[BOOK SPOILERS] Episode 105 discussion

[Arataniello]

Continuation of discussion of the titled episode.

[Spanky]

So was that a prosthetic boob or not? >_>;

[TheEvilKing]

It was real.

[xythil]

Boobs asside.. Whats the deal with Renly.

I don't remember him being a foppy douche...

Gay yes, but not a foppy douche..

[Chirios]

Since we were talking about sword fighting in the other thread I think it's useful to mention that Conan Stevens, the man who plays Gregor, is an ARMA trained swordsman. One of his favourite techniques when fighting with a sword and shield is to charge at his opponent and full speed. They end up so freaked by seeing this 7 ft beast charging at them them they just stand there shocked and stunned.

http://www.conanstevens.com/component/option,com_gallery2/Itemid,32/?g2_itemId=1664

[Huan]

It was real.

It was definitely a prosthetic, a good one though. It looked a little plastic after a while. No way they could have a child actor sucking on a real breast, even on HBO.

[Merentha]

Since we were talking about sword fighting in the other thread I think it's useful to mention that Conan Stevens, the man who plays Gregor, is an ARMA trained swordsman. One of his favourite techniques when fighting with a sword and shield is to charge at his opponent and full speed. They end up so freaked by seeing this 7 ft beast charging at them them they just stand there shocked and stunned.

http://www.conanstevens.com/component/option,com_gallery2/Itemid,32/?g2_itemId=1664

Interesting, and effective, especially with a shield. If you keep that in front of you, there actually isn't that much your opponent can do to stop you from barrelling down on them.

I just re-watched the Ned/Jamie fight, incidentally. It wasn't good fighting, still, but it was more exciting and better then I remember. I guess its more that the dialogue and verbal duels have been so stellar and tense that when a swordfight comes along, I end up expecting that same level and that's just not going to happen. Basically, I don't have as many complaints as I did. Wish I could just forget what's going to happen in upcoming scenes to make them more exciting, though. :P

[Lord Varys]

Really great episode. In my mind, probably the best of those that have aired until now. But the worst first:

- Littlefinger knows about Varys and Illyrio?! Really?!! Was that really necessary? Now I really feel as much without out balls as Conleth Hill looked like when Littlefinger told him he knew ;-). And I really want to hit Aiden Gillen every time I see him on the screen. I really did not know that this would mean that much to me... I think that might have been a mistake, as technically the series has now to elaborate on this more, and we should get a reason why Littlefinger is not going to sell Varys to Robert/Cersei/Tyrion/Tywin later on.

My explanation in the series really was that he did not know. Getting rid of Varys during the War of the Five Kings would have been a great asset for Littlefinger, as it would have greatly weakened the efficiency of the Lannister administration.

Besides that, I liked really everything, although I'd have preferred the original dialogue between Littlefinger and Renly during the tourney scene. Ned and the audience could have gotten there the proof that Littlefinger lied about the dagger.

The Loras and Renly scene felt awkward, and Renly seemed a little bit to unsure to me. Well, he should show his weaker side when he's alone with his lover, but I really considered Renly being at least as ambitious as Loras. Although it's very good that they made Loras the guy who convinced him to declare himself King. Renly would not have decided out of the blue to usurp Stannis and his two nephews. Him being an ambitious little plotter makes actually a lot of sense, although this differs strongly from the public image of Loras as a hot-tempered young knight. Renly's decision to crown himself most certainly more Mace's/Loras' decision as it was Renly's.

It really introduces him as an interesting multi-layered character, and it's also foreshadowing that the creators are most likely very eager to show us the Tyrell as the likable plotters they are ;-).

It's sad that the whole Margaery plan is gone, but foreshadowing Renly's coronation this season is much more important, as the audience clearly has to get a feeling about this bearded guy before he suddenly is yet another King.

The Cersei-Robert-scene was really great. I almost expected Cersei to talk about Rhaegar after Robert was done with talking about Lyanna. Thus both could have embraced their loathing for one another ;-). Painting the Dothraki invasion as real threat was good as well, and Robert and Cersei would have agreed on that topic, if not about anything else, as it did threaten both Robert and Cersei and her children.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Myrish Swan

The difference is largely in presentation, but the end result is the same-- LF ends up largely beloved; Cersei despised.

