Most Powerful Lesser Houses

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Other-in-Law - the Road to Seagard from the Kingsroad, for one.

THE Road to Seagard from the Kingsroad, for one? Surely you're not suggesting that someone starting from the KR can't reach Seagard without passing through the Twins? Because someone taking the KR out of King's Landing who wanted to get to Seagard would be going out of their way if they went by way of the Twins. Which sums it up completely, The Twins are only crucial to a very small and unusual subset of traffic.

[Corvinus85]

Corvinus - your list is interesting. A few questions about the individual regions, and then about the overall list:

Vale - why Grafton and Belmore rather than Corbray, Hunter, or Waynwood?

Stormlands - what about Estermont? I'd probably put them in there somewhere (although not sure which of the others I'd remove - Caron definitely belongs in first)

Westerlands - looks good, although I'd add that Reyne and Tarbeck were probably on the list before Tywin dealt with them

Riverlands - Frey is definitely first, and Mallister seems plausible. But why Vance of Wayfarer's Rest? I'd have put Blackwood or Bracken ahead of them. Piper seems pretty equivalent to Vance

Reach - Hmm...not sure about Rowan. Tarly or Florent seem just as plausible.

Crownlands - Why Buckwell? I don't even remember hearing anything about them at any point in the books. Of the mainland houses, Rosby and Stokeworth both seem more prominent, if lame. I'm not sure about the island houses. Celtigar seems reasonably important.

In terms of the overall order, I think I'd take off Lefford and Rykker. I think Tywin has so centralized the Westerlands that none of the lesser houses has much independent power anymore, and I don't think any of the Crownlands lords is very powerful. Also, below the top three the order seems a bit random. I'd probably put Royce higher, at least.

Grafton commands Gulltown which is a major port, so it is expected to be among the powerful houses of the Vale. Belmore is mentioned to be among the most powerful houses in the Vale, though Waynwood probably could be placed there. But not Corbray. It has some famous members, but it's not that powerful. When the Lords Declarant brought their forces to the Eyrie, Lyn Corbray tagged along, but he didn't bring a thousands men like the others did.

Estermont is among the top of my list for the Stormlands, just not in the top 3.

Westerlands - I agree, Reyne and Tarbeck would have definitely been at the top had they still been around

Why Vance? First because their castle is on all the maps I saw, while the Blackwoods or Brackens are not. And at the Battle of the Golden Tooth, Vance and Piper mustered 6000 men, which is I think more than what Blackwood and Bracken could muster together (not that they ever would :P)

Florent is fourth on my list for the Reach. Rowan is mentioned to be one of the most powerful and richest houses in the Reach, and I simply put them above Florent. Tarly has a strong leader, and probably good soldiers, but their overall strength is not I would say in the top 5 for the Reach.

Crownlands - Rosby was 4th on my list; I guess it could trade places with Buckwell (I'm not sure about this one). I think we learn from Davos or Stannis that Velaryon is the most powerful house sworn to Dragonstone. Celtigar has wealth, but it occupies a small island.

Maybe Rykker does not deserve to be in the top 10 (Darklyn would have), but I think Lefford does. They're bound to have some wealth thanks to all those gold mines, but yes, they're not very independent from the Lannisters.

My lists are not canon, just my opinion.

[Talleyrand]

THE Road to Seagard from the Kingsroad, for one? Surely you're not suggesting that someone starting from the KR can't reach Seagard without passing through the Twins? Because someone taking the KR out of King's Landing who wanted to get to Seagard would be going out of their way if they went by way of the Twins. Which sums it up completely, The Twins are only crucial to a very small and unusual subset of traffic.

Also could anyone wanting to get to seaguard not just take the KR to Riverrun and then just take another road north? Also is Seaguard even that much of an important Port? Anyone wanting to get to has to pass through the much bigger ports of Oldtown and Lannisport so i can only see someone going to Seaguard for a specific order

[Noroldis]

House Hightower is certainly more powerful than House Frey, for the simple reason that they control Oldtown, the main port for the most populous province of the Seven Kingdoms. Logically, this means that Oldtown is the second most important port in Westeros. No matter how much land traffic goes through the Twins and how much wealth they derive from passage tolls, the Freys cannot possibly match that. And if it's prestige you want, the Hightowers used to be kings before the Reach came under control of the Gardeners. The Hightowers may not take part in the wars and political intrigue of the kingdom as much as the Freys, but IMO there's no question as to which House is more powerful.

