313 replies to this topic

[Valonquar]

Robert's Rebellion started when Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon Stark along with several important squires, and demanded the heads of Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon. The reason they were killed is because Brandon rode to King's Landing demanding to fight Rhaegar, because he believed Lyanna had been kidnapped by him. We know she was taken by Rhaegar, but due to speculation on this board regarding Rhaegar's personality and his relationship to Lyanna, especially as in regards to a possible child and the Herrenhall tourney (that almost everyone here seems to agree on), I think it likely that Lyanna did in fact come willingly, and was not opposed to a union with Rhaegar (despite the fact that she was betrothed to Robert Baratheon.) This obviously makes the Stark reaction unnecessary, as it seems unlikely that they would object to a marriage to the crown prince of the realm, especially if Lyanna was behind it (even though this would cause a scandal due to her betrothal to Robert and the unusualness of polygamy in Westeros.)

.. So why, if Lyanna wasn't taken against her will, did she, or Rhaegar for that matter, give no word to Rickard Stark about it? Even a "Hi dad, I've run away with Rhaegar so we can fulfill a prophecy, I know that's bad but he's like the prince so whatever" would probably have ensured that he wouldn't have done something aggressive. Of course Aerys reaction to it, branding it treason, was also unwarranted, however I'm guessing Rhaegar either didn't tell him about it cause.. well he's mad, or that he was against Rhaegar's dream - point is that Rhaegar/Lyanna should have expected some reaction to what they did. So, can anyone find a logical reason why they didn't make sure nothing bad happened because of their actions, or should I consider this a minor plothole in Martin's writing?

Edited by Ran, 17 May 2011 - 06:31 PM.

[Myshkin]

You're forgetting that Rhaegar was already married, with several children.  Lyanna was never going to be his wife, just his whore.  Even if she was okay with that, her family probably wasn't.

[wolfeyoung]

Rhaegar and Lyanna could have ran back to Aerys once they heard that Brandon was held for treason, however, with Aerys being a nutcase and all, maybe he just didn't listen to his son. Maybe at that point Aerys wanted to kill Brandon for his arrogance in demanding Rhaegar to come out and die. We know so little of what happened during that time period. And I don't think we've ever gotten a reaction from Rhaegar and Lyanna about the war.

Wasn't Rhaegar's story something like this: He kidnapped Lyanna and a year later he's battling Robert on the Trident? Is there any info of what he was doing in between? And Lyanna is worse. Kidnapped by Rhaegar and boom, she's at the Tower of Joy, dieing in Ned's arms.

[Dragonfish]

Myshkin, on 17 May 2011 - 04:20 PM, said:

You're forgetting that Rhaegar was already married, with several children.  Lyanna was never going to be his wife, just his whore.  Even if she was okay with that, her family probably wasn't.

Targaryens practiced polygamy in the past, so there's no reason to rule out the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna had planned to get married.

[Prince of Dinas Emrys]

Dragonfish, on 17 May 2011 - 04:36 PM, said:

Targaryens practiced polygamy in the past, so there's no reason to rule out the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna had planned to get married.

Targaryens yes, but not Starks! Their belief that Lyanna had been kidnapped may have been a simple miscommunication, but that was indeed their belief. Brandon and Rickard's actions are entirely reasonable given the information that they had.

[Blue Steel]

You're right -- it doesn't make sense that Lyanna wouldn't say anything if she wasn't taken against her will.  But it doesn't make sense for Rhaegar to kidnap her either based on what we know about his character.  So was Lyanna being an idiot? I don't think so.  What I think happened is she ran away willingly with Rhaegar and probably left some message to someone, maybe Benjen.  It did not reach Brandon or Rickard before someone lied and told them that Rhaegar kidnapped her.  I don't know who could have done that but it could have been Varys, or any number of people.  

[Crazy theory]Benjen probably felt guilty about the deaths of Rickard and Brandon, which is why he joined the Nights Watch.[/Crazy theory]

It doesn't make sense that Lyanna would run off without letting anyone know.  If it wasn't Benjen, it could have been someone else who betrayed her trust and did not tell Brandon or Rickard.  

