172 replies to this topic

[apt54]

With Tyrell army marching on King's Landing how long will it take for the likes of Pycelle and Swift to change sides?
Jaime and Daven do not have a strong enough army to threaten Tyrells. Lannister forces have been heavily damages by the North, while Highgraden armies remain relatively intact. The only known casualties they have sustained were 1000 man in the siege of Dragonstone. Pretty small damage, compared to the Lannisters.
Kevan will not be able to become a regent for a simple reason: Entire KL abhores Lannister by now. Incestous whores, usurpers, murderers, pompous imbeciles, tormentors of "sweet" Margarey - this is the Lannister image in King's Landing. Should the people decide they want no more of Lannisters, who might take advantage of situation? Faith Militant is there to "protect" the pious smallfolk. Kevan might just as well become Cersei's neighbour.
Situation is following: Pycelle and Swift are sandwitched between Faith and Highgarden, Jaime and Daven will have to lead their army in the forced march if they want to reach capital before Mace, and this will tire their (undoubtably outnumbered) troops.

[iamthedave]

On Robert: He himself felt embarrassed and ashamed at himself for hitting her. It's one of the signs of how low he's sunk, and it's as much a reflection on him as it is on Cersei for baiting him into it.

I don't judge him as harshly as I would most men in that situation, because Cersei eggs him on and on and on. As Robert says himself, he doesn't know how to deal with a problem he can't hit. And Cersei is most certainly one of those (or at least, a problem you shouldn't hit - literally or figuratively).

[jlk7e]

This seems like a very negative read on the situation.  Why do you think Mace Tyrell is going to King's Landing to make war on the Lannisters?  He's going there to make war on the Faith, if anything. Margaery and Cersei are both imprisoned by the High Septon, and there's not been an open break between the Lannisters and the Tyrells.  If Kevan does take up the regency, I don't see any reason why he wouldn't be able to come to an arrangement with the Tyrells.  It would probably be an arrangement that leaves the Tyrells with a lot more power than they had under Cersei or Tywin, but there's no good reason why Mace Tyrell would want to fight an actual civil war with Kevan Lannister.

[Frog One]

Its Cersei, she might be as emotional and impulsive as Cat which is very bad for a Queen regeant,  but she is much more capable and smarter than Catelyn.

[apt54]

actually, Mace has all the reasons in the world:
Cersei's and Pycelle's part in Margarey's imprisonment does not need much explaining, right? Kettlebeck's testimony is a serious blow to Cersei. Another element is Loras's predicament. Sure, it was boy's own doing, but boiling oil is still boiling oil, and the siege was done in Tommen's name. CUrrently the situation, as percieved by Mace, is that Lannisters, after securing their failing position with Highgarden's help, now simply do not want to share the booty. Besides, Mace might very well act simply based on his own ambitions. I do not state that the war will happen with 100% certainty, but Lannisters are done as a dominating political player either way. In case of war they are royally screwed, in case of peaceful outcome Queen Regent will lose her head, this outcome is granted... I wonder though if they allow women to take the black haha:D. Anyway, with Highgarden forces stationed in KL, Kevan simply will not be able to exert major influence on the dealings of the small council.

Edited by apt54, 27 May 2011 - 03:09 PM.

[Myrish swan]

apt54, on 27 May 2011 - 01:03 PM, said:

Which happened, ultimately, why? Because crazy bitch had the imp imprisoned and framed for something he had not done.

Not true. "Crazy bitch" had nothing to do with the framing of Tyrion for murder. That was 100 percent LF and Olenna Tyrell. On that one issue, Cersei is blameless.

Also, the books make it pretty clear that Cersei really and truly does believe Tyrion murdered her son, his own nephew. And she has good reason for believing this-- LF does a pretty good frame up job. And if you mean that Cersei "framed" Tyrion by bribing Shae to testify, and offering too sleep with the Viper in exchange for a guilty verdict on his part, that's not fair. There was already plenty of evidence that Tyrion was guilty at that point; and pretty much everybody (Tywin, Kevan, the vast majority of kings landing) believed he had done it.) Cersei was merely taking some unnecessary steps to make 150 percent sure that Tyrion would be found guilty.