If you want me to expand on all the ridiculous ways in which GRRM glorifies Petyr and demonizes (or simply degrades) Cersei, I will, but I don't want to take up too much thread space on such an obvious issue.

I think that's the problem there. I don't find that Petyr is glorified. I think he's aptly portrayed as a calculating manipulator with no scruples. Hardly someone I'd admire. I do like his wit and his scheming, but then, him as a character is actually a lot less sympathetic than Cercei, to me. Cercei is a lot more complex than Petyr is. I enjoy finding out more about Cercei. Littlefinger holds interest to me only to the extent of solving a puzzle. The interest is not in him as a character but in the plot machinations that he brings. Maybe we will see more of Petyr now that Sansa is with him.

Re: Ormond

I have much of the same thought on Renly/Loras. I do find it a bit disappointing that the TV show gave us such unambiguous depiction so early on. The "are they/are they not" was rather fun. It's sad that every reader from now on who has seen the TV will miss that part of the reading experience.

In terms of casting, I've always thought of Loras as a version of Ricky Martin, being handsome and attractive to both men and women, and still in a teenager hearthrobe kind of way. In my head, I always pictured Loras to be the larger one physically than Renly, since Loras is supposed to be one of the best knights outside of Kingsguard and that aberration that is Gregor. I do find the actor casted for Loras to be a little on the boyish side, but then, plenty of gay men, stereotypical as it may be, do like that look.

[Isabella Stark]

I thought this episode was great.

I really liked the "new" scenes. I felt like I was watching things that had happened in the books, but we just hadn't seen them because of lack of POV.

Liked the Renly/ Loras scene: In addition to giving some motivation behind Renley's grab for the throne, I also thought it was setting up Ned blowing them both off- turning down Renley's offer of men to seize Joffrey, and declining Loras' volunteering to go after the Mountain.

But thought they were too stereotypically queeny gay.

In the high road scene where Catelyn et al are taking rest right before the hill tribes attack, I liked how Marillon is playing a song. My friends and I immediately cracked up and started singing "Brave, brave Sir Robin" (from Monty Python's Holy Grail). Love how annoying Marillon is.

Thought Lysa was wonderfully high strung and crazy. Catelyn's and Tyrion's reactions were priceless.

[xythil]

Really great episode. In my mind, probably the best of those that have aired until now. But the worst first:

- Littlefinger knows about Varys and Illyrio?! Really?!! Was that really necessary? Now I really feel as much without out balls as Conleth Hill looked like when Littlefinger told him he knew ;-). And I really want to hit Aiden Gillen every time I see him on the screen. I really did not know that this would mean that much to me... I think that might have been a mistake, as technically the series has now to elaborate on this more, and we should get a reason why Littlefinger is not going to sell Varys to Robert/Cersei/Tyrion/Tywin later on.

My explanation in the series really was that he did not know. Getting rid of Varys during the War of the Five Kings would have been a great asset for Littlefinger, as it would have greatly weakened the efficiency of the Lannister administration.

Besides that, I liked really everything, although I'd have preferred the original dialogue between Littlefinger and Renly during the tourney scene. Ned and the audience could have gotten there the proof that Littlefinger lied about the dagger.

The Loras and Renly scene felt awkward, and Renly seemed a little bit to unsure to me. Well, he should show his weaker side when he's alone with his lover, but I really considered Renly being at least as ambitious as Loras. Although it's very good that they made Loras the guy who convinced him to declare himself King. Renly would not have decided out of the blue to usurp Stannis and his two nephews. Him being an ambitious little plotter makes actually a lot of sense, although this differs strongly from the public image of Loras as a hot-tempered young knight. Renly's decision to crown himself most certainly more Mace's/Loras' decision as it was Renly's.

It really introduces him as an interesting multi-layered character, and it's also foreshadowing that the creators are most likely very eager to show us the Tyrell as the likable plotters they are ;-).

It's sad that the whole Margaery plan is gone, but foreshadowing Renly's coronation this season is much more important, as the audience clearly has to get a feeling about this bearded guy before he suddenly is yet another King.

The Cersei-Robert-scene was really great. I almost expected Cersei to talk about Rhaegar after Robert was done with talking about Lyanna. Thus both could have embraced their loathing for one another ;-). Painting the Dothraki invasion as real threat was good as well, and Robert and Cersei would have agreed on that topic, if not about anything else, as it did threaten both Robert and Cersei and her children.

