Cersei vs. Catelyn: Who is worse for their family?

[Tyler Snow]

I like some of the responses in here but I'd say that to simply excuse their actions. Asha Greyjoy is openly opposing the traditions of her people, Brienne, and Arya (though more reactionary), all are females who are more action oriented and aren't resorting to sleeping with men to get what they want. As another poster said, Cersei sleeps with men almost as her opening salvo in many of her schemes. It just seems reckless.

Robb fighting a war because his father was killed does not equal Catelyn releasing Jamie Lannister on some misplaced hope that, Jamie Lannister, would release her daughters. EXCHANGE hostages. She could've done that to get her daughters back and probably others in that exchange. Releasing him was not a great move and seemed to be done on a whim with no tactical advantage. This, mind you, is the same person who was critiquing her brother for defending fords that she felt were not strategically important.

Not going to apologize for calling Cersei what she is. I'm sorry if the terms didn't sit with you well but, guess what, she wants to get treated like a man, she complains that she should be a son, says that all the other Lannisters/Baratheons aren't man enough then she should get treated on equal terms right? I'll phrase it in softer terms if you like:

I find Cersei Lannister to be a woman of ill repute and one that would benefit from actually being treated as she demands, as a man, when she recklessly insults, violates, and threatens men to a point that, had she in fact been a man, would get more than a smack, probably the sharp edge of a sword in a duel or murdered in cold blood.

[Tyler Snow]

I don't see how you can call her inept for those last two. Both were fine ideas; it's not her fault that the conference failed in spectacular fashion or that Robb behaved like a fool.

Why didn't she offer herself as a marriage alliance? I'm not sure what the rules are/were in Westeros exactly but she was single, of high birth, young enough to still bear children AND the lead house of Lord Frey. Surely Walder would not have opposed such a match. I thought it was a little bit short sighted to just offer Robb, off the bat, to the Freys. What if Robb had become King? Would he really have been politically advanced being married to a bannerman's daughter of one of the great houses? Granted, he ended married to one anyway but I just thought it was an odd move.

[oba]

Why didn't she offer herself as a marriage alliance? I'm not sure what the rules are/were in Westeros exactly but she was single, of high birth, young enough to still bear children AND the lead house of Lord Frey. Surely Walder would not have opposed such a match. I thought it was a little bit short sighted to just offer Robb, off the bat, to the Freys.

At that point, Ned was actually still alive. So, no, Cat wasn't single.

[Tyrion Lannister]

I don't see how you can call her inept for those last two. Both were fine ideas; it's not her fault that the conference failed in spectacular fashion or that Robb behaved like a fool.

Totally agree. I think Cat makes some pretty foolish decisions along the way, but some people on here seem to blame her for things that weren't her fault. Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling certainly wasn't her fault. That, to me, might have been the biggest blunder any character has made in the series so far, and that was 100% on Robb.

[Tyler Snow]

At that point, Ned was actually still alive. So, no, Cat wasn't single.

Ha, fair enough. Read the books in a row and very quickly.

[Inglorious Pencil]

I like some of the responses in here but I'd say that to simply excuse their actions. Asha Greyjoy is openly opposing the traditions of her people, Brienne, and Arya (though more reactionary), all are females who are more action oriented and aren't resorting to sleeping with men to get what they want. As another poster said, Cersei sleeps with men almost as her opening salvo in many of her schemes. It just seems reckless.

(...)

Not going to apologize for calling Cersei what she is. I'm sorry if the terms didn't sit with you well but, guess what, she wants to get treated like a man, she complains that she should be a son, says that all the other Lannisters/Baratheons aren't man enough then she should get treated on equal terms right?