Oh, and p.s.-- I'd say Tywin was just asa guilty of the condemnation and prosecution of Tyrion as Cersei was.

apt54, on 27 May 2011 - 01:03 PM, said:

Tell me, would Tywin have died if Cersei had not had Tyrion thrown into jail?

Umm...hell yes, he would have. Tyrion was a ticking time bomb. As soon  as he learned about Tysha, he would have went after Tywin. And he would have found out about Tysha eventually, I guarentee it. In fact, there's every indication that new and improved Jaime would have told him the truth about Tysha at this point. If he had not been locked up, it simply would have been easier for him to get to Tywin. Cersei had nothing to do with any of that.

apt54, on 27 May 2011 - 01:03 PM, said:

Cersei is an idiot. period.

Fair enough. But she's an idiot who is clearly less responsible for the destruction of house Lanister than her two considerably more intelligent brothers.

Sure, Cersei's being in power was a debacle. But one must really look back to how and why she got power in the first place. The person responsible for that is clearly Tyrion. If it weren't for the imp's need to satisfy his personal grudges, then Tywin would be ruling the seven kingdoms in an era of peace and prosperity, and Cersei the idiot would be safely back at Casterly Rock.

[Myrish swan]

iamthedave, on 27 May 2011 - 02:42 PM, said:

On Robert: He himself felt embarrassed and ashamed at himself for hitting her. It's one of the signs of how low he's sunk, and it's as much a reflection on him as it is on Cersei for baiting him into it.

I don't judge him as harshly as I would most men in that situation, because Cersei eggs him on and on and on. As Robert says himself, he doesn't know how to deal with a problem he can't hit. And Cersei is most certainly one of those (or at least, a problem you shouldn't hit - literally or figuratively).

Yes, I always thought Robert admitting the wrongness of the action was a sign of some remaining decency on his part. However, his objections to Ned, “Do you see what she does to me, Ned?” Was unfair. Cersei was being immature and belittling in this scene, but she never made Robert do anything. Furthermore, Cersei’s attitude of coldness, condescension, and scorn in this scene is matched by Robert’s own. If you read the whole scene, Cersei’s (admittedly offensive) comments do not come out of nowhere; Robert has been saying things like, “shut up, woman!” and “roaring” threats and insults at her the whole time. The scene is not one of Cersei verbally berating Robert out of nowhere, but of two people childishly snapping at and insulting one another.

Edited by Myrish swan, 28 May 2011 - 11:55 PM.

[Luin]

Not to mention the fact that Cersei was actually right about what she said in that scene. Tyrion was being put through a show trial, tortured, and starved in order to frame him for  one crime LF+Lysa did and one crime Joffrey did with the sole evidence being a single word by LF the brothel owner.

Had it been anybody besides Ned Stark Robert wouldn't have needed Cersei to urge him to do the right thing (which of course he didn't, Tyrion has to outsmart Lysa and Cat and be lucky that his "scum" would defeat a knight to live). This Westeros/Medieval setting is not about a diving king chosen by God and removed from an Abbey without a family to lead. This is a story about power, if a king has decided family isn't worth protecting he has also decided people unrelated to him who can't call themselves friend let alone brother in-law aren't worth protecting anymore either. Robert was unwilling to do what it would take to get Tyrion free, he really had no business being king during that scene.

I also love how to people defending Robert when he hit Cersei Cersei is evil for expecting a king to live up to bare minimum of social legal and morale arrangements when she tries to get Tyrion saved but when it comes to Tyrion vs Cersei of course Tyrion is a saint and it is a sin to be against him. Sorry but out of all sections of the book and paragraphs showing how Robert is a bad king I would put that at exactly #1. Robert even makes Ned Hand of the King again when Cersei is escorted back to her room bruised. If you don't want to think about how that makes him a horrible husband don't, think about how sending a message nobody is under my protection and nobody could expect justice from me makes him a bad king.