Knowing what we know about her character from Meera's story, I do not think she would jeopardize the people she loved without thinking it through.

Edited by Greatness, 17 May 2011 - 04:50 PM.

[Elrick]

Dragonfish, on 17 May 2011 - 04:36 PM, said:

Targaryens practiced polygamy in the past, so there's no reason to rule out the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna had planned to get married.

Ahh yes something bothers me with that theory though. For one Targaryens did in the past practice such but it was something that they didn't do much anymore. Or at least from what I could gather, mainly in due to the fact that it seemed that Aerys only had one wife? Or did he have many? LOL see the prob is that Martin doesn't mention this much in the books so my assumption is that the Targs stopped such practices.

It is possible though that Lyanna and Rhaegar were set out to marry but something just doesn't feel right about that proposal.

[Dragonfish]

Prince of Dinas Emrys, on 17 May 2011 - 04:45 PM, said:

Targaryens yes, but not Starks! Their belief that Lyanna had been kidnapped may have been a simple miscommunication, but that was indeed their belief. Brandon and Rickard's actions are entirely reasonable given the information that they had.

This is a valid point, as it accounts for why Brandon and Rickard reacted the way they did. But I was objecting more to Myshkin's point that Lyanna could never be Rhaegar's wife, which I don't think is true.

Greatness, on 17 May 2011 - 04:48 PM, said:

Knowing what we know about her character from Meera's story, I do not think she would jeopardize the people she loved without thinking it through.

Lyanna is described as having "a touch of the wolf's blood" (while Brandon is described as having "more than a touch"). She's also often compared to Arya, who we know can be a bit rash or impetuous, and who yearns to break out of the traditional role assigned to women. So IMO, it's not at all out of character for Lyanna to run off with someone on a whim, someone whom she chooses to be with, rather than someone whom her family chooses her to be with.

[Dragonfish]

Elrick, on 17 May 2011 - 04:59 PM, said:

LOL see the prob is that Martin doesn't mention this much in the books...

Exactly. Why would Martin go to the trouble of creating a precedent for Targaryen polygamy and then use it sparingly? Because he's trying to set up a future plot twist involving Jon, IMO.

Elrick, on 17 May 2011 - 04:59 PM, said:

...so my assumption is that the Targs stopped such practices.

AFAIK they did stop practicing polygamy, but I think that was voluntary, I don't think they were forced by law or something to stop. So there's really no reason why Rhaegar couldn't revive the practice, especially if he thought the future of the world was at stake.

[Maia]

Dragonfish, on 17 May 2011 - 05:03 PM, said:

This is a valid point, as it accounts for why Brandon and Rickard reacted the way they did.

Huh? We have no clue about Rickard's reaction. Personally, I think that there was a message and either it didn't reach Brandon in time or Brandon chose to disregard it. And yes, I think that Benjen had something to do with it.  IMHO, it was Brandon who was retarded, rather than Lyanna. And even then there wouldn't have been a war if Aerys wayn't so very mad.

[Xenophon]

Given her brother's hotheadedness (and Arya's too, actually), I don't find it that implausible that she just took off with Rheagar without much warning.  She must have known that her family wouldn't allow it, since he was married and she'd been promised to Robert, so she ran away, not thinking much about how her family would interpret this.  It probably never occurred to her that her brother would think she'd been abducted and go crazy.  After all, there were many hints that this wasn't what happened.

[Dragonfish]

Maia, on 17 May 2011 - 05:17 PM, said:

Huh? We have no clue about Rickard's reaction. Personally, I think that there was a message and either it didn't reach Brandon in time or Brandon chose to disregard it. And yes, I think that Benjen had something to do with it.  IMHO, it was Brandon who was retarded, rather than Lyanna. And even then there wouldn't have been a war if Aerys wayn't so very mad.

Oops, you're right, it's Brandon's reaction we should be focusing on here. I only mentioned Rickard because the poster I was responding to mentioned him as well.

