Yarl Snow Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 After reading the Dunk & Egg novellas, and rereading some of ASOIAF, it occurs to me that Dunk and Brienne are similar in many aspects. So I thought I'd start a thread and explore this topic.First off, and perhaps the biggest thing: In AFFC, we learn that a shield with a heraldry that resembles Dunk's was supposedly in the armory at Tarth. This may imply friendship or kinship. Furthermore:- Brienne and Dunk are physically similar: Dunk is large (for a man), Brienne is large (for a woman).- They are both extremely honorable.- They are both not very clever. Dunk refers to himself: Dunk the lunk, thick as a castle wall.- Dunk is a hedge knight, out on the road, similar to Brienne's storyline.- Both were Kingsguard members, Dunk for Aegon V (Egg), and Brienne for Renly.- Both have squires (Podric and Egg/Aegon), found by chance on the road.- They have a similar outlook, such as "People such as him will never like me, no matter what I do.", or "I am too dumb to understand this."Last night, I also found a reference in ASoS, when Jaime and Brienne have their talk in Harrenhal's baths, where Jaime says to Brienne: "Are you thick as a castle wall?" Which may be a nudge-nudge from GRRM.And another reference in ASoS, in a Tyrion chapter: Podric studies Dornish heraldry diligently, much like Egg used to do. Bronn even says the almost exact same thing that Dunk told Egg, that "reading books will hurt your eyes." (paraphrasing)What other similarities are there? And perhaps most interestingly, what does this similarity mean? What does it say about Brienne's future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evamitchelle Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 I actually get the feeling that Brienne is somehow a descendant of Dunk's. Of course, considering his vows as a member of Aegon's Kinsguard, it seems unlikely that he would have had any children at all, since they take a vow of chastity along their oath to serve, and Duncan strikes me as a man who would actually respect his vows (they are few enough in ASoIaF), but there is a whole portion of his life that we know nothing about yet. He might have fathered children between leaving Whitewalls and joining the Kingsguard (with Tanselle Too-Tall maybe ?), so there's hope yet for that theory.I think you've gotten most of the references, at least I can't think of more right now. I missed them all the first time around because I hadn't read the Dunk&Egg stories then, but I'm in the middle of a complete re-read, so I'm hoping to catch all those I missed on my first read. The "are you thick as a castle wall" one by Jaime is a nice catch btw, I don't think I've seen it used anywhere else in the main novels. It could definitely be an indication of the relationship (physical or spiritual), between Dunk and Brienne.Oh, I actually have one more reference/parallel, but its based on an unconfirmed theory For what its worth :- Neither Dunk nor Brienne are knights, yet they are the truest knights in their timeFor the theory that Dunk isn't a knight, go here .Edit : Well, the theory IS confirmed. See Dragonfish below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Oh, I actually have one more reference/parallel, but its based on an unconfirmed theory For what its worth :- Neither Dunk nor Brienne are knights, yet they are the truest knights in their timeFor the theory that Dunk isn't a knight, go here .You might be interested to know that GRRM has confirmed that Dunk was not knighted.So your parallel is perfectly valid. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evamitchelle Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Ah, nice to know ! GRRM makes it seem as if Dunk becomes a knight in the end though. I hope we'll get more Dunk&Egg stories later on (but I'll be content with ADWD for now). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarl Snow Posted May 28, 2011 Author Share Posted May 28, 2011 I never considered Brienne's knight status. I assumed that being trained for war by a master of arms, entering a melee at Renly's tourney and joining his Kingsguard, she had been knighted. Do we have any references to Brienne never being knighted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evamitchelle Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 There are some clues that seem to indicate that Brienne has received a knighthood - joining Renly's Rainbow Guard the biggest among them, but smaller things as well, like Podrick Payne calling her "Ser" - but I personally don't think she is a properly anointed knight. For starters, I think that if she had been one, she wouldn't have felt so out of place among the rest of Renly's knights, her title would have been enough to show some of them that she was a capable fighter. Traditionally though, I don't think we've ever heard of women knights in Westeros before, and the general procedure to becoming a knight seems exclusively reserved for boys. According to the Wiki of Ice and Fire Page about knights, the traditional process to becoming a knight involves being a page and a squire first, and I don't think any knight or lord would have accepted a girl as a squire, even one as big and manly as Brienne, for fear of being ridiculed by his peers. Of course Brienne's deeds could have earned her a knighthood (like winning the melee at Bitterbridge), if she had been a man, but I don't think any Lord or Knight would have willingly knighted her, because it probably would have reflected poorly on them.I don't think there's confirmation on this, but I'm pretty sure that if she had been a "real" knight, it would have been enough of an oddity to be remarked upon at least once. So my belief is that Brienne does not have a knighthood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Grandfather Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 There are a couple of characters who are also referred to being 'thick as a castle wall', both Grenn and Small Paul of the Night's Watch are made fun of in such a way. Both of them are tall, strong and not that smart, could it be that they are descended from Dunk too? Or is it just a common phrase? Probably a red herring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evamitchelle Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 There are a couple of characters who are also referred to being 'thick as a castle wall', both Grenn and Small Paul of the Night's Watch are made fun of in such a way. Both of them are tall, strong and not that smart, could it be that they are descended from Dunk too? Or is it just a common phrase? Probably a red herring.Is this in Storm ? I'm re-reading Clash at the moment, but I haven't yet seen the Night's Watch's guys mentioned as such. If that's the case, it probably means it's a common Westerosi phrase then. In any way, the biggest indication that Brienne might be descended from Dunk is the shield she saw in her father's armory IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarl Snow Posted May 28, 2011 Author Share Posted May 28, 2011 There are a couple of characters who are also referred to