Also why is it noble and valliant of him to insult Cersei but when Cersei bites back it suddenly turns into a hittable offense?

Edited by Luin, 29 May 2011 - 09:50 AM.

[Nukelavee]

Swan, you have some weird ways of trying to justify Cersie's behaviours, or allow her to avoid responsibility for the results.

Of course Tywin died because he said whore, but, would Tyrion have pulled the trigger if he hadn't been sentanced to death unjustly?  

Would the hatred between Joff and Tyrion have existed had Cersie not spent Tyrion's entire lifespan hating him for being born, and being a dwarf?  Would Joff have been so free with his hatred and insults had his mother not spent years filling his ear with poison?

Had she not been filled with such an unreasoning hatred of him, do you think, possibly, she might have considered that Tyrion's sense of family (and obvious affection for her other children) and duty would preclude killing Joff?  (not to mention, doing it in so easily traceable manner?).

And blaming her reign's disasters on Tyrion? wow.

[Maia]

Luin, on 29 May 2011 - 09:47 AM, said:

the sole evidence being a single word by LF the brothel owner.

Well, Varys backed him up too, didn't he? Testimony of 2 members of the small council is nothing to sneeze at.

[CatelynFan]

Quote

Of course Tywin died because he said whore, but, would Tyrion have pulled the trigger if he hadn't been sentanced to death unjustly?

Yes.  A thousand times yes.  Remember: the main reason Tyrion killed Tywin was because he'd learned that both Jaime and Tywin had lied about Tysha.  If Tyrion had found this out earlier, I'm positive he would have tried to take his revenge earlier.  Although it's possible he wouldn't have succeeded if he hadn't been able to reach Tywin's bedroom from the dungeons.

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Would the hatred between Joff and Tyrion have existed had Cersie not spent Tyrion's entire lifespan hating him for being born, and being a dwarf? Would Joff have been so free with his hatred and insults had his mother not spent years filling his ear with poison?

No...and yes.  I agree that much of Joffrey's hatred of Tyrion came from Cersei, but what about Tommen and Myrcella?  They don't hate Tyrion, and I'm guessing Cersei didn't disguise her hatred of him in front of them either.  I think part of Joffrey's venom towards Tyrion comes from Cersei and part of it comes from his being thoroughly evil.

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Had she not been filled with such an unreasoning hatred of him, do you think, possibly, she might have considered that Tyrion's sense of family (and obvious affection for her other children) and duty would preclude killing Joff? (not to mention, doing it in so easily traceable manner?).

Yes.  I can't believe I'm bringing up the Maggy the Frog prophecy in my argument, as I think it's the stupidest, lamest plot point in the series.  But considering that the valonquar is prophesied to destroy Cersei and she thinks it's Tyrion, there's no reason why she SHOULDN'T suspect Tyrion of killing Joff.  Besides, remember when Tyrion threatened to torture and rape Tommen if Alayaya were tortured and raped?  Cersei has no reason to think that Tyrion's affection for her other children is more than superficial.  I'm not saying she's right or reasonable; I'm saying that judging by what we know of her character, it's understandable that she would blame Tyrion.

Quote

And blaming her reign's disasters on Tyrion? wow.

From what I've read, Myrish Swan wasn't blaming Cersei's reign's disasters on Tyrion.  She was just making a point that if Tyrion had not murdered Tywin, Tywin would have continued to rule, thereby avoiding the disasters Cersei brought to the realm.  Also, she was arguing that despite Cersei's incompetence, she is not completely responsible for the decline of the Lannisters.  Tywin, Jaime, and Tyrion also contributed to it; their blunders just weren't as obvious as Cersei's.