I'm sorry, it's very late in this corner of the world and I'm pretty sure I'm not at my most receptive right now - but are you implying that in order to be entitled to claim the same deal of respect as a man, a woman should literally act like a man, pick up a sword, etc.? Look, my favorite character is Brienne, so I don't really have a problem with the notion of a female warrior - but I find this assumption troubling. Cersei spells it out for Sansa quite clearly: if tears and courtesy are a lady's armor, sex is her weapon when she is operating within the limits of the gender norms of that society. We can argue that it is not her only weapon, but it's definitely part of the arsenal. Why is sex - or the promise of sex, which is essentially what a character like Margaery uses (and Cersei, too - remember she doesn't even like sex with men who aren't Jaime, so there's a lot of teasing and laying off the charm but actual intercourse is more like a chore) a more despicable weapon than violence or the threat of it? Honest question here. <_<

[Sivin]

Is that really fair? Jaime's release did start off a chain reaction that led to the Karstarks' desertion, but when Robb lost the Freys, he already had lost the war essentially, as much as he had lost it when Stannis lost on the Blackwater.

Cat doesn't let Tyrion go, he doesn't defend KL. Stannis manages to take it before Tywin gets there, and now he's sitting outside the city with no way to cross the river (which is held by Stannis) and his army is incredibly vulnerable after; completing a forced march, outrunning their supply-lines, and putting themselves in an untenable position by being forced to attack the city because they don't have the supplies to siege it.

Stannis will take heavy losses while taking and then holding the city, but he will survive and, because he's an idiot, will march on Rob with his weakened army. Freys or no Freys, Rob still has the Karstarks (if Cat doesn't release Jaime) and outnumbers the weakened Stannis host. He then goes on to defeat them with the help of Roose Bolton (who can no longer betray him in favor of Tywin), and is now in position to siege the Frey's into submission before turning to take back the North.

And in this scenario, even if Tywin wins the battle for KL, Stannis didn't take the huge losses of ships and men, and the wildlings didn't kill his scouts (so he see's Tywin coming). This results in Tywin taking far more losses, and Rob can still afford to march against him without the Frey's support. Bolton no longer feels secure in betraying Rob (he doesn't even have a good chance now), and it all happens the same as I pointed out earlier.

IMO

[tarantella]

I don't see how you can call her inept for those last two. Both were fine ideas; it's not her fault that the conference failed in spectacular fashion or that Robb behaved like a fool.

This, neither of the big two matriarchs had much help from their eldest sons. Catelyn's promise to wed Robb to a Frey maybe wasn't the best long-term move, putting themselves right in the Freys' pockets, but it served their interests in the short term while they were under pressure. And Robb was the one who spectacularly screwed that whole deal up in the end.

And Cersei would have done a lot better in King's Landing if Joffrey weren't king. I'm not sure how much you can blame her for how Joffrey turned out; the kid just has a rotten personality, and Myrcella and Tommen seem pretty normal by comparison.

[FacelessGirl]

Both women were infuriating to read about at times, but I truly believe Cersei is poison. At least Catelyn accepts her birth and position as a WOMAN. For crying out loud...

[Tyler Snow]

I'm sorry, it's very late in this corner of the world and I'm pretty sure I'm not at my most receptive right now - but are you implying that in order to be entitled to claim the same deal of respect as a man, a woman should literally act like a man, pick up a sword, etc.? Look, my favorite character is Brienne, so I don't really have a problem with the notion of a female warrior - but I find this assumption troubling. Cersei spells it out for Sansa quite clearly: if tears and courtesy are a lady's armor, sex is her weapon when she is operating within the limits of the gender norms of that society. We can argue that it is not her only weapon, but it's definitely part of the arsenal. Why is sex - or the promise of sex, which is essentially what a character like Margaery uses (and Cersei, too - remember she doesn't even like sex with men who aren't Jaime, so there's a lot of teasing and laying off the charm but actual intercourse is more like a chore) a more despicable weapon than violence or the threat of it? Honest question here. <_<

No, no, I wasn't saying it was more despicable or anything like that, just that Cersei is kind of a one trick pony in that regard. Of course they can use their feminine appeal to their advantage. What I was saying is that Cersei seems to be of the opinion that she could just pick up a sword and be as good as Jamie had society not placed the restrictions it did on females in Westeros. It's a sentiment that, I think, is born for complete and total arrogance and ignorance and that if she had actually attempted to do any of the things that she despises/begrudges Jaime, Robert, Tywin etc for not doing that she wouldn't make some of the same mistakes politically that she has made. That's all. No one is going to deny that the women of Westeros should use their appeal to get what they want, but, I mean, change it up a little bit. You are the Queen, you are already sleeping with your TWIN BROTHER! Why would run around and offer yourself to basically everyone that you want to be in cohoots with?

