passing on the other direction(very strange). And I know for a fact that the guy is a class A assh...(he's beating his wife, little daughter, even his older parents).

Now, I don't know if Rex(my dog) felt that I don't like the guy, or he felt something about him, but something was wrong there.

And since my dog is not some legendary beast that was sent to me by one random deity so I can warg with him in order to save the world from destruction, it's safe to say that animals have more keen senses than us, especially supernatural animals in a fantasy novel.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

limbstan

I'm re-reading AGOT and noticed this time around that the direwolves really do not like Tyrion at all. What do you think the significance is? Even Ghost attacks him when it's obvious that he means no harm to Jon.

I'm in the camp that Tyrion is a dragon (Targ), so it may be that the cold (ice) oriented direwolves hate the dragons (fire).

There has to be something about Tyrion in particular that pisses the wolves off. What do y'all think?

I think you are reading too much into Grey Wind's reaction to Tyrion. The Warg connection is a bit of a feed back loop. GW picks up on Robb's antipathy towards Tyrion and reacts that way as a result. Further, the Direwolves appear to sense things that are dangerous. Tyrion quite clearly is dangerous. They can see him as a threat without "hating" him.