[Nukelavee]

Well, I don't blame the full extent of the Lannister situation on Cersei.

Yeah, don't bring up the prophecy, it doesn't help, lol.  Seriously, "A vile frogwitch claimed an evil twisted monkeydemon thing would ruin my life!  That proves the Imp did it!"  isn't exactly something that make the case more believable.  It's like Cat blaming Tyrion for Bran, of all the possible suspects, with actual motives that could be seen to be tied to the "game", they both pick the dwarf.

Btw, I really don't think Tyrion would have killed his father under other circumstances.  Ruined him, pissed in his soup (figuratively, mind you) whatever have you, but killing him?  I doubt it, I think Tywin died because Tyrion was wound up like a banjo string at that moment (and likely when he started up the ladder, too).

[The Undead Martyr]

Tyrion was basically insane after Jaime told him about Tysha.  He's suffered slights, threats and insults for nearly all of his life, he's blamed for sins he hasn't committed and unrewarded for his sacrifices.  His father and sister both want to kill him and/or banish him (Tywin didn't care how Tyrion was disinherited so long as he was out of the picture) and he is condemned by family, friends, and just about everyone else for killing Joffrey at the royal wedding feast- kinslaying and arguably guest right betrayal as well- despite literally risking his skin to save KL from Stannis.  When he goes up to Tywin's room, he finds Shae (his "lover") in Tywin's bed, and Tywin talks down to an armed Tyrion even as he's taking a shit.

He lost it.  Anyone less than a Buddha/Jesus figure would have at that point.

[Myrish swan]

Nukelavee, on 29 May 2011 - 01:03 PM, said:

Swan, you have some weird ways of trying to justify Cersie's behaviours, or allow her to avoid responsibility for the results.

Not really. I was merely saying that she seems less responsible for the downfall of her family then Tyrion, Jaime, and Tywin himself. Though Cersei may be a far worse person than Tyrion, the fact is that she would have never been in a leadership position if Tyrion didn't kill Tywin, out of pure vengeance.

Nukelavee, on 29 May 2011 - 01:03 PM, said:

And blaming her reign's disasters on Tyrion? wow.

I was not blaming Cersei's mistakes or atrocities on Tyrion. However, many people have been arguing that Cersei is responsible (or will be) for the downfall of her house because of the incompetence, cruelty, and stupidity she used while ruling. Looking at the big picture, I can’t help but point out that Cersei would never have been ruler to begin with if Tyrion had not killed his father. If Tywin Lanister were kept alive, the realm would be entering an era of peace and prosperity, and the Lanisters would still be going strong.  

Nukelavee, on 29 May 2011 - 01:03 PM, said:

Swan, you have some weird ways of trying to justify Cersie's behaviors, or allow her to avoid responsibility for the results.

Of course Tywin died because he said whore, but, would Tyrion have pulled the trigger if he hadn't been sentenced to death unjustly?  

Um, yes, he would have. Honestly, though its fine that you don't like Cersei and feel I'm letting her off the hook too easily, the facts themselves do not support what you are saying. The reason for Tywin's death was primarily the Tysha incident. Since this has happened, Tyrion (arguably justifiably) has been a ticking time bomb. And for once, despite her many horrible deeds, Cersei is not to blame. She had no involvement in, or knowledge of, the Tysha affair whatsoever. None.

As for "would Tyrion have pulled the trigger had he not been sentenced to death unjustly," hell yes, he would have. Tyrion killed his father out of revenge for lying to him that his wife was a prostitute, and then proceeding to arrange a gang rape for Tyrion to watch and participate in. When Tyrion found out that his wife was "innocent" (a.k.a. not a whore) he is filled with fury, enough to kill the man responsible for it, Tywin.

From the moment Tyrion found out about Tysha, Tywin was a dead man. (Tywin certainly did not help things by taunting/ insulting his son, crossbow in hand.)  The reason why Tywin was murdered was wholly because of the Tysha incident.