Oh, and as for how many men the Hightowers can muster, I for one am inclined to trust the words of Randyll Tarly as reported by Sam. As the foremost battle commander of the Reach, Randyll ought to know what he's talking about when it comes to military matters.

[Xenophon]

Also could anyone wanting to get to seaguard not just take the KR to Riverrun and then just take another road north? Also is Seaguard even that much of an important Port?

I don't think the geography around the neck holds up to much logical scrutiny (impassible rivers rising in swamps next to the sea then traveling across the entire continent, etc.). And, I agree, what makes Seaguard important? It's the main port for reaching the Iron Islands, IIRC, but there's not much trader there.

[Talleyrand]

I don't think the geography around the neck holds up to much logical scrutiny (impassible rivers rising in swamps next to the sea then traveling across the entire continent, etc.). And, I agree, what makes Seaguard important? It's the main port for reaching the Iron Islands, IIRC, but there's not much trader there.

Well there's got to be more than 1 large road throughout the Riverlands. Plus if someone wanted to trade with the Iron Isles wouldn't it just be cheaper to go there?

[jlk7e]

THE Road to Seagard from the Kingsroad, for one? Surely you're not suggesting that someone starting from the KR can't reach Seagard without passing through the Twins? Because someone taking the KR out of King's Landing who wanted to get to Seagard would be going out of their way if they went by way of the Twins. Which sums it up completely, The Twins are only crucial to a very small and unusual subset of traffic.

Someone coming down the Kingsroad from the North, maybe? At any rate, the problem with your argument is that we're told that the Freys have become wealthy as a result of their control of the Crossings. Your argument seems to suggest that the Freys are not wealthy. But we know that's not true.

I don't think the geography around the neck holds up to much logical scrutiny (impassible rivers rising in swamps next to the sea then traveling across the entire continent, etc.). And, I agree, what makes Seaguard important? It's the main port for reaching the Iron Islands, IIRC, but there's not much trader there.

I agree the geography doesn't make any sense. Major rivers don't rise in lowlands swamps. But again, your argument seems to be an argument that the Twins aren't important and the Freys aren't wealthy. We are told that they are wealthy, and that their wealth is due to their exploitation of the Twins. Therefore we have to assume that there must be a fair amount of economic traffic going through the Twins, don't we?

Grafton commands Gulltown which is a major port, so it is expected to be among the powerful houses of the Vale. Belmore is mentioned to be among the most powerful houses in the Vale, though Waynwood probably could be placed there. But not Corbray. It has some famous members, but it's not that powerful. When the Lords Declarant brought their forces to the Eyrie, Lyn Corbray tagged along, but he didn't bring a thousands men like the others did.

Lyn Corbray is just a landless knight, though. His brother is Lord Corbray, and he isn't with the Lords Declarant because he sides with Littlefinger.

[Jim Dixon]

No one is mentioning Tarth - decent sized island is likely to be somewhat populous with non-negligible trade, particularly given its location in the narrow sea. Gem wealth as well. Stormlands being relatively weak I should think that would put Tarth at #2 at least.

As of aFfc I think House Baelish should figure into the reckoning. Granted LF's hold on the Riverlands and the Vale is tenuous but the support of the crown, the fact that the Frey's are essentially his bannermen know and his allies in the Vale, all contribute to a fairly compelling house CV, even if the house is really just one guy.

My power rankings as of aFfC:

1) Targaryen - Dragons, the Unsullied, etc.

2) Tyrell - Numbers and wealth. Seem more of a unified front than the Lannisters at the moment. Queen of Thorns>Cersei

3) Lannister - More vulnerable than they have been for awhile. Leadership void.

4) Greyjoy - Naval might seems to compensate for whatever economic deficiencies. Can prey on the wealth of the west with relative impunity.

5) Martell - reports on their power seem conflicting. This ranking probably depends on if they're attacking or defending. I'm half tempted to put them below Hightower and Redwyne since Doran doesn't seem to have the full support of the populace or even his own household.

6) Hightower - money and a large urban population. Haven't suffered too much from the War of the Five Kings

7) Redwyne - Foremost naval power (?), money, influence with #2

8) Baratheon - Stannis' force can't be completely discounted if he was able to deal with the Wildling horde so effectively. No real income or base of operations, though.

9) Arryn - difficult to place. The name could mobilize the entire vale, which is still nearly completely intact as a martial and economic player but the lone remaining scion is under the thumb of...