I understand the desire for sex too (I'm think more Lancel and the Myrish woman who's name escapes me at the moment), no one will fault her for that too. She has needs, just like everyone else, but it just seems she was doling out loving at a rather high rate and it was a card she played far too often.

[Lady Blackfish]

Both women were infuriating to read about at times, but I truly believe Cersei is poison. At least Catelyn accepts her birth and position as a WOMAN. For crying out loud...

Cersei wanting to be more than what her birth and position as a woman allows her to be is a sympathetic aspect of her character for me. Catelyn accepting her birth and position is tragic, more so because of how often it's necessary to prevent greater harms.

[lifefullofwords]

No, no, I wasn't saying it was more despicable or anything like that, just that Cersei is kind of a one trick pony in that regard. Of course they can use their feminine appeal to their advantage. What I was saying is that Cersei seems to be of the opinion that she could just pick up a sword and be as good as Jamie had society not placed the restrictions it did on females in Westeros. It's a sentiment that, I think, is born for complete and total arrogance and ignorance and that if she had actually attempted to do any of the things that she despises/begrudges Jaime, Robert, Tywin etc for not doing that she wouldn't make some of the same mistakes politically that she has made. That's all. No one is going to deny that the women of Westeros should use their appeal to get what they want, but, I mean, change it up a little bit. You are the Queen, you are already sleeping with your TWIN BROTHER! Why would run around and offer yourself to basically everyone that you want to be in cohoots with?

I understand the desire for sex too (I'm think more Lancel and the Myrish woman who's name escapes me at the moment), no one will fault her for that too. She has needs, just like everyone else, but it just seems she was doling out loving at a rather high rate and it was a card she played far too often.

I agree that Cersei slept with Lancel and Taena because she wanted too and I'm glad you can distinguish between the times when she uses sex and the times when she actually wants to have sex. But you mentioned before that you read the books very quickly and perhaps you should reread them because Cersei generally relies on her charm, good looks, and the PROMISE of sex. She seems to avoid having sex with the men she is manipulating if at all possible. Obviously sometimes you actually have to deliver on promises. And one of the ones she sleeps with actually acquaintance rapes her (not sure if I should call it that, but she's teasing him and he forces himself on her). Anyway, I actually think Cersei is not very sexual at all given her flirtatious attitude. She's not a whore - in anything, she's a tease.

Both women were infuriating to read about at times, but I truly believe Cersei is poison. At least Catelyn accepts her birth and position as a WOMAN. For crying out loud...

And why should Cersei have to "accept her birth and position as a WOMAN"? If anything Catelyn's acceptance of her "position" means that most of the political power she possesses lies in her ability to convince men to listen to her. Frequently they don't and sometimes things would have gone much better if they had (failed Renly/Stannis summit, Robb marrying Jeyne instead of a Frey). I'd argue Catelyn gets repeatedly screwed over by her position in society - the one she arrived in by accepting the limitations placed on her as a woman. Not that I blame her for the way she deals with being a woman - I actually find that aspect of Catelyn's character to be very sympathetic.

BTW, besides Catelyn Sansa is the only female POV character who faces the same set of limitations and accepts them and that leads to a lot of problems for her just like it does for Catelyn. Again, not her fault, but it's hard to argue that things work out better for women if they just accept their position in society.

I think it's pretty clear that Cersei is completely twisted inside as a result of her resentment of the limitations placed on her as a woman. She could have been more willing to accept those limits but can you really blame her for not wanting to be powerless? Incidentally, I think a lot of Cersei's problems (but certainly not all of them) stem from the fact that she has no way to exert power except via scheming and manipulating men. The sad thing about Cersei (to me, at least) is that she wanted to escape the confines placed on her because of her sex but she didn't know how to. Female POV characters who refuse to accept the role allotted to them and successfully find an outlet for their abilities seem to have the fewest gender issues.