How is the "margaery plan" gone?

You think because she hasn't been mentioned her role in the next... 5 books will be written out?

[Vuron]

- Littlefinger knows about Varys and Illyrio?! Really?!! Was that really necessary? Now I really feel as much without out balls as Conleth Hill looked like when Littlefinger told him he knew ;-). And I really want to hit Aiden Gillen every time I see him on the screen. I really did not know that this would mean that much to me... I think that might have been a mistake, as technically the series has now to elaborate on this more, and we should get a reason why Littlefinger is not going to sell Varys to Robert/Cersei/Tyrion/Tywin later on.

My explanation in the series really was that he did not know. Getting rid of Varys during the War of the Five Kings would have been a great asset for Littlefinger, as it would have greatly weakened the efficiency of the Lannister administration.

After watching again, I can't describe how strongly I agree with this. I know many people liked the scene and its "coolness factor" of seeing the 2 manipulators in a pissing contest, but it is totally unrealistic. There is no way those 2 would have an open discussion like this in a public place and there's no way they would divulge how much information they had on the other one. We're expected to believe that these 2 are the master manipulators of the series and they go blabbing to each other like little schoolgirls with a piece of gossip? I call shenanigans.

[stevelabny]

Ned is fighting for the lives of his men, Jaime has specifically stated that he wants Ned taken, not killed.

Ned is flailing like a lunatic, Jaime is parrying and dancing around.

Ned is winded, Jaime is smiling.

I don't get you guys.

Ned was doing everything he could to kill Jaime, and couldn't touch him. Jaime was toying with Ned.

How can so many people think that Ned looked too good or Jaime looked too weak or the sad few who think that Ned would have won? Nuh-uh.

Any other note about Varys-Littlefinger. Sure, its news to us that Littlefinger knows that Varys met with Illyrio, but he doesn't necessarily know who Illyrio is. LF threatens to tell Robert and Varys pretty much tells him go ahead...since Robert already knows that Dany is pregnant...and the news had to come from someone...suggesting that Illyrio was the messenger. The onyl thing that's actually new in this episode is that we can officially rule out that LF and Varys are working together. Which I never bought anyway.

[Alexia]

I really liked the scene between Robert and Cersei (though I was surprised they talked about Lyanna) and Varys/LF was pure gold. Great stuff.

I was disappointed that we didn't get to see the feast after the tourney, which I assume was cut for reasons of either budget or time. I was very surprised they didn't show the Sansa/Joffrey reconciliation that came about when Loras gave her that rose. I wonder how that will affect her arc later in the series - will she not go to Cersei in this adaptation? Or will she have a different rationale? Or will Sansa and Joffrey reconcile in the next episode?

I much preferred the Ned/Jaime scene as it was written in the books but my husband (a non-reader) loved that scene in the adaptation. There was something so perfect about Jaime ordering his men to kill Lord Stark's men and then riding off while everything happened.

I liked the Renly/Loras scene, but I raised a bit of an eyebrow at Renly's foppishness (afraid of blood? really?!). Yes, it was all very funny but it was definitely not the Renly of the books, who I always felt was way underrated and who I liked. Renly had a taste for pageantry but I always thought he was the best candidate of the five kings. I wouldn't put this Renly in charge of, well, anything!

Ya know, I'm getting to the point where I don't blame tv Lancel for giving Robert the spiked wine. After the way Robert treats him, I'd wanna brain him with his own hammer. You just KNOW robert makes him wear that hat!

:lmao:

Every time Robert and poor Lancel show up, I start laughing. Robert is really mean to the poor kid.

Basically, considering his deeds, very few readers hate LF. Many, as I've said, think he's very funny/ witty, and enjoy reading about him, despite the fact that he's a villain. People also seem to very rarely feel any sort of deep, personal hatred for him.

*snip*

However, still, I have yet to hear anyone profess to hate LF for this.

Then you need to do some more reading on the forum. I've seen numerous declarations of hatred for LF, made a few myself (seriously can't wait to see him die), and a few debates about whether or not he's inherently good or evil.