Nukelavee, on 29 May 2011 - 01:03 PM, said:

Would the hatred between Joff and Tyrion have existed had Cersie not spent Tyrion's entire lifespan hating him for being born, and being a dwarf?  Would Joff have been so free with his hatred and insults had his mother not spent years filling his ear with poison?

Um, probably, since Tyrion hurt Joffrey's pride, and, as a narcissist, Joff couldn't stand that. And no, Cersei "filling Joff's ear with poison” may well have had nothing to do with Joff's hatred of Tyrion. We don't even know if Cersei ever said anything negative about Tyrion to Joff.

However, regardless of whether Cersei whispered "poison" into Joff's ear about Tyrion every day and was directly responsible for her sons hatred of his uncle, it would not make Cersei any more responsible for Tyrion being accused of, and found guilty for murder. Which itself would have nothing much to do with Tyrion's choice to kill his father. Honestly, you are employing two arguments that make next to no sense here-- you are saying that, since she made her son hate Tyrion, Cersei is responsible for Tyrion being accused of murder, which in turn makes her responsible for Tyrion's choice to kill his father. Not only are these things tenuously connected, I'd say that Cersei is not responsible for Tyrion's getting accused for murder. Tyrion was not accused of, and tried for the murder of his nephew because Joff hated him. He was accused because Onlena Tyrell poisoned Joff and took pains to frame him. (Littlefinger helped with this as well.)

Are you saying that you blame Cersei for believing that Tyrion killed her son, and accusing him of doing so? First, Cersei accused Tyrion on some evidence. This cannot be blamed on Cersei, but, as I mentioned before, on the frame up job done by Olenna and LF. There was ample evidence to convict Tyrion in the trial. Plus, it was not Cersei who convinced everyone of significance that Tyrion was guilty. Olenna and LF did such an effective frame up job that Tyrion did indeed look very guilty. Again, nearly everyone believed so-- Kevan, and Tywin Lanister himself, it is worth noting.

Also, you seem to hold Cersei responsible for having Tyrion tried and condemned for murder. Honestly, she did not have this much power. Tyrion was tried and condemned by everyone because, again, there was ample evidence to convict him that Cersei had nothing to do with. She tried to interfere with the trial, but in the end she did not really have much power.

Tywin is far more responsible for Tyrion being "locked up" and condemned to death, as you put it. And honestly, Cersei truly believed that Tyrion was guilty of killing her son. Which makes Cersei's desire for Tyrion to be killed justifiable. I'm not saying that Cersei is not a horrible person, I'm just saying that in this one instance, her actions could be justified by the fact that she honestly thought that Tyrion had killed Joff, and had some reason to think so.  

Finally, Tyrion being convicted of murder really had nothing to do with why he murdered his father. He murdered his father because of the Tysha incident, something that Cersei, once again, had noting to do with.

Nukelavee, on 29 May 2011 - 01:03 PM, said:

Had she not been filled with such an unreasoning hatred of him, do you think, possibly, she might have considered that Tyrion's sense of family (and obvious affection for her other children) and duty would preclude killing Joff?  (not to mention, doing it in so easily traceable manner?).

Well, Kevan, Tywin, and almost everybody else did assume that Tyrion was guilty of the murder. Also, Tywin was filled with the same "unreasoning hatred of Tyrion." And again, Cersei did not have enough power to convict Tyrioin of murder. You blame Cersei’s irrational hatred of Tyrion for the fact that he was convicted of murdering Joff, and indicate that Cersei’s belief that Tyrion was guilty is somehow indicative of her evil, irrational nature. However, its worth noting that nearly everyone believed Tyrion to be guilty. Nearly everyone. The only person in the entire city who cared enough about Tyrion to listen to his side of the story and believe him was Jaime. Honestly, Cersei's "unreasoning hatred of Tyrion" hardly makes her a nice person, but I still don't see how it makes her responsible (either directly or indirectly) for the murder of Tywin, the foundation of the Lanister family.

