[BOOK SPOILERS] Is the show being heavy-handed?

[SerArthurHeath]

^ Actually from that same scene, I thought the part that was heavy-handed was LF naming The Mountain/Gregor after saying (aside) to Ned: "Now don't we know someone who fits that description?" I don't think we needed LF to spell that out.

I assumed it was LF being a dick, which was entirely within character?

[SerArthurHeath]

The LF/Ned scene was really weak. He was over the top with his hints, it's not like Ned is slow or stupid so he has to spell everything out for him. Also, that villager's descriptions of Gregor's actions in the Riverlands were too much. Burning children alive? Really? Anyways, I understand that HBO is aiming for a broader audience so I can withstand lack of subtetly in most of the scenes, although some were really brutal - like Renly and Loras in 5th episode.

I'd have agreed with you except see what happens to Ned shortly after this, even AFTER LF spelled out the fact he was screwed to him- plus LF hates Ned. Plus none of these things that are heavy handed in the show were that subtle in tbs books- they were revealed more slowly, but the books had ages to do that. Everyone knew that Joff wasnt Robert's before Ned did, surely? Nobody thought LF was a good guy? The only one that's been far more obvious was Renly and Loras

[Parev]

This whole idea of ham-handedness by the show is why I recommend people read the books first. Some things are introduced with such subtlety, and the experience of discovering them for yourself upon further reading and pondering, is something that you can't get back when you get a bunch of stuff handed to you by watching the show. (Or get beat over the head with, e.g. Renly & Loras)

[Anomandaris86]

The LF/Ned scene was really weak. He was over the top with his hints, it's not like Ned is slow or stupid so he has to spell everything out for him. Also, that villager's descriptions of Gregor's actions in the Riverlands were too much. Burning children alive? Really?

It's Gregor Clegane.

[Skillet]

One place where I wish they'd been more subtle is with Theon.

Non-book reader friends of mine have already surmised that he's going to turn on the Starks.

I remember being completely thrown off by Theon's betrayal (and in fact, after finishing GoT the first time, I don't think I even recalled who he was). I think the show should've kept that same mysteriousness, and really develop his character S2.

This is one of the places where I think the direction of the show points to clues about the future of the book series. I had wondered about that when I first started watching the show. Only GRRM knows how it is all going to end, so he knows what must be properly introduced to viewers. For example, my current guess is that the absence of Ned's dreams/flashbacks in the show probably means that all of the posters who dwell on R+L=J might have it completely wrong and are severely overestimating the importance of Ned's book thoughts. On the other hand, if future episodes throw in references to "Promise me Ned" then maybe I'll change my mind.

With regards to Theon, after reading AGoT I assumed he was a minor character at best. During ACoK I figured I was wrong and he would actually turn out to be important. By the end of ACoK he is seemingly killed off, and I assumed I was mistaken after all, and that in fact he was just a temporary storyline. Now I have to change my mind a third time. From watching the TV series, it seems clear that GRRM has something important in mind for Theon. There's no way the show would have focused so much attention on him just to set up his initial betrayal. I think his storyline is going to continue until the bitter end.

[Anomandaris86]

ADWD Spoiler

You do know he is a POV in A Dance with Dragons don't you?

[Kalbear]

You do know that's a spoiler for the book series, right?

[Anomandaris86]

I assumed everyone knew that by now.

[valacirca]

I assumed it was LF being a dick, which was entirely within character?

Yes, but "Now don't we know someone who fits that description?" is enough to show him being a dick and goading Ned. I just felt that actually naming that person-who-fits-the-description as Gregor afterwards was the heavy-handed part, as if Ned and the viewers won't be able to figure it out.

But I'd admit that's just nitpicking. I loved the episode. I wasn't crazy about that scene in the throne room (same as the chapter where it was taken from), but I loved the episode nonetheless.

[Bronn Stone]

I assumed everyone knew that by now.

The FAQ for the Forum makes good reading.

[aeu]

-The dragon eggs. Is there any doubt that they won't hatch at this point?

No, but I think this became apparent pretty quickly in the books as well. Virtually every early Dany chapter has a part where she thinks about the eggs, feels movement in the eggs, sees Dragon dreams, etc..

Compare and contrast what they've done with 'Game of Thrones', with a series like 'Rome'. They managed to do Rome on a similarly limited budget, but in such a way as to make it feel far more epic, complete with a truly epic battle. Not to mention, the combat was far more brutal and kinetic, than they've managed to show.

Rome had an epic battle? I don't remember that at all, though I do remember one decidedly anti-epic battle. They had not even tried to show a realistic battle, just zoomed on Brutus and shook the camera a little bit. Not that I'm criticizing them, they probably said "it's TV, we are not making a huge battle seem real, so we will make it clear that we are not trying and failing." That's fine by me, but that does not make an epic battle scene.

The fight scenes were generally good though.

Also, that villager's descriptions of Gregor's actions in the Riverlands were too much. Burning children alive?

