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Why does everyone call her Cersei Lannister and not Baraetheon?


Free Northman

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Cersei has been married to Robert for 15 years. Why does everyone in the realm call her Cersei Lannister, from the nobles right down to the random sellsword who makes lewd remarks about her in AFFC? They refer to Catelyn as Catelyn Stark, to Lysa as Lysa Arryn etc, but Cersei remains Cersei Lannister when casually referred to by pretty much everyone.

Why?

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Cersei has been married to Robert for 15 years. Why does everyone in the realm call her Cersei Lannister, from the nobles right down to the random sellsword who makes lewd remarks about her in AFFC? They refer to Catelyn as Catelyn Stark, to Lysa as Lysa Arryn etc, but Cersei remains Cersei Lannister when casually referred to by pretty much everyone.

Why?

Similarly, why were Lannister men at arms hanging around kings landing in the first book? We don't see baratheon guardsman (or any other noble house), but there are lannister men at arms there. The only lannister is jaime, who is a kingsguard member and would not have lannister armsmen. After 14 years, i can't imagine cersei would still keep her father's armsmen around.

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Similarly, why were Lannister men at arms hanging around kings landing in the first book? We don't see baratheon guardsman (or any other noble house), but there are lannister men at arms there. The only lannister is jaime, who is a kingsguard member and would not have lannister armsmen. After 14 years, i can't imagine cersei would still keep her father's armsmen around.

I think that answers the first question. Nobody calls Cat a Tully because she doesn't have much of an independent power base anymore. Cersei is there with a ton of guards loyal to her birth-family, which is why people don't see her as simply a part of Robert's household. For example, we speak of Eleanor of Aquitaine, not Eleanor of France, or Eleanor of England. I think Cersei's like that.

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After 14 years, i can't imagine cersei would still keep her father's armsmen around.

When she was in the process of scheming against the king and his brothers? Of course she would have her own personal forces around. It wouldn't even be suspicious. Renly had his own forces, and so did Ned Stark and other members of the court, and nobody batted an eye.

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What I've come to learn since I joined this board is that no matter how unlikely or illogical something in the books is, there are always multitudes of viewpoints who find a way to explain it away as perfectly understandable.

Why is it so difficult to admit that just maybe George didn't think that one through properly. HE thinks of her as Cersei Lannister. WE think of her as Cersei Lannister. But he, and therefore we, know her inner motivations, her contempt for the Baratheons and the fact that she still considers herself a Lannister of the Rock.

But in a situation where the entire claim to the royal line depended on her association with the Baratheons I don't think the realm would have seen it in the same way.

She'd be Cersei Baratheon in the mouth of the common man, like Catherine Middleton is now Catherine Windsor. It's not a marriage between equals, for Pete's sake. It's a marriage into the royal family of Westeros.

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But in a situation where the entire claim to the royal line depended on her association with the Baratheons I don't think the realm would have seen it in the same way.

She presents herself in public as a Lannister, she (and her children) used Lannister images in their heraldry in a very prominent way, and so people followed that lead.

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She presents herself in public as a Lannister, she (and her children) used Lannister images in their heraldry in a very prominent way, and so people followed that lead.

So let me get this straight. The only Great House in the realm where the wife is not known by the surname of the House she married into, and where she in fact "presents" herself to the realm as representing her former family, is none other than the Greatest House of all. The Royal House.

I cannot remember any other Great House where the wife is not known by the House's name. But Cersei is able to humiliate the ROYAL house by doing so, and doing it for no less than 15 years into her marriage?

Does no one find this remotely unbelievable? Heck, knowing Tywin's political skill, he would have put a stop to it the moment he saw it, since it is in his interest to have her and her children be seen as Baratheons as soon as possible, ESPECIALLY given the uneasy nature of the arrangement that made him king in the first place.

If the Starks, Arryns, Tullys, Tyrells etc. that sat down and picked the new king after the Rebellion thought even for a moment that the Lannisters instead of the Baratheons were maneuvering themselves into power it would have threatened the stability of the realm.

Which is exactly what happened in the end, only it took a beheading to make it all erupt. The point is, Cersei so openly displaying her Lannister colours all over the newly established Baratheon institution which was still looking for legitimacy after the Rebellion is just nuts.

I don't think it is realistic.

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In true life, she'd be called a Baratheon, but Martin wanted to emphasize her "Lannister" side and keep her separate from house Baratheon. IE, Martin didn't want to dirty House Baratheon with an "evil" Lannister so he kept the names separate, IMO.

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She presents herself in public as a Lannister, she (and her children) used Lannister images in their heraldry in a very prominent way, and so people followed that lead.

:agree:

Maybe in royal marriages the bride gets to keep her family name if she wants to - what's really important is that the children bear the king's name, after all. Also, while we're on the subject, Margaery is still called Margaery Tyrell rather than Margaery Baratheon even after marrying Joffrey and then Tommen.

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I cannot remember any other Great House where the wife is not known by the House's name. But Cersei is able to humiliate the ROYAL house by doing so, and doing it for no less than 15 years into her marriage?

Sure, why not? If Robert isn't going to start a fight over it, and we all know how ineffectual he was over more important matters, why would anybody else have much success?

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:agree:

Maybe in royal marriages the bride gets to keep her family name if she wants to - what's really important is that the children bear the king's name, after all. Also, while we're on the subject, Margaery is still called Margaery Tyrell rather than Margaery Baratheon even after marrying Joffrey and then Tommen.

I think it's fair to say that Margaery's marriage only happened during the course of the last book we read. And her husband is still only 10 years old.

I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say that she'll be known as Margaery Baratheon in 15 years time - if she lived that long, of course.

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I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say that she'll be known as Margaery Baratheon in 15 years time - if she lived that long, of course.

You don't think that you're going out on a limb? You're ignoring textual evidence so that you can stick to your belief that this is an inconsistency. You're very much out on a limb.

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You don't think that you're going out on a limb? You're ignoring textual evidence so that you can stick to your belief that this is an inconsistency. You're very much out on a limb.

Wait let's back track a little. Are you suggesting that I actually said something contentious here? Are you saying that you believe Margaery Tyrell is intended to remain known as Margaery Tyrell instead of Baratheon to the public at large?

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Are you saying that you believe Margaery Tyrell is intended to remain known as Margaery Tyrell instead of Baratheon to the public at large?

If Cersei can do it, she can as well. (The reverse is also true; if the Tyrells can get away with it, why not the Lannisters?)

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So Cersei can do it because Margaery can, and Margaery can do it because Cersei can?

I....see.

I take it they were suggesting that shows a pattern (Queens keep their original family names).

What about Elia Martell? Was she ever called Elia Targaryen? Not a queen, but close.

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