Most Powerful Lesser Houses

[Lee-Sensei]

@thelittledragonthatcould

When Gulltown rose against him, King Gerold put

down the protests brutally, and soon the gutters of the town

ran red with the blood of the First Men . . . and women and

children as well. The dead were thrown in the bay to feed the

crabs. In the years that followed, the rule of House Grafton

remained uncontested, for (surprisingly) Ser Gerold proved

a sage and clever ruler, and the town prospered greatly

under him and his successors, growing to be the first and

only city of the Vale.

Do you?

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

The Velaryons

[Lee-Sensei]

The world books said that Graftons ruled the city "uncontested" when talking about early stages of the Andal invasion, so that information is outdated by a few thousands of years. The author says they share the city with Shetts. To what degree, we don't know.

As to the second part, one example would be house Shett before andals. They had lost everything to Royces except the city, that's why they invited Graftons.

Do you have any evidence that they lost Gulltown?

No they didn't. They were under siege by the Royces, so they invited a Grafton knight to help them fight him. They hadn't lost all of their lands. They were at war.

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

@thelittledragonthatcould

When Gulltown rose against him, King Gerold put

down the protests brutally, and soon the gutters of the town

ran red with the blood of the First Men . . . and women and

children as well. The dead were thrown in the bay to feed the

crabs. In the years that followed, the rule of House Grafton

remained uncontested, for (surprisingly) Ser Gerold proved

a sage and clever ruler, and the town prospered greatly

under him and his successors, growing to be the first and

only city of the Vale.

Do you?

Do you have any evidence that they lost Gulltown?

No they didn't. They were under siege by the Royces, so they invited a Grafton knight to help them fight him. They hadn't lost all of their lands. They were at war.

What do you mean, do I have any evidence that Graftons lost Gulltown? Graftons didn't lose Gulltown, they lost "uncontested rule" of Gulltown. GRRM says so. The quote you are referring to talks of early stages of the andal invasion. Graftons ruled Gulltown uncontested for a few generations, until Shetts contested them and helped Royces take the city. You seem to think that the "the rule of House Grafton remained uncontested" quote means "till this day," when clearly it was not so. It was uncontested for just a few generations early in the invasion. The current situation is that there are two houses in the city who share it, according to GRRM.

How it is shared exactly, we don't know.

As to Shetts-Royces, well, they had lost everything, except Gulltown. I don't know if they were under siege at that point or not. Gulltown is described as seemingly secure, it's the lands outside that Shetts couldn't hold. But yes, it was a very long conflict between two families that lasted for many many generations, and fortunes changed sides many times, sometimes Royces controlled certain lands, other times Shetts did. In general, Westeros is based on medieval Europe, and there were a number of tiny semi-independent feudal territories with not much more than a city. Some of them survived to this day, like Monaco.

Just to be clear, I don't know how Gulltown rule is divided exactly, or if Gulltown families rule any / much land outside the city. I think it's conjecture to claim one way or the other, or especially discuss numbers of current Grafton military power.

[Lee-Sensei]

What do you mean, do I have any evidence that Graftons lost Gulltown? Graftons didn't lose Gulltown, they lost "uncontested rule" of Gulltown. GRRM says so. The quote you are referring to talks of early stages of the andal invasion. Graftons ruled Gulltown uncontested for a few generations, until Shetts contested them and helped Royces take the city. You seem to think that the "the rule of House Grafton remained uncontested" quote means "till this day," when clearly it was not so. It was uncontested for just a few generations early in the invasion. The current situation is that there are two houses in the city who share it, according to GRRM.

How it is shared exactly, we don't know.

As to Shetts-Royces, well, they had lost everything, except Gulltown. I don't know if they were under siege at that point or not. Gulltown is described as seemingly secure, it's the lands outside that Shetts couldn't hold. IBut yes, it was a very long conflict between two families that lasted for many many generations, and fortunes changed sides many times, sometimes Royces controlled certain lands, other times Shetts did. In general, Westeros is based on medieval Europe, and there were a number of tiny semi-independent feudal territories with not much more than a city. Some of them survived to this day, like Monaco.

