[Book Spoilers] EP106 Discussion Part Two

[Xray the Enforcer]

continue. remember to keep it civil and keep it classy.

[MountainThatRides]

Over all, it was splendid. Thus far there's been a benchmark of quality first set by episode three and matched by every episode since. There have been slower ones, sure, but they've all been excellent overall, and episode 6 is no exception. I give it an 8.5/10, and if these early episodes are this good, man, imagine when we get to the actual story. Imagine the real episodes. Oberyn vs. Gregor? What's that going to be, 12/10?

The dialogue in this episode had me very satisfied. I know they can't keep George's words line-for-line, and they throw us readers a bone every now and then, but this one really felt like the book was coming to life. It won't get any better than this, in terms of dialogue fidelity, until we see George's episode. Kudos for Jane Espenson on her fantastic job. Maybe she can get the Joss to write an episode!

The wolves' absence in the wildling scene: obviously it would have been better with the wolves. More faithful, more visually impressive, probably more entertaining. But it still worked. Osha could be different -- I always pictured her as lean, plain, flat-chested, tall, somewhat severe looking, but still kind of hot in a weird way. Like "if I was drunk, I'd totally nail her," sort of thing. That actress looks promising nonetheless.

I've come to terms with several of the character changes. Renly in particular had me griping and gnashing my teeth, but at this point I'm just going to go with the flow and trust in Dan & Dave. Martin trusts them (OK, so copious presidential portraits probably helped that trust) and I will too. He might not be the Renly we know and love, but he's a well-rounded, three-dimensional character and for a finite, bit character in a television adaptation, that's more than you can ask for. The jury is still out on Roz; I'll warm up to her when she actually facilitates the storyline, which I'm sure will happen eventually.

The Syrio "death-god" line was pretty metal, in a monotheistic way, but I don't really see any glaring connective arrows to Jaqen. They're both Braavosi. Several posters in the previous discussion thread made all of the competent points (like the verbal 'pay attention' smack) so I don't need to talk about it.

Cheers: Mark Addy, Harry Lloyd and Peter Dinklage. Mord was great. The titular scene hit me in all the soft spots -- the "thud" of Viserys's gilded head hitting the floor was icing on the cake. No Wall scenes, which I think is good. Non-readers, while far more acerbic than most of us probably give them credit for, are in for a wild ride of hide-and-seek. Characters and storylines will disappear and reappear fresh, and it will do wonders for clouding recollections regarding plot points and intrigue. I think the muddied water is really going to help the inevitable punches.

Jeers: The hunt. Yes, it's old news by now, and as everyone's said, they just must be separated from the main party. Budget constraints, yes, yes. I know why the hunt was so lame. Doesn't mean I have to like it. They couldn't get like 4 extras dressed up as men-at-arms to trudge silently along behind them? The Vale scene was good but it was also very different than I expected. Vardis should have been older. Lysa could (not should) have given him a sword. The moon door in the floor is cool, but it makes the name kind of idiotic. You can't see the moon from a door in the floor. I guess it's just called that now because it's round. Like the moon. Maybe there's a carving of a moon on it, I didn't really see. The Bronn/Vardis fight was satisfying, but it was a little weird that they did it in the throne room instead of the godswood. Or a garden, or great hall, or practice yard. Or, you know, any open place where the combatants weren't constantly bumping into random nobles and candelabras and shit. No statue of the Maiden, either, but Bronn still dispatched Ser Vardis with flair. Bronn had some good lines. Not quite as cut-throat as he was in the books, but I'll give him time to marinate.

Lastly, what the fuck is going to happen when everyone's favorite actors are gone? Maisie Williams and Peter Dinklage are in for the long haul, followed by runners-up Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and Baldy who plays Varys (forget his name, but I like him), but the heavy hitters are on their way out. Harry Lloyd already bit the dust, and he did a fantastic job making us want to watch the most despicable character in book one. Soon Big Daddy Addy and the Mean Bean will follow suit. Here's hoping they'll fill that power vacuum with some total bad asses. Arnold as Shagga! Not a good match, physically, but I always hear Shagga's lines with Arnold's accent. Blame it on Conan. Crom!

