Books you would never recommend to a non fantasy reader

[palimpsest.]

This makes sense. I guess I was asking more about what traditional fantasy books you'd recommend to somebody who's open to that but whose usual fare is classics or capital-L-Literature. (Assume they've already read, and enjoyed, LotR.) You've listed some more literary-leaning speculative fiction, mostly set in the real world, which is valuable to point out to people who think everything "not real" sucks, but it's very different from the kind of fantasy most people who identify as fantasy readers usually read, you know? I could rec One Hundred Years of Solitude too and nobody would claim it wasn't literary enough, but it's not really in keeping with most of the genre.

Well, you gotta start somewhere, and I don't want to push people away from fantasy by recommending long fantasy epics, however good they might be :) I like to recommend the books I listed not because they lean towards 'serious' literature or because they are set in the real world, but because they are all excellently written, they have very strong plot and great writing style. I prefer to start slow, with books I mentioned before, and if people like them well enough, I'll recommend similar ones ... and sooner or later they'll be reading 'true' fantasy. Or not, but at least they'll have broadened their literary horizons. :)

I only do this with people who think fantasy is silly, made for children, or 'not real literature', though. If people don't have anything against fantasy but simply never stumbled across it, I recommend GRRM and most of them get hooked. :)

[peterbound]

Well, you gotta start somewhere, and I don't want to push people away from fantasy by recommending long fantasy epics, however good they might be :) I like to recommend the books I listed not because they lean towards 'serious' literature or because they are set in the real world, but because they are all excellently written, they have very strong plot and great writing style. I prefer to start slow, with books I mentioned before, and if people like them well enough, I'll recommend similar ones ... and sooner or later they'll be reading 'true' fantasy. Or not, but at least they'll have broadened their literary horizons. :)

I only do this with people who think fantasy is silly, made for children, or 'not real literature', though. If people don't have anything against fantasy but simply never stumbled across it, I recommend GRRM and most of them get hooked. :)

Most of the time. I recommended it to one of my best friends, and he put it down at the first instance of 'named' swords. Lame.

[Nukelavee]

There likely are books I wouldn't lend to a friend to get them started...but, personally, I base the book on the reader's likes.

I agree with age having an effect on what a reader will put up with. I also read Dune at 10 or 11...in 1978.

For Sci-Fi - Niven. He does nice solid stories, with an easy style, and "cool" future worlds. Plus, so many things in his stories have been used by so many others (improved, deepened, extrapolated...), that reading him means recognizing something in later writers.

[Liadin]

N.B. The books I mentioned tend toward the weird side. If you want less weird recs, well, there are also books like Swordspoint / Privilege of the Sword. But when you rejected Trin's suggestions and talked about wanting "traditional fantasy" recs, I assumed you meant secondary-world fantasy with different races, monsters, magic, and so forth. I mean, really, compared to realist fiction, is Lord of the Rings less weird than The Scar? But The Scar strikes me as tonally much closer to "capital-L literature" in the way it avoids ex machina setups and sentimentality; when I see people rejecting fantasy, these are often big strikes against it.

By "traditional fantasy" I did mean secondary worlds, and could have been clearer on that--but I don't think it has to have all those other elements. In all honesty there probably is no "perfect book" to recommend to literary-type non fantasy readers, so you just have to go based on what they're interested in.

The Scar does have a lot going for it in that regard--with literary types I'd be worried about them feeling like he'd thrown in everything and the kitchen sink, which he basically did ("what, and there's vampires too?!"). That and there being nothing special about the prose. (Sidenote: did a bunch of modern fantasy authors get together at a convention somewhere and enter into a contest to see who could use the word "fuck" most in their works? Possibly with extra points for other 4-letter words? Mostly the cursing in The Scar worked well, but there were moments where it was completely out of place. And then there's Lynch where most of the cursing is completely out of place. And now I'm reading Abraham and he's got a bit of it too. It makes me wonder about the age of the authors I'm reading. But anyway.)

Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell.

Yeah, that's a good one. Not for everybody but probably safe for the literary types?

Well, you gotta start somewhere, and I don't want to push people away from fantasy by recommending long fantasy epics, however good they might be :) I like to recommend the books I listed not because they lean towards 'serious' literature or because they are set in the real world, but because they are all excellently written, they have very strong plot and great writing style. I prefer to start slow, with books I mentioned before, and if people like them well enough, I'll recommend similar ones ... and sooner or later they'll be reading 'true' fantasy. Or not, but at least they'll have broadened their literary horizons. :)

I only do this with people who think fantasy is silly, made for children, or 'not real literature', though. If people don't have anything against fantasy but simply never stumbled across it, I recommend GRRM and most of them get hooked. :)

Makes sense. I just got home for work today to discover my English-major roommate with a copy of A Game of Thrones (not my copy), and am interested to see how that goes.

[Valkyrja]

He might not be for everyone, but I've eased a few folks into the genre via Neil Gaiman.....

[Shryke]

Sidenote: did a bunch of modern fantasy authors get together at a convention somewhere and enter into a contest to see who could use the word "fuck" most in their works? Possibly with extra points for other 4-letter words? Mostly the cursing in The Scar worked well, but there were moments where it was completely out of place. And then there's Lynch where most of the cursing is completely out of place. And now I'm reading Abraham and he's got a bit of it too. It makes me wonder about the age of the authors I'm reading. But anyway.