[Sandsnake]

The thing that doesn't have me convinced is that she hated that Robert was an unfaithful man. So why would she run off with someone who is cheating on his wife, or agree to be his second wife?

[Joy Lannister]

She was fifteen. Even if she was retarded, I don't see how she could force Rhaegar to 'kidnap' her if he didn't want to. So, they are in this together. Hope that GRRM has a very good reason for it. "Madly in love" doesn't count for a good reason and will probably take them both to the top of the "most stupid character" chart. Most stupid and egoistic character.

[Blue Steel]

Joy Lannister, on 17 May 2011 - 05:25 PM, said:

She was fifteen. Even if she was retarded, I don't see how she could force Rhaegar to 'kidnap' her if he didn't want to. So, they are in this together. Hope that GRRM has a very good reason for it. "Madly in love" doesn't count for a good reason and will probably take them both to the top of the "most stupid character" chart. Most stupid and egoistic character.

It doesn't make sense that they would be so stupid though.  Yes, Lyanna was rash, but she must have left word with someone about the truth.  Whatever happened, if she told someone who didn't relay her message or if she used a bird that got captured.

So either they were really stupid or they were betrayed.

[viniS]

Anyone who walks into the hall of a king who is known as "Mad King Aerys" and demands that he be allowed to fight the crown-prince to the death is retarded.

[Xenophon]

Sandsnake, on 17 May 2011 - 05:24 PM, said:

The thing that doesn't have me convinced is that she hated that Robert was an unfaithful man. So why would she run off with someone who is cheating on his wife, or agree to be his second wife?

There's a big difference between casually screwing whores, and having a single mistress, especially if you believe this mistress is necessary to fulfill a prophecy that will save the world.  Also, on a more mundane level, there's a big difference between being cheated on oneself, and getting someone else to cheat on their spouse, as we see all the time in RL.

[Dragonfish]

Greatness, on 17 May 2011 - 05:30 PM, said:

It doesn't make sense that they would be so stupid though.  Yes, Lyanna was rash, but she must have left word with someone about the truth.  

Well, if Lyanna was rash, as you yourself admit, then why is it that hard to think that she didn't leave word behind of what she was doing? It seems like you've accepted that she's rash but you don't want to accept the natural consequences of that.

Furthermore, it's entirely possible that Lyanna didn't consider that her actions would lead to war. We of course know that they did, but we have the benefit of hindsight.

Edited by Dragonfish, 17 May 2011 - 05:52 PM.

[Phantomwriter05]

My theory is that Rickon knew about what happened and went down to Kings Landing to settle matters. (I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have come judging by what he knew of "King Scab")

It wasn't until Aryes threatened Rickon's children that all matters of shit went down.

Plus Lyanna was fifteen, she was a Teenager. I'm sure that if it was love that she didn't think about what would happen.

Think about her nephew crowning himself King of the North and of the Trident when he was 15 ...

[SFDanny]

I believe Rickard and Brandon - and likely Ned and Benjen as well - knew all along Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly. After all, the brothers were at Harrenhal with Lyanna and know of the events there. They, along with the rest of Westerosi nobility, know of the blue roses Rhaegar gave their sister. They know of her reaction to Rhaegar's song. They, I believe, know of Lyanna's and Rhaegar's  roles in the Knight of the Laughing Tree saga. They know, I think, of the romance started there between their sister and the Prince. On top of this, Ned, at least, knows of Lyanna's reservations about her betrothal to Robert that follows the tourney. All of this is likely known to Lord Rickard as well via his sons or servant's reports, if not Lyanna's own words to her father - which doesn't stop his announcement of the engagement.

In short, Brandon and Rickard don't act the way the do, I believe,  because they believe Lyanna was kidnapped and she was too "stupid" to send a message, but because they - especially Brandon - are outraged that Lyanna and Rhaegar would ignore Rickard's right to choose whom she would marry, coupled with a Northerner's view of polygamy, and the importance of honoring the Stark's given word. Please note that when Brandon shows up at King's Landing demanding for Rhaegar to "come out and die" he says nothing about releasing his sister. Seems to me that is because he knows she wasn't kidnapped.