[FacelessGirl]

I agree that Cersei slept with Lancel and Taena because she wanted too and I'm glad you can distinguish between the times when she uses sex and the times when she actually wants to have sex. But you mentioned before that you read the books very quickly and perhaps you should reread them because Cersei generally relies on her charm, good looks, and the PROMISE of sex. She seems to avoid having sex with the men she is manipulating if at all possible. Obviously sometimes you actually have to deliver on promises. And one of the ones she sleeps with actually acquaintance rapes her (not sure if I should call it that, but she's teasing him and he forces himself on her). Anyway, I actually think Cersei is not very sexual at all given her flirtatious attitude. She's not a whore - in anything, she's a tease.

And why should Cersei have to "accept her birth and position as a WOMAN"? If anything Catelyn's acceptance of her "position" means that most of the political power she possesses lies in her ability to convince men to listen to her. Frequently they don't and sometimes things would have gone much better if they had (failed Renly/Stannis summit, Robb marrying Jeyne instead of a Frey). I'd argue Catelyn gets repeatedly screwed over by her position in society - the one she arrived in by accepting the limitations placed on her as a woman. Not that I blame her for the way she deals with being a woman - I actually find that aspect of Catelyn's character to be very sympathetic.

BTW, besides Catelyn Sansa is the only female POV character who faces the same set of limitations and accepts them and that leads to a lot of problems for her just like it does for Catelyn. Again, not her fault, but it's hard to argue that things work out better for women if they just accept their position in society.

I think it's pretty clear that Cersei is completely twisted inside as a result of her resentment of the limitations placed on her as a woman. She could have been more willing to accept those limits but can you really blame her for not wanting to be powerless? Incidentally, I think a lot of Cersei's problems (but certainly not all of them) stem from the fact that she has no way to exert power except via scheming and manipulating men. The sad thing about Cersei (to me, at least) is that she wanted to escape the confines placed on her because of her sex but she didn't know how to. Female POV characters who refuse to accept the role allotted to them and successfully find an outlet for their abilities seem to have the fewest gender issues.

Cersei blames everything that goes wrong in her schemes and even her life on being born a woman. She tries to think and act like a man, but if you're not one what's the point? We clearly see what its done for her, and that's her downfall. She does have the capacity, she just doesn't know how to apply it, or use the abilities granted by her gender. And whoring herself out doesn't really count.

[lifefullofwords]

Cersei blames everything that goes wrong in her schemes and even her life on being born a woman. She tries to think and act like a man, but if you're not one what's the point? We clearly see what its done for her, and that's her downfall. She does have the capacity, she just doesn't know how to apply it, or use the abilities granted by her gender. And whoring herself out doesn't really count.

Obviously Cersei is deeply resentful of the limitations placed on her because of her gender and eventually that is part of what makes her a horrible person. I thought I made that clear in my previous post. My point was that the other option that you presented (accepting it) does not seem to work out any better for the female POV characters who do go that route. I therefore do not see why things would necessarily turned out so much better for Cersei either had she taken the approach you suggest.

[FacelessGirl]

Obviously Cersei is deeply resentful of the limitations placed on her because of her gender and eventually that is part of what makes her a horrible person. I thought I made that clear in my previous post. My point was that the other option that you presented (accepting it) does not seem to work out any better for the female POV characters who do go that route. I therefore do not see why things would necessarily turned out so much better for Cersei either had she taken the approach you suggest.

Men have it just as hard as females in this world, and most of them have learned to accept that's its not necessarily your gender that makes this world crappy, that's just how it is. I just can't feel sorry for Cersei. If she were born a peasant she'd be dead by now. Her being of high birth allows for her shenanigans and overall evilness. Instead of lamenting on what reproductive organ she was born with be glad you were born the daughter of a lord. I doubt she could even do that, though...

