Most Powerful Lesser Houses

[jlk7e]

One thing that's been interesting me a bit lately is who the most powerful lesser houses are - that is to say, the most powerful houses that aren't "great houses" in charge of a whole reason and owing allegiance to the crown. The most powerful bannermen. I think it makes most sense to look at these at the beginning of the story, as the war obviously shakes things up.

The two absolute most powerful houses seem to be the

1) Hightowers (who supposedly could put together more men on their own than any other house, presumably including even the Tyrells' own direct individual resources). The Hightowers also seem to be one of the oldest and most prestigious houses, having ruled Oldtown from time immemorial.

2) Redwynes of the Arbor - they seem to have direct control over the largest fleet in Westeros, with the possible exceptions of the royal fleet and maybe the Ironborn (the Lannister fleet, if there is much of one at this point, seems definitely smaller), and they also seem capable of putting a decent number of land forces in the field.

Otherwise, what do people think? We get a good sense that the Royces of Runestone are the most powerful house in the Vale, and that the Freys are the most powerful house in the Riverlands. Other thoughts?

[Noroldis]

I think the Yronwoods are the second most powerful house in Dorne.

As for the North... The Boltons seems able to muster a lot of men, but I think I'll go with the Manderlys, for the simple reason that they're in charge of the only noteworthy harbor in the North, which should make them the richest house in the North after the Starks.

[jlk7e]

We get so much detail on the north that it's almost like we have less information. I'd agree on the Boltons and Manderlys as the most powerful in the north. But there's so many others. The Karstarks come to mind as particularly important.

[Hirgon]

House Frey before Hightower. Control of the Twins is a big deal, and gives House Frey a huge bargaining chip even over House Tully. That coupled with House Frey's number of bannermen (said to be large; we have yet to see their army, though) easily makes them more powerful. Redwyne might be more powerful than Hightower, too with their fleets, income from wine sales, medium-sized army.

There may be a house in Dorne more powerful than any of the above. I recall Yronwoods being most powerful there, like Noroldis said.

[Galen M]

House Florent was pretty powerful, along with House Tarly

[Xenophon]

I think House Yronwood is sort of the Dornish equivalent of the Boltons. Former kings and 2nd most powerful house in the kingdom.

[jlk7e]

Hightower is, per the appendix to AFfC, "powerful and immensely wealthy." Randyll Tarly told his son that they were "as wealthy as the Lannisters, and could command thrice as many swords as any of Highgarden's other bannermen."

Given that the Reach is the most populous and wealthy region of Westeros, and that Highgarden is by a considerable margin the most powerful lesser house in the Reach, and also next to Lannister the wealthiest house - great or lesser. I don't see how you can put Frey ahead of them.

[jlk7e]

The reach seems to have a lot of powerful houses - Hightower, Redwyne, Tarly, Florent, maybe Rowan, too.

[Millardkillmoore]

Mustn't forget the Royces. They seem to be second only to Arryn in the Vale.

[Garlan the Gallant]

Bolton, Frey, Manderly, Royce, Harlaw, Yronwood, Hightower, Mallister, and Redwyne. I would assume that the order goes something like this: 1) Hightower, 2) Redwyne, 3) Royce, 4) Manderly, 5) Bolton, 6) Frey, 7) Yronwood, 8) Mallister, 9) Harlaw.

I am not sure whether to include Tarly and Blackwood or not. I think they might just be led by two very strong and smart individuals (Randyl and Tytos).

Also, I would probably not include Reed as they probably don't even have an army.

Not sure about House Swyft either; they do have the Hand of the King, but I am not sure if he will just be a lackey for Kevan.

Also, both Tully and Baratheon are probably weaker than any of these houses. The only force left in Tully is the Blackfish and the only force left with the Baratheons is Stannis. Further, Stark is non-existent and Arryn, itself, will be replaced by Hardyng when Robert dies and Sansa and Harold marry (though, they might try to claim the name stark which would resurface that house). It could be argued that since, as of this moment, Baratheon, Tully, Stark, and Arryn are all very weak that they are no longer major houses. The only thing that these houses still have are their names.

Tyrell and Lannister are fighting for the remains and Greyjoy and Martell seem to be putting themselves behind Targaryen. Additionally, I would assume that the Faith is gathering a following that will rival many of the above houses.

My point is, that the differences between a strong minor house and a major house, (excluding lannister and tyrell) at this point, is not large at all.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

House Frey before Hightower.

Demonstrably false.

We're told how many men the Freys command: 4,000.

We're also told how many men House Florent can raise: 2,000.