In the books, Gregor burns people alive inside a keep when he is pillaging.

[johnnysd]

I know they have to cut out a lot of minor details in this show, leaving only important stuff, but I kind of wish they would be more subtle on some of these things. When Ned started reading from that lineage book and ended with "Joffrey Baratheon, gold of head" I couldn't help but roll my eyes a little bit. I think we get it.

Two other things that stood out:

-Theon getting pissed on and constantly reminded of his hostage status. His betrayal won't come as any great surprise. Also removing him kicking the head makes him seem a lot more sympathetic than he actually is.

-The dragon eggs. Is there any doubt that they won't hatch at this point?

Thoughts?

Disagree I think it plays extremely similar to the books. You KNOW the answers so it seems more heavy handed and repetitive than it is. The books are actually much much more heavy handed we just notice it less.

[johnnysd]

I know they have to cut out a lot of minor details in this show, leaving only important stuff, but I kind of wish they would be more subtle on some of these things. When Ned started reading from that lineage book and ended with "Joffrey Baratheon, gold of head" I couldn't help but roll my eyes a little bit. I think we get it.

Two other things that stood out:

-Theon getting pissed on and constantly reminded of his hostage status. His betrayal won't come as any great surprise. Also removing him kicking the head makes him seem a lot more sympathetic than he actually is.

-The dragon eggs. Is there any doubt that they won't hatch at this point?

Thoughts?

Disagree I think it plays extremely similar to the books. You KNOW the answers so it seems more heavy handed and repetitive than it is. The books are actually much much more heavy handed we just notice it less.

[Trinket]

The show is very heavy handed. And I don't agree that it has to be because of the medium. It is a complex plot involving many people, but the information that the viewer needs can be conveyed in less blatant manner, such as valacirca suggests.

Having your characters talk loud to themselves in order to get the idea across (like in the dark of hair part) is pretty poor, imo, even if I really like the series (and of course the books). I doubt I would have enjoyed the series this much if I hadn't read the books though, considering the heavy handedness. Having to spell things out easily comes across as silly.

[Anomandaris86]

In the books, Gregor burns people alive inside a keep when he is pillaging.

Not to mention that we already know he is capable of dashing a baby's head against the wall and then raping and killing the baby's mother with its brains and blood still on his hands. There's pretty much nothing Gregor is incapable of doing.

Anyway, as far as the Riverland raiding is concerned, Tywin admits that the purpose of it was to draw Ned out into battle. As such, making it brutal is more likely to get Ned's attention, and I'm sure Tywin knew this. For all we know, he gave special instruction to Gregor to be particularly brutal.

Disagree I think it plays extremely similar to the books. You KNOW the answers so it seems more heavy handed and repetitive than it is. The books are actually much much more heavy handed we just notice it less.

I think the issue is that the books have so many extra details in them that it isn't always apparent which ones are really important. So while they may have the same amount of "heavy-handedness" on certain things as the show, they naturally don't come across as such due to simple dilution. Of course for the show they have to trim a lot of fat. Maybe this is unavoidable due to the medium but I still think there are a few things they could have done better.

On the other side though, they seem to be "lighter-handed" on some of the other things. Like Littlefinger. They seem to really want his betrayal to come as a surprise. They've had plenty oppurtunities for Tyrion to say that the dagger isn't his and that he would never bet against Jaime, but those have been carefully omitted. Which means he also doesn't get to call Littlefinger out: "I'll have you know, Lady Stark, that it is not your hand he speaks of..." So they're definitely wanting people to think Littlefinger is on the side of the Starks. In the books it was fairly obvious that Littlefinger was full of shit, at least as far as the dagger was concerned.

[fall from grace]

It's a pretty funny contradiction that we have fans saying that the show moves along too fast for the non-reader audience to get it, and we have fans saying that the show is too heavy-handed. The truth is probably in the middle with the first group underestimating the non-readers perception, and the second group underestimating how much their experience changes their own perceptions. It's of course not the most subtle of TV shows but my own experience with the non-readers (people I know and things I watch/read on the internet) is also that they get everything important but the general viewers aren't seeing much of what's coming before it hits them other than guesses from standard storytelling etc.

The show is putting out a ton of information (the TS's notion that they have only left the important parts is just wrong in my view) and it's obvious that the non-readers won't grasp everything without watching it a few times. The show must thus point on the important parts more so what the non-readers grasp is sure to include everything important. A reader will of course already know everything so grasping the information is far easier for them, which means that the emphasis on the important details will be much more blatant. The same goes for the book where you're sure to miss several details on the first time but things get much easier on a reread, despite that books are generally more subtle than TV when judging comparable works.

My impression of other great shows (including other HBO ones like Rome or Deadwood) has often been that when I've watched them a second time with someone that's seeing it for the first time I often felt unsure if I just missed things (now that they seem so apparent) and always fear that the other viewer is going to pick up on everything just because everything is so much more obvious on the second run. Of course they never do, it's just my perception that's altered.

