428 replies to this topic

[Greatjusticeman]

Sand Viper, on 01 July 2011 - 11:32 AM, said:

I think GRRM mentioned the hips to suggest that the potion given by her mother to stop her conceiving caused her hips to diminish. I don't think it's supposed to be a suggestion that the real Jeyne is still out there somewhere with Robb's child in her belly.

A son of Robb would not add much to the story - the ASOIAF story is going to end while such a child would still be too small to be a proper character. It would needlessly complicate the Winterfell succession plotline.

The only way GRRM could make a pregnant Jeyne plotline meaningful would be if Littlefinger or Roose Bolton found out about the switch and tried to hunt her down. Ultimately though the plot line would have to end with the miscarriage or death of the baby, so we can get back to focussing on the more important Winterfell characters.

Thats what I was thinking.

Even if Jeynde did escape Riverrun pregnant with Robbs' child, it won't do much rather then have people hunt her down and kill her. Otherwise, by the child is actually of age to do significant things, the story will probably be over.

As much as I like Robb, I'd rather see Bran, Sansa, Arya, Rickon, or Jon reclaim Winterfell rather then his child.

[Silverin]

Greatjusticeman, on 01 July 2011 - 11:44 AM, said:

Thats what I was thinking.

Even if Jeynde did escape Riverrun pregnant with Robbs' child, it won't do much rather then have people hunt her down and kill her. Otherwise, by the child is actually of age to do significant things, the story will probably be over.

As much as I like Robb, I'd rather see Bran, Sansa, Arya, Rickon, or Jon reclaim Winterfell rather then his child.

Well firts of all, according to the knowledge of those who would hunt her down Jeyne is not pregnant and she is with her mother. If Jeyne was switched they would still think this.
Second: If Jeyne is pregnant it can still be significant, because whoever marries her would be the stepdad of the heir and he would rule Winterfell. And in this scenario the Brandon/Cat/Ned scenario could repeate itself, which means the next in line boy would marry her. And in this case Jon/Bran/Rickon (ok he is a lille bit too young for that) could be the Lord of Winterfell. Not to mention the fact that Jon is supposed to be at the NW, according to his vow he supposed to have no childred. The same can be said about Bran, according to Ned he wont be able to have any children of his own because of the fall. Of course both can turn around but in this scenario, Robbs child could be crucial in continueing the Stark line.

[Faranya]

Sand Viper, on 01 July 2011 - 11:32 AM, said:

I think GRRM mentioned the hips to suggest that the potion given by her mother to stop her conceiving caused her hips to diminish.

So she has severe osteoporosis now, does she?

[Ser Lany Cassandra]

Sand Viper, on 01 July 2011 - 11:32 AM, said:

I think GRRM mentioned the hips to suggest that the potion given by her mother to stop her conceiving caused her hips to diminish. I don't think it's supposed to be a suggestion that the real Jeyne is still out there somewhere with Robb's child in her belly.

No, it is a matter of perspective.  First off she is a teenager who has never had a baby.  Cat notices her hips are good enough for this.  Period.

Jaime loves a full figured woman in her 30's who has had 3 children and ample padding on her hips.  Compared to Cersei, the only woman he has ever been with, her hips are small.

The difference is based on what the 2 people were thinking of when they looked at her.  Cat wanted babies, Jaime saw a skinny girl not worth losing a kingdom over (he is not sexually attacted, but he is not 16 either)

[Lord Damian]

We will wait and see but it make sense that she is pregnant. Remember, the seige and surrender of Rivverrun is not imed after the red wedding. She would have developed symptoms and a belly by the turn over of the Castle. Maybe her mother is simply trying to protect her daughter after failing to prevent pregnancy. Remember she is the older of 2 daughters. It appears the Westerlings were returning home with one daughter. Where is the 2nd?

[morbiczer]

Lord Damian, on 01 July 2011 - 05:17 PM, said:

Remember she is the older of 2 daughters. It appears the Westerlings were returning home with one daughter. Where is the 2nd?

GRRM just mentions Jeyne, and not the younger sister, Eleyna. But he doesn't mention their brother Rollam either. So did that 9 year old boy also swim out of Riverrun with the Blackfish?

Also, a Jeyne-Eleyna switch only works if Jaime and all the western lords don't notice that one daugther is missing. But when Jaime meets Sybell, she mentions that marriages were promised for both girls. So she reminds Jaime that she has two daughters, which would be a mistake if she is one daughter short.

[Lord Damian]

If there is no switch, perhaps the other daughter was left at the Crag.

[morbiczer]

Lord Damian, on 01 July 2011 - 05:43 PM, said:

If there is no switch, perhaps the other daughter was left at the Crag.

We know that the little sister was at Riverrun.

[Silverin]

morbiczer, on 01 July 2011 - 05:37 PM, said:

GRRM just mentions Jeyne, and not the younger sister, Eleyna. But he doesn't mention their brother Rollam either. So did that 9 year old boy also swim out of Riverrun with the Blackfish?

Also, a Jeyne-Eleyna switch only works if Jaime and all the western lords don't notice that one daugther is missing. But when Jaime meets Sybell, she mentions that marriages were promised for both girls. So she reminds Jaime that she has two daughters, which would be a mistake if she is one daughter short.

She could make a double switch.
Since Jeyne is the important Westerling girl, most people will pay attention to her, and if her characteristics dont resemble of the parents the people will get suspicious. In this scenarion, the one Jaime met should be a Westerling, the sister.
While her sister is not important, even if she is replaced, it would not raise suspiciouson since to the Lannisters she does not matter.