Since the Hightowers can raise thrice as many (or more) than any other Tyrell bannermen, they can muster 6,000 at the barest minimum. They're also said to be as rich as the Lannisters. The Freys aren't even playing in the same league as the Hightowers.

[Corvinus85]

I once took the time to look at every house in the wiki, and I made lists with what I think are the most powerful houses sworn to a great house.

Here are the top 3 (IMO) for each great house (at the beginning of AGOT):

Arryn: 1) Royce of Runestone 2) Grafton of Gulltown 3) Belmore of Strongsong

Baratheon: 1) Caron of Nightsong 2) Penrose of Parchments 3) Dondarrion of Blackhaven

Greyjoy: 1) Harlaw of Harlaw 2) Goodbrother of Hammerhorn 3) Blacktyde of Blacktyde

Lannister: 1) Lefford of the Golden Tooth 2) Crakehall of Crakehall 3) Marbrand of Ashemark

Martell: 1) Yronwood of Yronwood 2) Dayne of Starfall 3) Fowler of Skyreach

Stark: 1) Manderly of White Harbor 2) Bolton of the Dreadfort 3) Karstark of Karhold

Tully: 1) Frey of the Twins 2) Mallister of Seagard 3) Vance of Wayfarer's Rest

Tyrell: 1) Hightower of Oldtown 2) Redwyne of the Arbor 3) Rowan of Goldengrove

King's Landing and Dragonstone: 1) Rykker of Duskendale 2) Velaryon of Driftmark 3) Buckwell of the Antlers

Putting all this together my top 10 are:

1) Hightower

2) Redwyne

3) Frey

4) Manderly

5) Lefford

6) Royce

7) Rowan

8) Mallister

9) Yronwood

10) Rykker

[Hirgon]

Demonstrably false.

Then demonstrate it already. I may have listened to you if not for this.

What you just did was take Sam's account of his father's words and equate it with the material given in the appendix. It would not be all that difficult to demonstrate that characters in aSoIaF often lie or are often mistaken, and to further demonstrate that second-hand accounts are next to worthless.

Also, the strategic placement of House Frey - smack dab in the middle of the map, at its narrowest section, in a castle that bridges a river that splits the kingdom east to west and north to west for miles, effectively splitting a couple pairs of the biggest rival Houses in the kingdom - puts them in a league of their own. Highgarden, meanwhile, is in a corner of the kingdom protecting nothing but its own assets, and so far away from anything that the moment Lord Hightower's armies march, his lands are at risk of being smacked in the pants and looted by Tyrell's always-present and always-vengeful rival, Dorne. That really did almost happened, too. Demonstrate that away.

Oh, I almost forgot. In dealings between Tyrell and Hightower, Tyrell makes the calls. In dealings between Frey and Tully, Frey and Stark, and Frey and Lannister, Frey makes the calls nearly every time.

[Evamitchelle]

In terms of wealth at least, the Hightowers are obviously first among the lesser houses, but since they favor trade and learning over battle, I'm not sure how many men they could raise for themselves. If the Hightowers are lacking in any department, I feel it would be the military one.

[Corvinus85]

Then demonstrate it already. I may have listened to you if not for this.

What you just did was take Sam's account of his father's words and equate it with the material given in the appendix. It would not be all that difficult to demonstrate that characters in aSoIaF often lie or are often mistaken, and to further demonstrate that second-hand accounts are next to worthless.

Also, the strategic placement of House Frey - smack dab in the middle of the map, at its narrowest section, in a castle that bridges a river that splits the kingdom east to west and north to west for miles, effectively splitting a couple pairs of the biggest rival Houses in the kingdom - puts them in a league of their own. Highgarden, meanwhile, is in a corner of the kingdom protecting nothing but its own assets, and so far away from anything that the moment Lord Hightower's armies march, his lands are at risk of being smacked in the pants and looted by Tyrell's always-present and always-vengeful rival, Dorne. That really did almost happened, too. Demonstrate that away.

Oh, I almost forgot. In dealings between Tyrell and Hightower, Tyrell makes the calls. In dealings between Frey and Tully, Frey and Stark, and Frey and Lannister, Frey makes the calls nearly every time.

You have a point with your last words, but all that you said about the military power of the Freys vs the Hightowers is a bit flawed.

First, you say that if the Hightowers march their strength somewhere far away, then they are exposed to attacks from Dorne. The same can be said of the Freys who are right smack in the middle. They march west of the river, somebody can attack them from the east. They march east, somebody can attack from the west.

Now in terms of wealth, the Hightowers are clearly the richer. Yes, there is money to be made from making people pay a toll when wanting to cross, but there is way more money to be made from charging taxes on all the trade that is going on in Oldtown.

