100 replies to this topic

[Ser Pistus]

Fearsome Fred, on 07 July 2011 - 06:32 AM, said:

You cannot melt gold in an iron pot placed over an ordinary cooking fire.

GRRM made a mistake.  

Would you care to show us some proof? The only semi-scientific material, the Wikipedia entry, seems to support the idea that it CAN be done.

As it was said, in the book it was probably not a small fire (as in the TV show), but instead a huge one, cooking food for thousands of dothraki.

[Faranya]

Fearsome Fred, on 07 July 2011 - 06:32 AM, said:

You cannot melt gold in an iron pot placed over an ordinary cooking fire.

I beg to disagree.

Gold melts at 1063 deg. C, and an ordinary cooking fire burns at temperatures between 1100 and 1200 deg. C, normally indicated by their orange flames.

The iron pot is more than capable of handling those temperatures, and transferring the heat to the gold.

Now, a good even melt would likely take at least a few hours, to ensure that it was all melted, but from the description in the book, this was most assuredly not the case.

The scene probably would have taken more time that it took to read, but it was not impossible.

[Which Tyler]

AquariumDrinker, on 07 July 2011 - 06:43 AM, said:

As that one guy.... A campfire for a few people, I would imagine the cooking setup for thousands of people would be closer to a bonfire. No problems for me with the melting of gold.

Cooking for that many, I'd actually assume a charcoal fire, rather than wood fire anyway; which of course, burns much hotter (and more to the point, would heat things up quicker - given that a wood fire appears to be hot enough).
Either way, it seems plausible; though lifting it with just horsehair mittens seems the sticking point to me; but then, I'm happy enough to say that GRRM got carried away occasionally.

I can't recall from the book, but in the show, they're cooking indoors, which also makes charcoal the fuel of choice

Edited by Which Tyler, 07 July 2011 - 06:52 AM.

[Dolorous J]

1st of all:

How do you know gold melts at the same exact temperature and
fire burns at the same exact temperature in an imaginery world filled with
dragons, 7 year long seasons, blood magic, Others,  zombies ,
wargs, and 700 foot magic-infused walls ( all things different than our world ) ???


Explain that point to me and then we can debate
whether it was possible or not.  

[Ser Pistus]

Dolorous J, on 07 July 2011 - 06:57 AM, said:

1st of all:

How do you know gold melts at the same exact temperature and
fire burns at the same exact temperature in an imaginery world filled with
dragons, 7 year long seasons, blood magic, Others,  zombies ,
wargs, and 700 foot magic-infused walls ( all things different than our world ) ???


Explain that point to me and then we can debate
whether it was possible or not.  

We would all be hopelessly lost without your wisdom.

facepalm.jpg

Edited by Ser Pistus, 07 July 2011 - 07:03 AM.

[Faranya]

Dolorous J, on 07 July 2011 - 06:57 AM, said:

Explain that point to me and then we can debate
whether it was possible or not.  

If you have no interest in discussion, don't enter into one.

[The Fan]

The horsehair gloves could merely be the outside of the gloves, with leather palms or possibly even more specialized with bits to hook into the pot specifically.

So, the gloves shouldn't be a disqualifier in any way.

[Abaddon]

Somebody call Mythbusters.

[Which Tyler]

The Fan, on 07 July 2011 - 07:08 AM, said:

The horsehair gloves could merely be the outside of the gloves, with leather palms or possibly even more specialized with bits to hook into the pot specifically.

So, the gloves shouldn't be a disqualifier in any way.

I see the gloves as potentially plausible (they can obviously smelt metal, so would have the relevant kit); but not realistic (they're cooking, so would they really have that stuff to hand - mind you, if it's taking half an hour to heat the metal, they've got time to find the relevant kit I suppose).

OK, I've talked myself out of it - they're no longer a sticking point.