[MindLikeWarp]

I said in the last thread that I think Bronn could beat anyone one on one. But I should have said except for the Hound of course, as someone pointed out.

[Maia]

Re: the deeply ridiculous hunt - would it have been that much more expensive to have them riding and have horns sounding and dogs barking in the background? That would have already made it more plausible.

Also, wildlings wearing cloth? That goes completely against their characterization. Yet another missed chance to say a lot about characters through costuming alone. Also, how wimpy are they that Robb can defeat them all and how wimpy is Osha that he can just shake off her hit? Even if the dogs now hate each other, they could have had _one_ of them in the scene - preferably Summer. I really hope that they go CGI with wolves in the next season - this dog thing isn't working at all.

And yes, the series may be turning Robb into a bad-ass, but it will really change his arc, which is that of a boy out of his depth.

Otherwise, a very enjoyable episode, IMHO.

[valacirca]

Quite sad to see people hating on the hunting scene now that I've convinced myself that that was a Kurosawa homage (is there anywhere we can ask to confirm if that scene was a concious homage to Rashomon?) :P Although to be quite honest, homages aside, it was the weakest link in the entire episode, rivaled only by the Theon-Ros bit.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Also, how wimpy are they that Robb can defeat them all and how wimpy is Osha that he can just shake off her hit? Even if the dogs now hate each other, they could have had _one_ of them in the scene - preferably Summer. I really hope that they go CGI with wolves in the next season - this dog thing isn't working at all.

And yes, the series may be turning Robb into a bad-ass, but it will really change his arc, which is that of a boy out of his depth.

Otherwise, a very enjoyable episode, IMHO.

Robb is a badass in battle though. He's a boy out of his depth politically. Yet he led numerous charges and killed a lot of men personally, as well as following the Blackfish's great tactical and strategic advice.

I think that was his first kill, though. So should have been pretty scary for him! Poor boy. :)

Oh as to why the wildlings were so easy for Robb to overwhelm... they looked pretty poor and underfed to me - which makes sense as they've been fleeing on foot for hundreds and hundreds of miles. I would be surprised if they had been at half their usual strength. Plus there's the whole well-trained and well-fed thing that young lords have going for them.

[Greywolf2375]

I said in the last thread that I think Bronn could beat anyone one on one. But I should have said except for the Hound of course, as someone pointed out.

The Mountain; but Best Fighter in Westeros is currently a thread in the books section.

Hrm? Made up character? As opposed to...?

As opposed to any of the myriad characters that are in the books and are not either mentioned or have only been mentioned in passing.

[Cereal Forel]

Plus everything we know about the typical wildling suggests that someone with a bit of combat training could tear them to shreds easily.

The bigger question is WTF were they doing that far from the Wall?

[Hodor_Targaryen]

I don't have a problem with the hunt other than the silly conversation between Renly and Robert. Renly never came across as the type who would be bothered by casualties of war.

Re: the deeply ridiculous hunt - would it have been that much more expensive to have them riding and have horns sounding and dogs barking in the background? That would have already made it more plausible.

Having them on horseback with horns and dogs would make sense if they were hunting foxes, but they were hunting boar which is done on foot, with blades. Or possibly the white hart, but there was no mention of that.

I loved the exchange between Lysa and Bronn after the fight - "You don't fight with honour!" "No. He did!"

[NW Deserter]

I loved the exchange between Lysa and Bronn after the fight - "You don't fight with honour!" "No. He did!"

Line of the episode, IMO (maybe second to the closing line). I forgot to mention how awesome Jerome Flynn (sp?) is at portraying Bronn, the age differences aside. I was watching by myself and still let out an "oh snap!" when he said that.

[Abaddon]

And yes, the series may be turning Robb into a bad-ass, but it will really change his arc, which is that of a boy out of his depth.

That ship flew when they aged up the kids. I'm not sure how old he's supposed to be in the show, but it's way older than the 14 of the books. But that's okay, it's still going to be credible that his fatal mistake will be made for love, that happens to men and women of all ages.

[Balefont]

So as to not derail this thread and future discussion threads, I started a thread regarding the incessant presence of Ros in the series here in the general GoT forum.