In terms of how many troops the two houses can muster, I am pretty sure Hightower still wins, even if Sam's estimate may be wrong. You can check on the wiki to see how many houses are sworn to the Hightowers vs. how many are sworn to the Freys + the population of Oldtown and its surrounding area is greater than the Twins and its surrounding area.

Also, for Dorne to actually threaten Oldtown, you also need the Tarlys and other houses which guard the mountains to have their strength gone + the Redwyne fleet be gone as well.

q.e.d.

[jlk7e]

Garlan - the Harlaws do seem to be the most powerful bannermen of the Greyjoys, but I'm not sure how much that means. House Redwyne has at least as powerful a fleet on its own as all of the Iron Islands. I don't think any Greyjoy vassal would be in the top 10.

Corvinus - your list is interesting. A few questions about the individual regions, and then about the overall list:

Vale - why Grafton and Belmore rather than Corbray, Hunter, or Waynwood?

Stormlands - what about Estermont? I'd probably put them in there somewhere (although not sure which of the others I'd remove - Caron definitely belongs in first)

Westerlands - looks good, although I'd add that Reyne and Tarbeck were probably on the list before Tywin dealt with them

Riverlands - Frey is definitely first, and Mallister seems plausible. But why Vance of Wayfarer's Rest? I'd have put Blackwood or Bracken ahead of them. Piper seems pretty equivalent to Vance

Reach - Hmm...not sure about Rowan. Tarly or Florent seem just as plausible.

Crownlands - Why Buckwell? I don't even remember hearing anything about them at any point in the books. Of the mainland houses, Rosby and Stokeworth both seem more prominent, if lame. I'm not sure about the island houses. Celtigar seems reasonably important.

In terms of the overall order, I think I'd take off Lefford and Rykker. I think Tywin has so centralized the Westerlands that none of the lesser houses has much independent power anymore, and I don't think any of the Crownlands lords is very powerful. Also, below the top three the order seems a bit random. I'd probably put Royce higher, at least.

We actually get a very full picture of the various houses of the north because they're mentioned on several occasions.

There's an interesting bit in one of the Jon chapters in ASOS where the Night's Watch are sending ravens everywhere asking for help, and it lists houses of the north, which give a sense of the houses that are directly sworn to Winterfell:

1) Umber of the Last Hearth

2) Bolton of the Dreadfort

3) Cerwyn of Cerwyn Castle

4) Tallhart of Torrhen's Square

5) Karstark of Karhold

6) Glover of Deepwood Motte

7) Mormont of Bear Island

8) Locke of Oldcastle

9) Flint of Widow's Watch

10) Manderly of White Harbor

11) Dustin of Barrowton

12) Ryswell of the Rills

Plus the mountain clans. The Reeds go unmentioned, notably.

We were given a fairly similar, but shorter, list when Robb summoned his bannermen to march to war in the first place. We see the Karstarks arrive, and then learn that Bran has also seen the Glovers, Mormonts, Boltons, Hornwoods (obviously, the Hornwoods have disappeared between this point and when the Night's Watch is sending out ravens in ASOS), Cerwyns, Tallharts, Umbers. He also notes the following groups to join up on the road: Manderly and Flint, plus "barrow knights" (Dustins, presumably) and "Crannogmen" (Reeds). One would guess that Lockes and Ryswells will also join up further south, given the locations of the Rills and Oldcastle.

So there seem pretty clearly to be, at the beginning of AGOT, 14 houses sworn to Winterfell (the 12 listed above, plus Hornwood and Reed), plus various mountain clans (at least 5) and the clans on Skagos. Any other houses in the north are presumably sworn to one of those 14 or directly to Winterfell.

We don't get nearly as clear a picture of any other region, I don't think. The Riverlands are probably closest - we know that among the key houses are Frey, Blackwood, Bracken, Piper, the two Vance branches, Mallister, Darry, Whent. But there's probably some others - Mooton, probably, but I'm not sure beyond that.

Our sense of the other lands is a lot less clear-cut, I think. One would guess, though, that on the whole there's probably about, oh, 140 houses that are at the level of lords who are direct bannermen of the lord paramount. We also know that below them are other noble houses that are sworn to those houses, and then probably below that are knightly houses. The Eldest Brother, iirc, tells Brienne that he was from a knightly family that served a lord that served a lord that served a lord that sided with the Targaryens. If we assume that the last lord is Mace Tyrell and the second to middle lord one of his bannermen, then we have another layer of lords before we get to knightly houses.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Then demonstrate it already. I may have listened to you if not for this.