Edited by Myrish swan, 30 May 2011 - 01:18 AM.

[Myrish swan]

Nukelavee, on 29 May 2011 - 05:21 PM, said:

Well, I don't blame the full extent of the Lannister situation on Cersei.

Yeah, don't bring up the prophecy, it doesn't help, lol.  Seriously, "A vile frogwitch claimed an evil twisted monkeydemon thing would ruin my life!  That proves the Imp did it!"  isn't exactly something that make the case more believable.  It's like Cat blaming Tyrion for Bran, of all the possible suspects, with actual motives that could be seen to be tied to the "game", they both pick the dwarf.

Btw, I really don't think Tyrion would have killed his father under other circumstances.  Ruined him, pissed in his soup (figuratively, mind you) whatever have you, but killing him?  I doubt it, I think Tywin died because Tyrion was wound up like a banjo string at that moment (and likely when he started up the ladder, too).

Regardless of whether Tyrion had been found guilty of murder and sentenced to death, I believe that yes, the moment he found out about the Tysha incident, Tywin's days were numbered. Tyrion, despite the fact that his father had mistreated him and loathed him his whole life, was very loyal to Tywin. (Remember that scene with the viper where he refuses to confess that Tywin was guilty of ordering the baby Targs killed? At that point, Tywin been finding Tyrion guilty for murder.) Your belief that "it was a combination of things" is not really supported by the text. Tyrion would have gone straight out and escaped were it not for learning about Tysha. And I honestly think that, iin any other situation, his reaction would have been much the same.

Also, once again you attribute far more power to Cersei to condemn Tyrion for murder than she actually had. Furthermore, there is ample evidence that Tyrion did it, and nearly everyone believes he did so. So why does the fact that Cersei believes Tyrion guilty as well make her irrational/ prophecy obsessed? The prophecy has nothing to do with it. Also, Tywin condenmed Tyrion, so why are you not blaming an mocking him like you are doing with Cersei?

Edited by Myrish swan, 29 May 2011 - 09:16 PM.

[Myrish swan]

The Undead Martyr, on 29 May 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

Tyrion was basically insane after Jaime told him about Tysha.  He's suffered slights, threats and insults for nearly all of his life,

Honestly, who hasn't? Most people do get through their lives without killing their father and an 18 year old sex worker.

Honestly, I have sympathy for Tyrion, but you are taking it a bit too far. He is an adult, and is still responsible for his actions. Furthermore, line him up next to the vast majority of the Westeros population, and see that the vast majority of them have probably suffered worse cruelty, injustice, and persecution without resorting to murder.

The Undead Martyr, on 29 May 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

he's blamed for sins he hasn't committed and unrewarded for his sacrifices.

Many people make numerous sacrafices that go unrewarded. That is why they are called sacrafices.

Honestly, Tyrion does some good things, but he also makes some major mistakes that lead to innocent people suffering. (I'll get to those in a minute.) However, I've found that the sufferings are generally focused on to a great extent, and the mistakes are totally glossed over. It has occurred to me that, since Tyrion is the character GRRM has admitted to identifying with the most, there could be some element of self-indulgence here, howevever, I won't speculate.

Anyway, though Tyrion does some good things, he often has ulterior motives. We have yet to witness him make a choice to help someone else that involves serious sacrafice on his part. Furthermore, he is petty, resentful, vengeful, and has a constant sense of entitlement. Again, all of this is glossed over, though.

The Undead Martyr, on 29 May 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

His father and sister both want to kill him and/or banish him

Because they both sincerely believe that Tyrion is guilty of murdering Joffrey. And they have ample evidence to back up their belief.

The Undead Martyr, on 29 May 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

he is condemned by family, friends, and just about everyone else for killing Joffrey at the royal wedding feast.