[melicorn]

Do you guys think Catelyn was kept around so that she might have the opportunity to learn from her mistakes/correct her misperceptions of some characters? I'd like to think so, especially given her new role of judge, but it seems learning is probably not one of the things she is really capable of anymore, and she seems to have grown even more stubborn.

[lifefullofwords]

Men have it just as hard as females in this world.

Are we reading the same books? Women definitely face all kinds of challenges and get all kinds of shit in ways men do not in Westeros. They are second-class citizens and are completely subjugated to their husbands. An upper-class woman is supposed to do two things with her life: get married and have lots of babies. God forbid you have a shitty husband or want anything more because life will not be easy for you. Meanwhile men have much more freedom... just think about the conversation between Ned and Arya have in AGoT. He is telling her about all of the things Bran can do with his life even though he's crippled and Arya asks whether she can do any of those things. Ned tells her no, she will marry a great lord and her sons will do those things. I think it's pretty clear that GRRM is indicating in that passage (and many, many others) that an upper-class woman's life is far more proscribed than an upper-class man's life. In conclusion, women DO have it harder than men in Westeros.

[FacelessGirl]

Are we reading the same books? Women definitely face all kinds of challenges and get all kinds of shit in ways men do not in Westeros. They are second-class citizens and are completely subjugated to their husbands. An upper-class woman is supposed to do two things with her life: get married and have lots of babies. God forbid you have a shitty husband or want anything more because life will not be easy for you. Meanwhile men have much more freedom... just think about the conversation between Ned and Arya have in AGoT. He is telling her about all of the things Bran can do with his life even though he's crippled and Arya asks whether she can do any of those things. Ned tells her no, she will marry a great lord and her sons will do those things. I think it's pretty clear that GRRM is indicating in that passage (and many, many others) that an upper-class woman's life is far more proscribed than an upper-class man's life. In conclusion, women DO have it harder than men in Westeros.

I am not trying to be argumentative with you, but it appears you are towards me. I never said women don't have it hard in Westoros, of course they do. That's what makes the series so realistic, women were treated horribly in the Middle Ages. Highborn or smallfolk women had it hard. In Cersei's case, I felt sorry for her, but reading through three books, and nearly done with the fourth and seeing her grow more and more diabolical and cruel, I have lost most of my sympathy for her. Never mind Ned's conversation with Arya, a child, not a grown woman. The question was who do you feel is worse, Cersei or Catelyn. In MY conclusion: Cersei.

[Spring Bass]

Aaaaannnnd there goes the thread.

As for the OT, I think that Cersei is in an entirely different league in terms of being worse for her family, and she's much more responsible for the problems she causes (she and her cohort basically raise them, since Robert was an indifferent father at best towards his three children). Joffrey was a psychopath, but Cersei brought out his worst tendencies, and was the one feeding all that "A King must be strong - nobody tells him what to do!" stuff.

Catelyn, on the other hand, brings up her children very well. She advises Robb very well at every turn, and sits on his councils (in fact, many of Robb's greatest blunders come from when he ignores Catelyn's advice). The worst you can say about Catelyn is that she makes some decisions that snow-ball into disasters for her family, but the same can be said for Cersei.

[lifefullofwords]

I am not trying to be argumentative with you, but it appears you are towards me. I never said women don't have it hard in Westoros, of course they do. That's what makes the series so realistic, women were treated horribly in the Middle Ages. Highborn or smallfolk women had it hard. In Cersei's case, I felt sorry for her, but reading through three books, and nearly done with the fourth and seeing her grow more and more diabolical and cruel, I have lost most of my sympathy for her. Never mind Ned's conversation with Arya, a child, not a grown woman. The question was who do you feel is worse, Cersei or Catelyn. In MY conclusion: Cersei.

I'm sorry if I came off as aggressive, I thought we were just debating how GRRM depicts gender roles. We are here to discuss the books after all but I can see that I came on a little strong. What I was trying to do was build a case against this particular line in your post: "men have it just as hard as females in this world". In my opinion that is clearly not the case and it seems that you agree. So perhaps there's been a misunderstanding?