Just to be clear, I don't know how Gulltown rule is divided exactly, or if Gulltown families rule any / much land outside the city. I think it's conjecture to claim one way or the other, or especially make up numbers of Grafton military power.

1) Except they didn't lose "uncontested rule" of Gulltown from what we've seen. The Shetts were there before the Graftons, and they stayed after the Graftons took over.

2) Again. No they didn't. The war wasn't over. It's not the same thing.

[Red Tiger]

By the seven!! You guys take debates to another level.

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

1) Except they didn't lose "uncontested rule" of Gulltown from what we've seen. The Shetts were there before the Graftons, and they stayed after the Graftons took over.

2) Again. No they didn't. The war wasn't over. It's not the same thing.

Well, read the world book again, the same page you are quoting. Graftons dispossessed Shetts, locked up the rightful Shett heir in a room, took the crown, made babies with Shett daughter and eventually probably killed the legitimate Shett heir. It wasn't shared rule at that point, Graftons basically pulled a Bronn, or maybe Orys Baratheon would be a better comparison. And then their rule "remained uncontested," until it was contested a couple generations later by Shetts and Robar Royce. Then there was lots of history after that, most of which we don't know. And now today we have a whole different situation, Shetts are vassals of Royces, which wasn't the case before Robar Royce, and Shetts and Graftons share the rule, according to GRRM. It's a different political situation now. Your quote is about a time very very long ago, and things have changed.

We don't know how the city is shared, we don't know how many lands these families control outside of the city, if any. Talking about Graftons as second or third strongest house in the Vale is just such a conjecture. It could be true or it could be completely wrong, and there's no way to know.

[Lee-Sensei]

Well, read the world book again, the same page you are quoting. Graftons dispossessed Shetts, locked up the rightful Shett heir in a room, took the crown, made babies with Shett daughter and eventually probably killed the legitimate Shett heir. It wasn't shared rule at that point, Graftons basically pulled a Bronn, or maybe Orys Baratheon would be a better comparison. And then their rule "remained uncontested," until it was contested a couple generations later by Shetts and Robar Royce. Then there was lots of history after that, most of which we don't know. And now today we have a whole different situation, Shetts are vassals of Royces, which wasn't the case before Robar Royce, and Shetts and Graftons share the rule, according to GRRM. It's a different political situation now. Your quote is about a time very very long ago, and things have changed.

We don't know how the city is shared, we don't know how many lands these families control outside of the city, if any. Talking about Graftons as second or third strongest house in the Vale is just such a conjecture. It could be true or it could be completely wrong, and there's no way to know.

1) What other Durrandons existed then? Where are the Durrandons now? The Shetts are still around and ruling their tower. Just severely weakened. The Durrandons are nowhere to be seen.

2) There are enough reasons to believe that the Graftons are among the strongest Houses in the Vale. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1) What other Durrandons existed then? Where are the Durrandons now? The Shetts are still around and ruling their tower. Just severely weakened. The Durrandons are nowhere to be seen.

The author says they share the city, not just a Tower, and they pay tribute to the Royces.

2) There are enough reasons to believe that the Graftons are among the strongest Houses in the Vale. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Such as what?

Outisde of sharing a city, what are these other reasons to believe that they are one of the strongest in the Vale.

[Lee-Sensei]

The author says they share the city, not just a Tower, and they pay tribute to the Royces.

Such as what?

Outisde of sharing a city, what are these other reasons to believe that they are one of the strongest in the Vale.

Whatever. Like I said to PPfA, I'm done. Let's just agree to disagree.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

1) Again. I'm saying third strongest. We're comparing them to the Waynwoods and the Redforts here. Not the Arryns and the Graftons.

2) What Arryn cousin?

3) To get rid of LF. They weren't trying to kill the kid.

4) Prove it. Give evidence that the Corbrays and others took up arms against Jon, because Lyn is singled out.

5) Umm... no it isn't. The feudal contract was broken when Aerys started killing Valemen without just cause.

6) Nope. I've seen no proof of that. Money is power. That's a big part of why the Lannisters and Tyrells are so far ahead of everyone. That's why the Hightowers, Redwynes and Manderlys are so strong.