Again, because there is ample evidence. Also, Tyrion honestly (and oddly, since he is supposed to be so witty and charming) does not really seem to have that many friends. At all. The only few I can think of are Jaime and Bronn. And honestly, the argument that, this, too, is due to Tyrion's dwarfism is rather ridiculous.

The Undead Martyr, on 29 May 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

he is condemned by family, friends, and just about everyone else for killing Joffrey at the royal wedding feast- kinslaying and arguably guest right betrayal as well- despite literally risking his skin to save KL from Stannis.

But there is reason why the common people of Kings Landing dislike Tyrion, and were so willing to believe ill of him. He brought a bunch of guys into their town from mountain clans, who killed and caused disturbance of the peace. He actually has the nerve to get angry with the citizens of kings landing when they get angry with him, and hate him, despite the fact that said people are starving to death, and thus have every reason to be thinking irrationally. He is far more angry at them for hating him and indignant that they are so "ungarateful" than he is sympathetic to their truly horrible situation. He never tries to understand him, or examines what in his own actions may have lead to him being hated by the general populace. He simply resents everyone, and feels hard done by.

The Undead Martyr, on 29 May 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

When he goes up to Tywin's room, he finds Shae (his "lover") in Tywin's bed, and Tywin talks down to an armed Tyrion even as he's taking a shit.

He lost it.  Anyone less than a Buddha/Jesus figure would have at that point.

Shae is his employee, not his lover. In exchange for his money and material goods, she provided him with certain services (sex.) He had no right to expect anything else from her.

Furthermore, if he wanted to inspire some sort of love, or even loyalty, in Shae, he went about it in the wrong way. He treats her in a way that never loses sight of who the boss is (him) and who the underling is (her.) He claims to "love" her, but what he is really in love with is his own idea of a fantasy girlfriend.

The Undead Martyr, on 29 May 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

He lost it.  Anyone less than a Buddha/Jesus figure would have at that point.

Untrue. Many people could have gotten through that situation without resorting to murder done purely for vengeance. Also, murdering an 18 year old prostitute in bed was hardly a classy move, despite the fact that she did testify against him in court.

Edited by Myrish swan, 30 May 2011 - 01:09 AM.

[Snowmelter]

I've noticed many people coming down hard on Cersei for using sex as a weapon.  Men in Westeros do this all the time.  It's called rape.  My vote for worst person for their family would go to Robert. With all the blunders and willful stupidity of his it will be a wonder if there is a true blood Baratheon left at the end of the series.

[apt54]

Snowmelter, on 29 May 2011 - 10:07 PM, said:

I've noticed many people coming down hard on Cersei for using sex as a weapon.  Men in Westeros do this all the time.  It's called rape.  My vote for worst person for their family would go to Robert. With all the blunders and willful stupidity of his it will be a wonder if there is a true blood Baratheon left at the end of the series.

There are still around a dozen bastards who may become "a true blood" Baratheons should some king give them legitimacy.
Sa~ay, wouldn't it be cool if Jon became King in the North, Tommen took control of King's Landing, Edric claimed Stormlands? We would have A War Of Three Bastards haha

[jellydonut]

Cersei.

Catelyn may have started the war by capturing Tyrion.. but if she hadn't, it would have happened regardless. Either Robert would die from old age or Cersei would have him killed, Joffrey would succeed.. The North would not accept it and might even secede as they did in the actual story. Stannis definitely would not accept it, Renly would not accept it, Balon would use the chaos to secede, and things would happen pretty much the same way. Probably.

Cersei directly caused the downfall of her family through her idiotic actions. She altered the course, unlike Catelyn who tried for the best but failed, and really only hastened the conflict instead of causing it.

[CatelynFan]

Quote

Catelyn may have started the war by capturing Tyrion..

Except she didn't.  War was already inevitable; her capture of Tyrion just gave Tywin an excuse to invade the Riverlands, and she couldn't possibly guess that would happen.