I did. The Hightowers command far more men (Stannis suggests that the Florent 2,000 is unimpressive, but even tripling them puts the Hightowers well ahead of the Freys), are far wealthier, and they happen to rule one of the top two port cities of the realm. Done and done.

What you just did was take Sam's account of his father's words and equate it with the material given in the appendix. It would not be all that difficult to demonstrate that characters in aSoIaF often lie or are often mistaken, and to further demonstrate that second-hand accounts are next to worthless.

Except that the one single area that we can expect unsurpassed expertise from Randyll Tarly is military strength. He doesn't care for much else, and is Mace Tyrell's go-to man for military affairs, who he delegates significant authority to.

Also, the strategic placement of House Frey - smack dab in the middle of the map, at its narrowest section, in a castle that bridges a river that splits the kingdom east to west and north to west for miles, effectively splitting a couple pairs of the biggest rival Houses in the kingdom - puts them in a league of their own.

Oooh, gee! No one can get from the KR to critical Hag's Mire without leave of the Freys! Poor Chett can't visit home without Walder's say-so! Westeros can be driven to it's very knees by the Freys' stranglehold!

Aside from the very distinct (dare we say, plot-driven) circumstances that required a Northern army to liase with Riverrun without crossing the Ruby Ford, what significant traffic goes through the Twins? It's not on a major road, it's on the northern periphery of mainstream Westeros, practically in a swamp that most people never bother going past. Yeah, league of their own...maybe some sort of Saskatchewan single-A league.

Highgarden, meanwhile, is in a corner of the kingdom protecting nothing but its own assets, and so far away from anything that the moment Lord Hightower's armies march, his lands are at risk of being smacked in the pants and looted by Tyrell's always-present and always-vengeful rival, Dorne. That really did almost happened, too. Demonstrate that away.

Funny how you're so willing to dismiss the military opinions of the customary Reach Van commander, but take the blustering of a short-tempered Sand Snake (the least credible one, whose opinions all the rest dismiss) as gospel. Dorne threaten Oldtown? Really? Maybe you missed the parts where the Dornish fight best at home and how they've been complicit in wanton exaggeration of their true numbers.

Oh, I almost forgot. In dealings between Tyrell and Hightower, Tyrell makes the calls. In dealings between Frey and Tully, Frey and Stark, and Frey and Lannister, Frey makes the calls nearly every time.

And this says anthing whatsoever about comparative Hightower/Frey strength? Hightowers are famously cautious (they have a lot at stake) and the Freys are notoriously wheedling. Are you assuming that Tullys are comparable to Tyrells in strength? Because the Tyrells have easily double their men, and we have no indication that the Freys have so commanding a piece of their significantly smaller pie.

Bottom line: Oldtown is head and shoulders above the Twins in importance, Hightowers could crush the Freys one on one, they have way more money, they've been accumulating power and wealth for several thousand years instead of a mere couple hundred. Even the Targaryens cultivated Hightower marriages, nobody seems to marry a Frey unless they're forced to.

[jlk7e]

What you just did was take Sam's account of his father's words and equate it with the material given in the appendix.

What material from the appendix? All I see is that it says that the Freys are wealthy and powerful and have not always been loyal to the Tullys. It says that the Hightowers are "powerful and immensely wealthy" but tend to keep to themselves. Where in the appendix does it imply that they are weaker than the Freys? Why do you want to dismiss remarks on military strength given by one of the most accomplished military leaders in Westeros? Note that the person Sam mentions this to doesn't disagree, but says that Tarly's claim is actually an understatement - that, in a pinch, the Hightowers could actually muster even more men than that.

I do think that Other-in-Law is exaggerating in the other direction. The Twins, among other things, command the road to Seagard, which seems to be a reasonably important port. They also command a more direct route from Riverrun and the Westerlands to the North. But certainly this doesn't compare to running the second largest city on the continent.

The Freys are more important to the story because Walder Frey is a grasping climber, while his counterpart Leyton Hightower is satisfied to sit at the top of his tower and study stuff. But that says nothing about the raw power either man has at his command.

And the Dorne thing is just pure sophistry. There is no reason to think that the Dornish could really sack Oldtown. Doran certainly doesn't seem impressed with the proposal.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

The Twins, among other things, command the road to Seagard, which seems to be a reasonably important port.

Which road to Seagard? The road from the Twins? Sure. The road to Seagard from Riverrun? From Casterly Rock? Not so much. The Twins can hardly blockade Seagard by closing their own gates.

[jlk7e]

Other-in-Law - the Road to Seagard from the Kingsroad, for one.