1. I don't think they are stronger then those other two house since they likely have little lands. They'd have to have lands to get to 1000, but given the position of natural borders and that we know they are powerful, I don't think they'd have many lands.

2. Hubert Arryn, married to a Royce, and with six Royce children. It was ambition, not loyalty.

3. Yeah it's a great idea to starve out a castle with a physically ill kid so you can save him. Perhaps it's just ambition to have Harrold as lord.

4. Prove that they didn't. Lyn was their. Why would a youngest son disobey his father, and how would he get away from him? There were other Targaryen loyalists to. We know little and less about RR, and the Worldbook didn't really claify.

5. Gah, feudalism!

6. The Lannisters have large lands (their own,a Reyne and Tarbeck lands), a city, mines and the ability to hire sell swords. Money is not the only factor of their power. Same with Tyrells. I'm not really sure what I think aboutm Manderly. His power is poor writing. A believable but obvious retcon

[Lee-Sensei]

1. I don't think they are stronger then those other two house since they likely have little lands. They'd have to have lands to get to 1000, but given the position of natural borders and that we know they are powerful, I don't think they'd have many lands.

2. Hubert Arryn, married to a Royce, and with six Royce children. It was ambition, not loyalty.

3. Yeah it's a great idea to starve out a castle with a physically ill kid so you can save him. Perhaps it's just ambition to have Harrold as lord.

4. Prove that they didn't. Lyn was their. Why would a youngest son disobey his father, and how would he get away from him? There were other Targaryen loyalists to. We know little and less about RR, and the Worldbook didn't really claify.

5. Gah, feudalism!

6. The Lannisters have large lands (their own,a Reyne and Tarbeck lands), a city, mines and the ability to hire sell swords. Money is not the only factor of their power. Same with Tyrells. I'm not really sure what I think aboutm Manderly. His power is poor writing. A believable but obvious retcon

You're not reading. I said I'm done.

[GallowsKnight]

Royal Fleet is 200 ships iirc. I agree 4000 men, but the fleet is manned by men from all over the Reach.

I think of the fleet 4000 will be his own men (all he can raise) who probably get bigger ships.

Other houses fill up the other 15k ships space.

Otherwise, agreed. Manderly has more soldiers though IMO.

I'm glad we're agreeing but I think we've got two different things in mind.

I'm saying Redwyne has maybe 20000 (military) sailors. As well as at least four thousand men at arms. The sailors come from many places but are paid by Redwyne and owe him direct loyalty.

A sailor might be from Oldtown originally but doesn't have any duty to Lord Hightower. Sailors work by employment not feudal contract, as they're required all the time but do not needs arms or arm or.

The four thousand men at arms are spread across his ships. As officers and marines. A big ship like his flagship might have 50-80 but a smaller scout ship maybe only 4-5.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

You're not reading. I said I'm done.

I know, but in case others were still wondering, I thought it was worth posting. Thanks for the discussion.

In conclusion form me, Grafton would obviously have lands outside the city, since all the others do. Sheet would also have lands, but those are also Royce lands. Thus why Grrafton can field 1000 men or more, they don't have the power to be top 3.

I'm glad we're agreeing but I think we've got two different things in mind.

I'm saying Redwyne has maybe 20000 (military) sailors. As well as at least four thousand men at arms. The sailors come from many places but are paid by Redwyne and owe him direct loyalty.

A sailor might be from Oldtown originally but doesn't have any duty to Lord Hightower. Sailors work by employment not feudal contract, as they're required all the time but do not needs arms or arm or.

The four thousand men at arms are spread across his ships. As officers and marines. A big ship like his flagship might have 50-80 but a smaller scout ship maybe only 4-5.

I can go along with this. The fleet can obviously hold more then 4000 men, so I'd say that both sailors and marines come from all over the Reach. Redwyne would probably have his men as officers though. Sailors aren't counted in army my numbers though, just like washerwoman, armourers, tent makers, camp followers etc. I'm sure there is crossover between some soldiers who also sail but that'd be negligible.

