152 replies to this topic

[Lord Varys]

As Renly and Loras are portrayal more intimate in the series than in the books, that fact alone could motivate a discussion about them. But the really interesting thing in my opinion is that Loras is the more ambitious part in their relationship. In my opinion that makes really sense, and is likely how GRRM would have shown it, if he had ever shown us Renly/Loras closely. We should keep in mind that Renly is betraying both Robert's children and his brother Stannis when he is declaring himself King. As he is not really hating Stannis or his nephews, and is not even aware of the fact that they are not his nephews technically, this decision is a slap in the face of his family, and it would be highly unlikely that he made this decision mostly on his own. It had to come from the Tyrells (i.e. Loras) who most likely was more than a little turned on by the thought of being the gay Dragonknight to a good and decent King Renly.

And we should keep in mind that Stannis really has to be some kind of father substitute for Renly. Of course, he would have been a bad father, but it is confirmed that these two lived at least together at Storm's End during the Rebellion. Robert himself most likely spent not that much time with Renly, but Stannis' sense of duty should have really forced him to monitor Renly's upbringing as good as he could. From that POV, Renly crowning himself is really a slap in Stannis' face.

Anyway, I just think that Renly and Loras deserve their own thread.

[Clariana]

I see your point.  My husband who hasn't read the books said "Loras is ambitious" and my reply is "Well you don't really know, because you don't see him up close in the books".  But yes, it may have happened just like that... Interesting to have GRR as a consultant.

[Hyper]

I approve of them trying to setup Renly's ambitions better. There really wasn't much to explain it in the books.

They are certainly doing some heavy foreshadowing with this and the Theon scenes for season 2.

[Tywin's bastard]

I too agree on that it was very suitable to show Loras as the ambitious one that drives Renly to eventually want to claim the Iron Throne for himself. I don't have any problems with that their relationship is more in focus than in the book either. In the book there's no POV that would see that but their story is a very intriguing one, as well as bringing along very important events, so I support the decision to bring it to life.

[brook]

I didn't mind seeing Loras as the ambitious one, it fits what we know about the Tyrells. I just wish they hadn't seen the need to make Renly the sissiest knight in Westeros.

[TerraPrime]

brook, on 16 May 2011 - 05:44 PM, said:

I didn't mind seeing Loras as the ambitious one, it fits what we know about the Tyrells. I just wish they hadn't seen the need to make Renly the sissiest knight in Westeros.

Yes, because the title Knight of Flowers is so masculine and badass macho...

[Ran]

Loras is pretty masculine. Beauty and masculinity aren't really congruent.

But Renly's not a knight at all in the show, I think.

[brook]

TerraPrime, on 16 May 2011 - 05:49 PM, said:

Yes, because the title Knight of Flowers is so masculine and badass macho...

Sure but I can buy that tv Loras could still be a great fighter despite his less masculine traits. I have a hard time believing that tv Renly could convince anyone they should fight for him to be king.

I just think they still could have shown Loras to be the ambitious one without making Renly afraid of blood.

[Tywin's bastard]

brook, on 16 May 2011 - 06:10 PM, said:

Sure but I can buy that tv Loras could still be a great fighter despite his less masculine traits. I have a hard time believing that tv Renly could convince anyone they should fight for him to be king.

I just think they still could have shown Loras to be the ambitious one without making Renly afraid of blood.

I don't find it too hard to believe that people could be convinced to put Renly on the throne. We learn on the show that he's popular because he's kind and someone people like to be around (far more attractive traits for the commoners than valor in combat) and the only people he convinces that he should be king in the book are the people that have a ton to gain from having him on the throne (and just as in the show it might very well be they who convinced him) and that aren't very fond of the throne being in the grip of the Lannisters.

Edited by Tywin's bastard, 16 May 2011 - 06:19 PM.

[Damocles]

My opinion of Renly and Loras' portrayal is that it's awful. Unwatchably so. And what happened to Renly supposedly being the image of Robert in his glory?

[Trebla]

Loras makes a good case on why Renly is a good choice: Joffrey is a monster, Tommen is too young, and Stannis has "the personality of a lobster".

[King_Baratheon]

First off, I am grossly disappointed in the casting of Renly. He is supposed to look like a young robert, yet leaner and prettier. Also Renly wasn't a complete whiny wimp as he is portrayed so far in the show. So what if he's gay, he was still supposed to be a capable male character, not a wimpy whiner. Loras looked fine in his armor, but with his shirt off...the guy couldn't even lift a lance, let alone use one. I wouldn't have had any problem with the Loras on Renly scene if they didn't write Renly as such a milk-toast, and loras all of 115 pounds. Yes I know Loras was supposed to be thin, but you can still have some muscle and be thin.

Think about that Loras heading into dragonstone first. They wouldn't need to douse him in oil, they could just break his back with a poke from a stick.

[brook]

Trebla, on 16 May 2011 - 06:33 PM, said:

Loras makes a good case on why Renly is a good choice: Joffrey is a monster, Tommen is too young, and Stannis has "the personality of a lobster".

I think if I'd felt any hint of the Charisma that Renly is supposed to have I would have believed that, even if we'd actually seen evidence of the kindness that Loras says he has. I really hope that he gets a chance to display this in the next few episodes because right now I'm wondering how Stannis could possibly have a less inspiring personality than his little brother.

[Xxtayce]

Just watched the episode and my only thought is that this scene was written so wrongly, and so unnecessary. Yeah, the Tyrells could have gotten Renly up to it. But Loras? Isn't he the one who sleeps with Ceresi after Jamie is gone? I remember reading that Renly might not be all that into guys, but...

He's way too much of a wuss. VARYS has more balls than him.

[Ser Luke]

Loras looks soft and weak. Not what I envisioned for someone who dismounted The Mountain. Oh well.

[Ser Luke]

Xxtayce, on 16 May 2011 - 08:14 PM, said:

Just watched the episode and my only thought is that this scene was written so wrongly, and so unnecessary. Yeah, the Tyrells could have gotten Renly up to it. But Loras? Isn't he the one who sleeps with Ceresi after Jamie is gone? I remember reading that Renly might not be all that into guys, but...

He's way too much of a wuss. VARYS has more balls than him.

You should re-read the books!

[redwinger]

I have no memory of Loras nor Renly being completely gay. Loras giving him a BJ was bullshit imo. Yeah both are wussy and I've read the books three times...i did not cone away with anything remotely like the scene that was portrayed. Total disappointed in our. Tyrion on the other hand was great as usual. I've got a complete crush on that imp

[Xanrn]

Its bit hard to have Renly as Robert in his prime, when Robert is played by Mark Addy.

Renly looks like Mark Addy would if had ever had a prime.

Wonder how this will effect emo Loras with his what good is a candle when the sun has set.

Will he try and get into Joffreys pants? Jaimie? Stannis?!

[Xxtayce]

Ser Luke, on 16 May 2011 - 08:20 PM, said:

You should re-read the books!

Bah, I just remembered. (On my re-read now. Just finished book 1 again two days ago.) Either way I didn't see it going like that in my head.

[Ormond]

Xxtayce, on 16 May 2011 - 08:14 PM, said:

Just watched the episode and my only thought is that this scene was written so wrongly, and so unnecessary. Yeah, the Tyrells could have gotten Renly up to it. But Loras? Isn't he the one who sleeps with Ceresi after Jamie is gone? I remember reading that Renly might not be all that into guys, but...

He's way too much of a wuss. VARYS has more balls than him.

Rather than just being flippant like Ser Luke, I will point out to you that it was Cersei and Jaime's cousin Lancel who was the one who sleeps with Cersei, not Loras.