Possible with a wood fire; plausible with charcoal, which is also the more likely fuel to use

[Rakka]

It's the Dothraki Sea we're talking about, so probably not enough wood in several days' ride to get enough to make cook fires for the entire khalasar. So charcoal or horseshit, would be my guess. Don't know how hot dung fire burns.
Also, having done my share of cooking on open flame with fairly primitive equipment, you do want to wear gloves when handling the larger pots - just taking your hands next to the flame gets really, really uncomfortable very fast.

[Fearsome Fred]

AquariumDrinker, on 07 July 2011 - 06:43 AM, said:

As that one guy.... A campfire for a few people, I would imagine the cooking setup for thousands of people would be closer to a bonfire. No problems for me with the melting of gold.

Whereas I imagine any cooking fire will be no larger than necessary to boil the contents of the stew pot over it.  It was only returned to the same fire it was being used to cook stew in.  Is the pot itself designed to feed thousands?  I think not.  It is small enough to conveniently dump over a persons head.

[Kaitscralt]

Drogo is a red priest, the cooking pot is the Prince that was Promised.

[AquariumDrinker]

Fearsome Fred, on 07 July 2011 - 07:44 AM, said:

Whereas I imagine any cooking fire will be no larger than necessary to boil the contents of the stew pot over it.  It was only returned to the same fire it was being used to cook stew in.  Is the pot itself designed to feed thousands?  I think not.  It is small enough to conveniently dump over a persons head.

based on the fact that the gold melted, the fire was hot enough. Several scenerios have been show that the possibility of a fire being hot enough to melt gold. You are stuck on the fire being too small... but if the gold melted, it wasnt to small. It seems simple to me, you just dont want it to be possible.

[Which Tyler]

Rakka, on 07 July 2011 - 07:36 AM, said:

It's the Dothraki Sea we're talking about, so probably not enough wood in several days' ride to get enough to make cook fires for the entire khalasar. So charcoal or horseshit, would be my guess. Don't know how hot dung fire burns.
Also, having done my share of cooking on open flame with fairly primitive equipment, you do want to wear gloves when handling the larger pots - just taking your hands next to the flame gets really, really uncomfortable very fast.

It's a good point, and I suspect that Vaes Dothrak would be well stocked for charcoal at least.
As for dung - that's actually very likely; best research I can find (google + 2-3 minutes) doesn't give me a burning temperature; but joules per gram is slightly less than wood (17k as opposed to 20k); which just means you need more of it, doesn't really tell us how hot it burns

[Yarl Snow]

I thought this information would be conclusive to most people, but it seems not.

So lets toss three more arguments into it:

1. The melting point is for pure gold. Many and more "gold" found in the world is not pure, and has a lower melting point.
2. A bed of coals is hotter than a candle flame. A candle flame melts pure gold.
3. GRRM wrote it this way. We do not need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it can happen, we only need it to be somewhat reasonable. Which it is, if you consider the facts from Wikipedia below.

Yarl Snow, on 15 May 2011 - 05:45 PM, said:

The melting point of gold
1337.33 K, 1064.18 °C, 1947.52 °F.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold

Typical temperatures of fires and flames

• Oxyhydrogen flame: 2000 °C or above (3600 °F)^[7]
• Bunsen burner flame: 1,300 to 1,600 °C (2,400 to 2,900 °F)^[8]
• Blowtorch flame: 1,300 °C (2,400 °F)^[9]
• Candle flame: 1,000 °C (1,800 °F)

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire

I'd say if a candle can almost melt gold, then a pot placed on a campfire could easily melt it.

[The Fan]

Are we debating if it is possible, or is it easy, I think the defense has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is possible, even if it isn't easy...

Edited by The Fan, 07 July 2011 - 08:29 AM.

[denstorebog]

Quote

How do you know gold melts at the same exact temperature and
fire burns at the same exact temperature in an imaginery world filled with
dragons, 7 year long seasons, blood magic, Others, zombies ,
wargs, and 700 foot magic-infused walls ( all things different than our world ) ???

Welcome to the fantasy genre. Some quick tips:

That the genre is fantasy does not mean that anything can happen, it means that the world differs from ours in a limited number of specific ways that are carefully introduced and laid out by the author. Such as "the seasons are longer" and "there are supernatural creatures living in the cold north of the Wall".