What's wrong with swearing? Why the implication that it's juvenile?

People swear all the fucking time.

[Grack21]

What's wrong with swearing? Why the implication that it's juvenile?

People swear all the fucking time.

Believe it or not, I can actually go whole days at a time without hearing someone say fuck.

[Contrarius]

And then there's Lynch where most of the cursing is completely out of place.

I agree with you about Lynch. I don't mind the swearing in Abercrombie at all, but often in Lynch it's just jarring. It doesn't fit with the dialogue.

[MattD]

Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell

Yeah, that's a good one. Not for everybody but probably safe for the literary types?

...and then you're back with the "real world" literary fantasies; indeed, Jonathan Strange is often cross-shelved in general fiction. In which case the books Trin mentioned would be back in play, as well as John Crowley's Little, Big and Aegypt quartet, M. John Harrison's The Course of the Heart, Valente's Deathless, some of Jonathan Carroll's books, Kelly Link's short story collections, etc.

[peterbound]

Believe it or not, I can actually go whole days at a time without hearing someone say fuck.

And a fucking fairy loses it's goddamn wings every time that happens.

[Liadin]

...and then you're back with the "real world" literary fantasies; indeed, Jonathan Strange is often cross-shelved in general fiction.

Yep.

What's wrong with swearing? Why the implication that it's juvenile?

People swear all the fucking time.

Yes, people swear. But there's swearing because it's a natural part of your vocabulary and it fits the situation and the context and tone of what you're saying, and then there's swearing because you think it makes you look cool. The former is what adults who swear do; the latter is what kids do. When an author uses profanity that feels out-of-place, like it wouldn't come out of that character's mouth in that situation or the author is just trying to look all cool and edgy, then it feels juvenile. Lynch's swearing felt that way pretty consistently to me, Abraham's (thus far; 250 pages into The Dragon's Path) feels like that often and Mieville's did on occasion. By comparison, GRRM's use of profanity virtually never did.

(Actually, with Mieville it was more specific. It made perfect sense in the context of the dialogue. But then there were these weird moments where it was used in the narration, which was just jarring, because it's third-person narration with some distance. That felt adolescent, like he thought more profanity always makes a book better or more edgy or something.)

[peterbound]

Yep.

Yes, people swear. But there's swearing because it's a natural part of your vocabulary and it fits the situation and the context and tone of what you're saying, and then there's swearing because you think it makes you look cool. The former is what adults who swear do; the latter is what kids do. When an author uses profanity that feels out-of-place, like it wouldn't come out of that character's mouth in that situation or the author is just trying to look all cool and edgy, then it feels juvenile. Lynch's swearing felt that way pretty consistently to me, Abraham's (thus far; 250 pages into The Dragon's Path) feels like that often and Mieville's did on occasion. By comparison, GRRM's use of profanity virtually never did.

(Actually, with Mieville it was more specific. It made perfect sense in the context of the dialogue. But then there were these weird moments where it was used in the narration, which was just jarring, because it's third-person narration with some distance. That felt adolescent, like he thought more profanity always makes a book better or more edgy or something.)

Agreed. We actually had this convo at one of the con's i went to up in denver. Seemed to be the consensus that as long as it was consistent it was good to go.

As for the recommendations on Mieville, you might want to feel out their views on homosexuality as well. Shit can be off putting to some folks. If you are hanging out and sharing books with individuals that can't handle an occasional fuck bomb, they might not be fans of the homosexual shit going down. Just saying.

[Procrastimancer]

Believe it or not, I can actually go whole days at a time without hearing someone say fuck.

I have never actually gone a day without hearing someone say fuck. I suppose I might if I barricaded myself in my apartment and refused to let my fiancee enter.

Yes, people swear. But there's swearing because it's a natural part of your vocabulary and it fits the situation and the context and tone of what you're saying, and then there's swearing because you think it makes you look cool.

I don't think it separates so evenly. I worked retail, I met plenty of the both of those, but there is a huge segment of adults who use curse words as filler. Just about every other word is a curse word. The age range is usually mid-30s all the way up...

[Datepalm]

(Actually, with Mieville it was more specific. It made perfect sense in the context of the dialogue. But then there were these weird moments where it was used in the narration, which was just jarring, because it's third-person narration with some distance. That felt adolescent, like he thought more profanity always makes a book better or more edgy or something.)

Jesse Bullingtons Enterprise of Death had this a bit, a swearing narrator, but it was clear from the outset it was a narration with a bit of personality and the swearing was mostly the ocassional "for fucks sake," and overall I thought it was a nice touch, and worked with the book. I think theres room for even slightly gratuitous swearing now and then, in the sense that theres a lot of books that could be written in blander, more workmanlike prose and with a smaller vocabulary, but aren't, which is typically good thing.

[Nukelavee]

Actually, I think I'd reccommend DeLint or the Borderlands series for "urban" fantasy, plus, as a bonus, Borderlands gives a great excuse to introduce John M Ford using the the Last Hot Time.