Also, finding him enjoyable to read about doesn't have anything to do with liking him as a "person" or whether or not he is a villain. I love reading about Jaime but I loathe him as a "person." Same goes for LF - looking forward to his comeuppance but I've enjoyed his character's inclusion in the novels.

[Andhaira]

Great episode. I was saddened that Bronn did not fight with a sword in each hand though. That scene really stood out for me in the book.

Jaime should have dominated his fight with Ned, instead they made them equals.

I agree that must have been a prosthetic boob. No way could it be real. Still, the actor playing sweetrobin will liekly never hear the end of it in his life. Probably be bullied for it in school.

[Valmy]

I think that's the problem there. I don't find that Petyr is glorified. I think he's aptly portrayed as a calculating manipulator with no scruples. Hardly someone I'd admire. I do like his wit and his scheming, but then, him as a character is actually a lot less sympathetic than Cercei, to me. Cercei is a lot more complex than Petyr is. I enjoy finding out more about Cercei. Littlefinger holds interest to me only to the extent of solving a puzzle. The interest is not in him as a character but in the plot machinations that he brings. Maybe we will see more of Petyr now that Sansa is with him.

I think Littlefinger is the most despicable person in the books (and this series has the Mountain in it so that is saying alot). I am not sure where it is universal that LF is beloved and Cersei despised.

Anyway I guess people who really do love LF should probably answer MS' points -_-

[ZombieWife]

Bubba Wrote:

Loras was definitely too skinny. I don't see how he even holds the lance. A body type similar to Renly's would have been better. The slurping sounds were too much. Yeah, you're sucking his penis, we get it.

Yes, it brought back memories of the first Joe Millionaire where you had that chick and the guy making out and they actually captioned "slurp" and such.

Overall, the episode was a good one. It was a bit more mixed for me in terms of highs/lows.

Lows:

Loras and Renly

I just didn't feel it between them and I desperately wanted to. It could be that they were trying to ultra-feminize Loras to some extent. In the end, I have to assume this is just a hiccup between what I had in my head (from the books) and what is being presented on the screen. It's not something I'll continue to harp on, but will take a while to sink in.

Varys and Littlefinter. While I (as a reader of the book) enjoyed watching them banter, my husband got completely lost. He said, "they're talking so fast and so quiet that I have no idea what they are talking about."

The Mountain and the Hound. I wanted more impact to that whole scene. There was massive buildup, from the killing of the horse to Gregor going after Loras. The king cut it off about 30 seconds too soon, imho.

Highs

Arya chasing cats and the dragon skulls. My guy literally sat upright and said, "are those dragon skulls!?" He looked like a little kid.

Robert and Cersei. Unlike other posters, I found the conversation to be a very tense moment in the episode. I thought Headey and Addy really did an amazing job on that scene. If they show clips during the Emmys/Golden Globes, I see this one as being included for either actor. I kept reading Headey's performance as a very bitter and stinging performance. She wanted to confirm her soon-to-be actions against Robert and forcing him to talk about Lyanna was, I assume, just the fuel she needed to go through with it.

Jaime and Ned. Great scene. I wasn't expecting Jory to die so quickly. Holy cow, that was just cold and heart-wrenching for me. Jaime using the excuse that Ned's wife had Tyrion was some good character building between Jaime and Tyrion.

Lysa and Robin. Oh boy. I have to guess, prosthetic breast here. I didn't think they would show that in the television series, but they did! Wow!

Tyrion looking over the edge of his cell was just dizzying. My husband (again, he hasn't read the books) said that he would go nuts in a place like that.

[Titans Bastard]

I don't understand the complaints about TV-Loras' body type. As somebody mentioned towards the end of the first thread, he's described as "slender as a reed". If this actor doesn't have the body type you pictured...well, that's fine, but you weren't picturing Loras as he was actually described in the books.

[Volderon]

Episode was fantastic up until the 25 minute mark, then things sloooooooowed right down to a snail's pace.

Renly and Loras was really weird. Actors seemed really uncomfortable.

And Robert and Cersei went on unbelievably long. I actually went to the bathroom during it.

Other than that, great episode though.

[L’Age d’or]

Jaime is the finest swordsman in Westeros, of course he would be superior in a fight against Ned who is much older and out of form anyway. If the best swordsman in Seven Kingdoms and a Knight of the Kingsguard had faced difficulty handling Ned I would be disappointed with the writers.