Tell me, with an approach like yours, does that mean you expect Westerosi horses to be able to talk and people to be able to fly? Would you accept it if it suddenly happened out of nowhere because "it is fantasy"? Would you argue that "well, there are dragons, so I shouldn't expect anything else"?

Edited by denstorebog, 07 July 2011 - 09:42 AM.

[Fearsome Fred]

The Fan, on 07 July 2011 - 08:27 AM, said:

Are we debating if it is possible, or is it easy, I think the defense has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is possible, even if it isn't easy...

Of course melting gold is POSSIBLE.  It just doesn't fit the circumstances described in the book.  You don't use an ordinary cooking fire to melt gold, and you don't use a bonfire or a kiln to boil stew.  If you took special measures to increase the heat of the cooking fire (none of which are mentioned in the book - he just pours out the stew, puts the pot back on the fire and waits), and you DID get the iron pot hot enough to melt the gold within it, the iron pot would be GLOWING BRIGHTLY.

Ordinarily, when you cook, the sides and handles of a pot don't get very hot.  This is because the boiling liquid within the pot is carrying away excess heat in the form of steam.  This effectively means that the sides of the pot above the water line, and the pot handle, is never going to get much hotter than 212 degrees Farenheit, which is the boiling point of water.

As many a forgetful cook has discovered, all this changes once the water boils away.  Iron is a great conductor of heat.  The entire pot gets hot real fast.  If you try to grab the handle, it will burn you.  We are not even talking yet about a glowing-hot pot.  Just an ordinary overheated pot.

If we further consider that reasonably large "campfire" is needed to produce the temperatures necessary to melt gold, we can expect that an ordinary stew pot, small enough to conveniently dump over a person's head, will heat fairly evenly if placed over such a fire.  If the bottom is glowing white-hot or at least bright-yellow hot (as it would be) then the sides and handles would also be superheated and glowing, to a perhaps lesser but still considerable degree.  You cannot just pull such an item from the fire with your horsehair mittens.  Your mittens will burst into flame on contact.

Edited by Fearsome Fred, 07 July 2011 - 10:57 AM.

[Rakli]

This is pretty pointless. I mean, it's a work of FANTASY. Besides, who wants to read something like 'And Drogo put the gold in the melting pot. Three hours later when it reached the approximate melting point..."

Just not as fun to read.

[Faranya]

Fearsome Fred, on 07 July 2011 - 10:23 AM, said:

Of course melting gold is POSSIBLE.  It just doesn't fit the circumstances described in the book.  You don't use an ordinary cooking fire to melt gold, and you don't use a bonfire or a kiln to boil stew.  If you took special measures to increase the heat of the cooking fire (none of which are mentioned in the book - he just pours out the stew, puts the pot back on the fire and waits), and you DID get the iron pot hot enough to melt the gold within it, the iron pot would be GLOWING BRIGHTLY.

Ordinarily, when you cook, the sides and handles of a pot don't get very hot.  This is because the boiling liquid within the pot is carrying away excess heat in the form of steam.  This effectively means that the sides of the pot above the water line, and the pot handle, is never going to get much hotter than 212 degrees Farenheit, which is the boiling point of water.

As many a forgetful cook has discovered, all this changes once the water boils away.  Iron is a great conductor of heat.  The entire pot gets hot real fast.  If you try to grab the handle, it will burn you.  We are not even talking yet about a glowing-hot pot.  Just an ordinary overheated pot.

If we further consider that reasonably large "campfire" is needed to produce the temperatures necessary to melt gold, we can expect that an ordinary stew pot, small enough to conveniently dump over a person's head, will heat fairly evenly if placed over such a fire.  If the bottom is glowing bright-yellow-hot (as it would be) then the sides and handles would also be superheated and glowing, to a perhaps lesser but still considerable degree.  You cannot just pull such an item from the fire with your horsehair mittens.  Your mittens will burst into flame on contact.

No, they would smolder on contact, and with prolonged contact ignite and stop being in any way insulating.