[Faranya]

morbiczer, on 01 July 2011 - 05:37 PM, said:

GRRM just mentions Jeyne, and not the younger sister, Eleyna. But he doesn't mention their brother Rollam either. So did that 9 year old boy also swim out of Riverrun with the Blackfish?

Also, a Jeyne-Eleyna switch only works if Jaime and all the western lords don't notice that one daugther is missing. But when Jaime meets Sybell, she mentions that marriages were promised for both girls. So she reminds Jaime that she has two daughters, which would be a mistake if she is one daughter short.

Rollam is there, he is mentioned by Sybell.

[Bella]

Well, Jeyne did try and ride out after Robb not long after they had left for the Twins - what is to say she didn't try and do it again later on because she missed him so much?

[Howl and Read]

We don't have to limit ourselves to the Robb's heir story arc. I'm a firm beleiver that it is not her, but I don't think she is pregnant.

I'm more interested in the Maggy the Frog story arc and whether her 'skills'in diving the future are hereditary to Sybell and Jeyne.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Bella, on 02 July 2011 - 10:45 AM, said:

Well, Jeyne did try and ride out after Robb not long after they had left for the Twins - what is to say she didn't try and do it again later on because she missed him so much?

I'm trying to finish a reread before ADWD finally arrives, and I'll be looking to see if there's something fishy about Jeyne's ride.  Even at the time it struck me that Jeyne was being excessively sentimental, to the point of embarrassing silliness.  Her behavior before the RW doesn't seem to comport with her previous demeanor, so maybe a closer parsing of that scene will yield another clue.  I'll also be checking the circumstances of each of Sybell's children.  I expect Eleyna (sp?) was described so briefly that she can't be discounted as New Jeyne.

Howl and Read, on 03 July 2011 - 09:13 PM, said:

I'm more interested in the Maggy the Frog story arc and whether her 'skills'in diving the future are hereditary to Sybell and Jeyne.

Hereditary?  I thought maegi skills were teachable magic (blood magic), though I suppose that as with anything else, some would have greater natural aptitude for a particular skill than others.  (BTW, didn't you mean "divining" the future?)

[Envie]

AvengingAryaFan, on 04 July 2011 - 11:26 PM, said:

I'm trying to finish a reread before ADWD finally arrives, and I'll be looking to see if there's something fishy about Jeyne's ride.  Even at the time it struck me that Jeyne was being excessively sentimental, to the point of embarrassing silliness.  Her behavior before the RW doesn't seem to comport with her previous demeanor, so maybe a closer parsing of that scene will yield another clue.  I'll also be checking the circumstances of each of Sybell's children.  I expect Eleyna (sp?) was described so briefly that she can't be discounted as New Jeyne.

I'm also doing a re-read - within a few chapters of the infamous red wedding now.

I disagree, though. Jeyne's 'silly' behavior was fairly obvious from day one. She even goes to Catelyn for 'advice' on how to comfort her new husband as he's brooding about his recent distasteful task of beheading Lord Karstark. Much to Catelyn's chagrine (gritting of teeth, still trying to fully absorb that her son has a wife).

This is a very very young girl who is madly head over heels in puppy love with Robb (or else an expert actress since even Catelyn falls for her innocent lovestruck routine). I think she's been acting just the way she should accordingly and her immense grief and disappearance after Robb's death don't really seem all that unusual or distinguishable in any way to me.

This theory is a real longshot, but its possible and would make a nice twist.

[Lord Damian]

Maybe Jeyne was riding out to tell robb she was pregnant or she just discovered that it was a trap.

[Marcus Adler]

Valmy, on 17 May 2011 - 03:48 PM, said:

Almost positive she is pregnant with Robb's child and was smuggled out.  How exactly I am not entirely sure.

You are correct, sir.  Well done.

[Faranya]

Lord Damian, on 04 July 2011 - 11:56 PM, said:

Maybe Jeyne was riding out to tell robb she was pregnant or she just discovered that it was a trap.

If she discovered it was a trap, and didn't shout it out loud as soon as she was in sight of Robb so everyone could hear, she is a terrible, terrible person.

On the other hand, I do disagree with the idea that she was acting consistently with her character. Her previous scenes had shown a girl who was trying really hard to fit the role of queen, even if she didn't quite fit it yet. Chasing after her husband twice when he is only leaving for a couple of weeks is excessive...

And her going to Catelyn wasn't a silly decision. Cat was the absolute best person to talk to about that topic; she was a wife, was Robb's mother, and had lived in the North for years.

[Ser Pistus]

Excuse my ignorance, but how is it possible that in a Lannister army nobody knows Jeyne Westerling?

[Faranya]

Ser Pistus, on 05 July 2011 - 01:47 AM, said:

Excuse my ignorance, but how is it possible that in a Lannister army nobody knows Jeyne Westerling?

Because the Westerlings are a small family and the Westerlands are a big place. I don't know what country you are from, so I will use the United States as the example (it seems like a decent guess...)

Would you recognize the governor of Maine's daughter on sight? Or, on the off chance that you actually know the governor of Maine personally, how about the governor of Hawaii's daughter?

Edited by Faranya, 05 July 2011 - 01:50 AM.

[Ser Pistus]

Faranya, on 05 July 2011 - 01:48 AM, said:

Would you recognize the governor of Maine's daughter on sight? Or, on the off chance that you actually know the governor of Maine personally, how about the governor of Hawaii's daughter?

This is my point exactly. If I lived in Maine, I would probably recognize the governor of Maine's daughter. And if I was the neigbor of the governor of Maine, then I'd recognize his (her?) daughter for sure.

Wherever the Crag is, they must have some neighbors, and some of these neigbors are almost surely in the Lannister army besieging Riverrun.