[Nihlus]

I'm glad we're agreeing but I think we've got two different things in mind.

I'm saying Redwyne has maybe 20000 (military) sailors. As well as at least four thousand men at arms. The sailors come from many places but are paid by Redwyne and owe him direct loyalty.

A sailor might be from Oldtown originally but doesn't have any duty to Lord Hightower. Sailors work by employment not feudal contract, as they're required all the time but do not needs arms or arm or.

The four thousand men at arms are spread across his ships. As officers and marines. A big ship like his flagship might have 50-80 but a smaller scout ship maybe only 4-5.

Doesn't Redwyne operate a fleet of 200 war galleys dipping 100 oars or more? That'd put their available oarsmen, sailors, and officers well beyond 20,000. More like 25,000. How many does the Royal Fleet have? Of those, how many are 100-oar+ war galleys? The entire Royal Fleet was engaged at Blackwater, augmented by other Crownlands houses, militia ships, and mercenary ships, and that total was just over 200.

Anyway, the three most powerful lesser houses are probably Hightower, Redwyne, and Manderly. Maybe Royce, too. Random question: is it ever outright stated that the Freys are the most powerful Tully bannermen?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Anyway, the three most powerful lesser houses are probably Hightower, Redwyne, and Manderly. Maybe Royce, too. Random question: is it ever outright stated that the Freys are the most powerful Tully bannermen?

Yes, from Cat: "House Frey might have abandoned the King in the North, but the Lord of the Crossing remained the most powerful of Riverrun's bannermen, and Lothar was here in his stead."

Is it ever outright mentioned that the Manderlys are the Starks most powerful bannerman?

[GallowsKnight]

Doesn't Redwyne operate a fleet of 200 war galleys dipping 100 oars or more? That'd put their available oarsmen, sailors, and officers well beyond 20,000. More like 25,000. How many does the Royal Fleet have? Of those, how many are 100-oar+ war galleys? The entire Royal Fleet was engaged at Blackwater, augmented by other Crownlands houses, militia ships, and mercenary ships, and that total was just over 200.

If you see I actually suggest the lowest estimate as 24k. 20k sailors 4k combatants. So close to the 25k you suggest.

I would not be surprised however if he had twice as many as that.

As mentioned just a bit before in the thread the royal fleet probably has about ~150 ships normally. As Stannis had captured ships and sellsails augmenting his numbers. But Joffrey has 50 ships as well.

The royal does however seem to have a number of bigger ships. Dipping 200-400 oars. Not sure how many. Possibly a dozen.

[Nihlus]

Yes, from Cat: "House Frey might have abandoned the King in the North, but the Lord of the Crossing remained the most powerful of Riverrun's bannermen, and Lothar was here in his stead."

Is it ever outright mentioned that the Manderlys are the Starks most powerful bannerman?

It's stated that they are the wealthiest of the Stark bannermen, they control the only major city in the North, and they still have more troops than Bolton even after losing ~2,000 in the war. So yes, that seems to be the case.

If you see I actually suggest the lowest estimate as 24k. 20k sailors 4k combatants. So close to the 25k you suggest.

I would not be surprised however if he had twice as many as that.

As mentioned just a bit before in the thread the royal fleet probably has about ~150 ships normally. As Stannis had captured ships and sellsails augmenting his numbers. But Joffrey has 50 ships as well.

The royal does however seem to have a number of bigger ships. Dipping 200-400 oars. Not sure how many. Possibly a dozen.

That 25k wasn't counting combatants, just oarsmen and sailors.

[GallowsKnight]

That 25k wasn't counting combatants, just oarsmen and sailors.

Well either way I agree the ships would most likely have crews larger than 100. Some oars requiring more than one oarsman, men to man sails and rigging. Others to crew siege weapons. Cooks and misc other jobs.

As I said I'd easily imagine lord Redwyne having some 30-40k sailors and marines in his pay.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

It's stated that they are the wealthiest of the Stark bannermen, they control the only major city in the North, and they still have more troops than Bolton even after losing ~2,000 in the war. So yes, that seems to be the case.

That is never stated.