[Ser_Niall]

Loved this episode, my favorite so far. The Eyrie scenes were great, and just how I imagined them from the books. I also thought the crowning of Viserys was very well done, the actor who plays him did an excellent job.

After the scene where Beric Dondarrion volunteers to hunt down Ser Gregore, I realized we didn't get to see him and Thoros joust in the tourney (and we also didn't get to see Thoros' flaming sword). Would have been fun to see a few minutes devoted to these guys during the tourney episodes, since they have some semi-significant roles later on in the story. I say semi-significant because it seems like most of their actions are in the background during the war.

[Quoth]

I don't have a problem with the hunt other than the silly conversation between Renly and Robert. Renly never came across as the type who would be bothered by casualties of war.

Having them on horseback with horns and dogs would make sense if they were hunting foxes, but they were hunting boar which is done on foot, with blades. Or possibly the white hart, but there was no mention of that.

I loved the exchange between Lysa and Bronn after the fight - "You don't fight with honour!" "No. He did!"

I was thinking this, too, about the criticism regarding the hunt. I'm no expert on the subject. Much less about medieval style hunting with a King involved. But it seems to me that a certain amount of, well, stealth would be the order of the day?

[Ser_Niall]

I was thinking this, too, about the criticism regarding the hunt. I'm no expert on the subject. Much less about medieval style hunting with a King involved. But it seems to me that a certain amount of, well, stealth would be the order of the day?

Don't think they really cared about stealth. Robert just wanted to get away from the throne, get drunk, and perhaps kill an animal. Renly's being dragged along for the ride, and couldn't care less if they get anything.

Also, I forget if its mentioned in the book, is the wine poisoned with some sort of "extra" intoxicant, or was Lancel simply instructed to make sure the king was good and wasted on normal wine? Does Lancel know what he's doing, or is he being an unknowing pawn to Cersei?

[Aganerral]

Don't think they really cared about stealth. Robert just wanted to get away from the throne, get drunk, and perhaps kill an animal. Renly's being dragged along for the ride, and couldn't care less if they get anything.

Also, I forget if its mentioned in the book, is the wine poisoned with some sort of "extra" intoxicant, or was Lancel simply instructed to make sure the king was good and wasted on normal wine? Does Lancel know what he's doing, or is he being an unknowing pawn to Cersei?

In the book, it was 'fortified wine', so stronger than normal...though I really doubt that Robert has an issue getting drunk anyway...he'd have drunk plenty of normal wine if given the chance. But Lancel was doing it on Cersei's orders/suggestion. I can't remember if that's revealed in this book or the next, though.

[Cereal Forel]

He definitely knew what he was doing. Cersei all but flips her lid when she finds out that he survives the Blackwater and becomes all pious because of everything he knows.

[Quoth]

Don't think they really cared about stealth. Robert just wanted to get away from the throne, get drunk, and perhaps kill an animal.

You pretty much described most modern day hunting parties. :lol: I'll go along with that. The point is, though, it doesn't seem unusual to me that a small band of guys go out into the woods to hunt without four or more footmen tramping along who'd just scare off the wild game.

[Ser_Niall]

He definitely knew what he was doing. Cersei all but flips her lid when she finds out that he survives the Blackwater and becomes all pious because of everything he knows.

This is true, I'm going to do a reread before Dance With Dragons comes out. Its been a while :)

[Wunhopkuendo]

Don't think they really cared about stealth. Robert just wanted to get away from the throne, get drunk, and perhaps kill an animal. Renly's being dragged along for the ride, and couldn't care less if they get anything.

Also, I forget if its mentioned in the book, is the wine poisoned with some sort of "extra" intoxicant, or was Lancel simply instructed to make sure the king was good and wasted on normal wine? Does Lancel know what he's doing, or is he being an unknowing pawn to Cersei?

This is the king hunting. It is much more like a guided preserve hunt than an actual wilderness hunt. Most likely, there are dozens of other men "pushing" the boar towards the king's party so that the king can get the kill. This is where all the extras people are complaining about not having are located. They may even have wounded it somewhat for safety measures, not that it did much good in the end.