being 'thick as a castle wall', both Grenn and Small Paul of the Night's Watch are made fun of in such a way. Both of them are tall, strong and not that smart, could it be that they are descended from Dunk too? Or is it just a common phrase? Probably a red herring.Can you provide quotes or references for when Grenn and Small Paul were called "thick as a castle wall"?Yes, of course it's a phrase. You don't just make things up when you say them. Though I do not remember it being mentioned about anyone but Brienne. Makes me wonder if The Hedge Knight or ASoS were published first.. gonna have to go check that now.ETA: ACoK came out 1998, ASoS 2000, and The Hedge Knight 1998. So, around the same time that Brienne was introduced into the series, GRRM also introduced Dunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Grandfather Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Is this in Storm ? I'm re-reading Clash at the moment, but I haven't yet seen the Night's Watch's guys mentioned as such. If that's the case, it probably means it's a common Westerosi phrase then. In any way, the biggest indication that Brienne might be descended from Dunk is the shield she saw in her father's armory IMO.It is in Storm, in the Prologue for Small Paul and then towards the end in the NW election for Grenn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evamitchelle Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Thanks, I'll check the references (though I'm sure you're right).Well, after a little research on the web I found that GRRM supposedly said that we had met a descendant of Dunk's, and a cue as to who it was would be given in Feast. Can't find the source directly from GRRM though, only mentions of what he said and various forums/blogs. This certainly seems to point towards Brienne being that descendant, but without the actual quote, I can't tell if he's talking about a character we meet for the first time in Feast, or a character whose POV we get for the first time. I'm still hoping it's Brienne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Lion of Castamere Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 So how could she be related to Dunk and still be a Tarth? Maybe the Evanstar's mother was Dunks daughter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyDogIsNamedDanerys Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Thanks, I'll check the references (though I'm sure you're right).Well, after a little research on the web I found that GRRM supposedly said that we had met a descendant of Dunk's, and a cue as to who it was would be given in Feast. Can't find the source directly from GRRM though, only mentions of what he said and various forums/blogs. This certainly seems to point towards Brienne being that descendant, but without the actual quote, I can't tell if he's talking about a character we meet for the first time in Feast, or a character whose POV we get for the first time. I'm still hoping it's Brienne.I'm sure it's Brienne. The clue is the heraldry Brienne has painted on her shield. She describes heraldry that is identical to Dunk's - and she remembers having seen it in her father's armory. The link is pretty explicit.Dunk must have married into the Tarths, somehow...? or at least fathered a bastard who was later legitimized...? Though, again how an ex-hedge knight made kingsguard would gotten involved with a noble family is beyond me. Perhaps GRRM plans to reveal all in another Hedge Knight story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlk7e Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 but I don't think any Lord or Knight would have willingly knighted her, because it probably would have reflected poorly on them.If Renly was willing to let her into his Kingsguard, I don't see why he wouldn't have been willing to knight her. But I don't think he did. Brienne is a warrior maid on a quest, not a lady knight on a quest.In terms of Dunk - Dunk is about 90 years older than Brienne, so he'd probably be her great grandfather, or even great-great-grandfather if they're related. Remember that Egg (a few years younger than Dunk) is great-grandfather to Robert, Stannis, Renly, Viserys, and Dany, who range from about 15 years older than Brienne to five or six years younger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmflavius Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 This all puts aside the fact that Dunk, as LC of the Kingsguard, could not have had children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 This all puts aside the fact that Dunk, as LC of the Kingsguard, could not have had children.He could have had children before becoming a member of the Kingsguard. At the very least, he must have had children at some point, since GRRM said we'd meet a descendant of his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monday Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 I've long felt that Brienne was not a decendant of Dunk. I think that if Dunk had children he wouldn't have joined the Kingsguard. My crackpot theory is that Brienne is Tansel Too Tall's great great grandaughter, or whatever. Maybe Dunk found Tansel again and asked Aegon to help her out with a good marriage or some land or something. Tansel's kids and grandkids made good marriages and good business decisions so they climbed socially to the point where Brienne's mom married the lord of Tarth.He could have had children before becoming a member of the Kingsguard. At the very least, he must have had children at some point, since GRRM said we'd meet a descendant of his. Where/when did he say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 I think that if Dunk had children he wouldn't have joined the Kingsguard. This doesn't make sense. Why would having children keep him from joining the Kingsguard? Jeor Mormont joined the Night's Watch despite having a son, and that was a much bigger commitment than joining the Kingsguard.And anyway, if what someone posted above is true (that GRRM said we'd meet a descendant of Dunk's), then we know Dunk must have had a child/children. That said, though I've seen this factoid mentioned many times on this forum over the past few years, it may just be an unconfirmed rumor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monday Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 This doesn't make sense. Why would having children keep him from joining the Kingsguard? Jeor Mormont joined the Night's Watch despite having a son, and that was a much bigger commitment than joining the Kingsguard.And anyway, if what someone posted above is true (that GRRM said we'd meet a descendant of Dunk's), then we know Dunk must have had a child/children.The Mormont situation was unique. IIRC Jeor joined the Night's Watch because of his son's shenanigans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 The Mormont situation was unique. IIRC Jeor joined the Night's Watch because of his son's shenanigans.No he didn't. Jeor Mormont joined the Night's Watch before his son dishonored himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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