This seems a bit contradictory. You say they make him too obvious a traitor and too sympathetic. Since when is treachery a sympathetic deed? Theon is a hostage in both book and show, that's no different. Unless they change it in the show he didn't intend to betray Robb either, until his father had different ideas and Theon found out that he was seen as a soft weakling that had no right to the Iron Islands. There's nothing subtle about that Theon was a risk for Robb in the book either as Catelyn is very clear about how foolish it was to send Theon instead of someone else.

I agree. I really don't think I could follow half of what is going on in the TV series, if I hadn't read the books. I think things have to be more obvious, if the television audience even has a chance of keeping up with the plots.

I hear a lot of complaints about the Theon story line, but I was uncertain of who he was until about halfway through book one, so it seemed like his story came out of nowhere in book two. I really like how they have developed Theon more in the TV series. Yeah, it won't be much of a surprise when Theon turns on the Starks, but was it ever really a surprise? Catelyn never wanted Rob to send Theon as the messenger. Also, I think it is good to make Theon more sympathetic. Winterfell is not his home - he doesn't have a place there, but then come to find out, he no longer has a place at his real home, either. Dunno, it works for me.

As far as Ned reading the book aloud, I didn't see it as being heavy handed. I assume it was that *he* finally got it. I would think that the television audience would have clued in before then, seeing that we were privy to what Bran caught Jamie and Cersei doing at Winterfell. The few people I know that haven't read the books, but are watching the TV series, pretty much got that right off the bat. Ned was the one who needed a child to point out the obvious. :lol:

[spikebrennan]

I took those as LF being cheeky to Ned rather than actual attempts at helpful comments.

I agree. My take on LF's comments to Ned was that LF has so little respect for Ned's cognitive ability that he feels that he has to lead Ned down the garden path to the conclusion and the result that LF wants.

[Vestrit]

Hmm, think some of you are being a touch too critical here.

I agree that the handling of Loras - Renly was really, really annoying and totally over-the-top. Now, there's no way people would have picked up on it from the tv show if it was anywhere near as subtle as in the book, and the shaving scene was perhaps necessary in terms of setting up Renly's later move to be king. But the sea-change from a really subtly-handled sideline to the plot to an over top scene with slurping etc was pretty rubbish.

That bit aside, I don't think the series has been over-the-top or heavy-handed. Of course it seems that way to a book-reader, but remember that whether you realise it or not, you're actively looking for the clues. Most people are just trying to absorb the story, and the clues will only make sense to them later on or on a re-watch. Viewers will miss a lot of things that are right in front of them - for example, the makers of The Sixth Sense thought that they had gone too far with their clues and had given it all away, and yet the ending still blindsided everybody. It's blindingly obvious on a re-watch, but I've yet to meet anyone who clocked it on the first watch (cue: a bunch of internet heroes saying they got it...).

As for LF naming Gregor: again it may seem heavy-handed to a book reader, but without it being spelled out, how would a 'virgin' viewer connect the person being described to a character they saw briefly a few episodes ago? The horse killing is the only clue there and again you're asking for quite some recall for someone who saw that scene a few weeks back now and a lot has happened since. Leaving it at 'Don't we know someone of that description' wasn't going to be enough - the viewer would be left thinking 'Christ, I've met about 50-odd characters in the last five weeks, can you just tell me who it is?'

And as for Ned reading out the entries in the lineage book: Could someone suggest how else this scene could have been handled well? A voice-over of him thinking would have been lame. He had to come to the conclusion whilst alone; having him say it out loud to another person in the room would have been too much of a departure because then you've got the question of who would he say it to. And, anyway, if they did do that, the moaners would just complain that the scene was an unnecessary info-dump... The writers can't win :rolls eyes:

[Drowned Princess]

I agree. I saw it as Littlefinger goading Ned to do something really stupid, such as antagonizing Tywin Lannister, rather than spelling it out for the audience.

I also agree with this: I just think the perceived "heavy-handedness" of the Littlefinger comments is him being a cock to Ned and ultimately patronizing Ned, trying to rub his face in it until Ned feels like he has to do something epic, even if just to shut Petyr up.

[King_Baratheon]

We've read the books. My wife, who hasn't, didn't catch on to Joffrey et al. being Jaime's children until last night's episode when Ned was going through the book of lineages. "(paraphrasing) Why's he going on about the hair? Ohhhh. Joffrey is Jaime's son!" So it may seem heavy-handed to us, but not to the median viewer. Though I tend to agree about Theon. We get it. Oh curse your sudden yet inevitable betrayal!

I agree, my girlfriend hasn't read any of the books and it didn't click with her until the "Joffrey Baratheon, Gold of hair." I think it's easy for us to say they're over-doing everything that was subtle in the books, but that's TV folks. I think the same thing is going to apply to the Theon situation. It's a surprise in the books, but there was always underlying resentment lingering around; of course TV is going to have to make this obvious. Remember that they are sprinting through the story here people.