10) Petyr Baelish - could conceivable take the North, the Vale and the Riverlands in the next few books. That has to count for something. They Freys should answer to him as long as a Lannister sits the throne. Seems to have positive relationships with most of the powerful schemers in Westeros.

11) Frey - powerful and wealthy, they now have Riverrun as well. Suffered some loss of face during the siege and numbers are likely to dwindle due to the Stoneheart effect.

12) Bolton - Wardens of the North, apparently effective in plotting and warring. Have the nominal support of a few significant Northern houses. Tied to the Lannisters. Could be switched with the Freys as they seemed to have emerged from the recent fray having suffered less damage.

13) Royce - Holds the real power in the Vale.

14) the Faith - on the way up

16) Rowan - bannermen, influence

17) Tarly - decent sized army under his/their control. probably non-negligible on its own merits. This may be a bit speculative

18) Beyond the Wall - enormous numbers, very disorganized. Rayder a prisoner, defeated by Stannis/Night Watch, threatened by Others

19) Velaryon - now, with big-a** navy

20) (tie) Tarth - see above, again speculative

20) (tie) Harlaw - with the Iron Men making a big move it seems like their #2 house should make an appearance. Commands a decent number of bannermen, although this seems a bit looser on the Islands.

[jlk7e]

Tarth doesn't have gems - Jaime made that up to keep the bloody mummers from raping Brienne. I don't think there's any reason to think that Tarth is particularly powerful, populous, or wealthy.

[Jim Dixon]

Tarth doesn't have gems - Jaime made that up to keep the bloody mummers from raping Brienne. I don't think there's any reason to think that Tarth is particularly powerful, populous, or wealthy.

The gems thing was confirmed by Ser Hunt in aFfC

[Galen M]

The gems thing was confirmed by Ser Hunt in aFfC

i believe he, too, was bluffing. It was rejected by Brienne in ASoS, so I'd trust her more.

[Noroldis]

I agree the geography doesn't make any sense. Major rivers don't rise in lowlands swamps. But again, your argument seems to be an argument that the Twins aren't important and the Freys aren't wealthy. We are told that they are wealthy, and that their wealth is due to their exploitation of the Twins. Therefore we have to assume that there must be a fair amount of economic traffic going through the Twins, don't we?

I don't think anyone is saying that the Freys aren't wealthy - they have to be in order to muster and equip as many men (especially cavalry) as they do. What we're saying is that House Frey, as wealthy as it might be, still doesn't compare to House Hightower, which gets my vote for "most powerful and richest noble House that isn't a Great House."

[Lord Kunzlo]

Hello All,

I do not quite understand how you are comparing the Twins with Oldtown. Oldtown is the second largest port, home to the Citadel, and former seat of the High Septon, where as the Twins are a Toll Station really. The Freys have risen due to the Cunning of Walder Frey and hisb Treachery, where as the Hightowers were once Kings in their own right but choose to bow to the Tyrells. Anyways just thought I would through that out there. Also I believe the house in Charge of any of the 5 Ports (Gulltown, Oldtown, White Harbour, Lannisport, Sunspear) would probably be the wealthiest House for their respective Kingdoms and therefore be one of the more powerful minor houses.

[Werthead]

Hightower and Frey are both clearly powerful. They're among the few vassal houses who have vassal houses of their own identified in the books, and both have cornered the market in important trade.

However, there are significant differences. The Freys control the Crossing linking the western Riverlands to the North. This is not a negligible amount of trade, with significant off-shoot trade towards the port at Seagard. By the standards of both the North and the Riverlands, there's a fair amount of wealth flowing through the Twins, and the Freys do very well out of it. But at the end of the day, the Frey lands consist of two castles, a fair amount of tolls and a bunch of undistinguished vassals. They're powerful, sure, but only in their own backyard.

The Hightowers are in a vastly different league. Oldtown is a huge, bustling port on the south-western coast of Westeros. Trade from western Westeros, the Summer Islands and the Free Cities (particularly the southern ones) flows through it continuously. It's a cosmopolitan melting-pot of almost half a million people (Oldtown is less populous than King's Landing only by a fairly small margin). Many of the houses sworn to House Hightower are themselves powerful and notable families of the Reach in their own right with a noble lineage extending back at least five or six times further than the Freys. They take more in port duties and docking fees than the Twins does in bridge tolls in any given period, easily. More people likely pass through Oldtown in a day than they do the Twins in a month.

Oldtown is an absolutely massive city by medieval standards, the Twins is a single river crossing. Oldtown has permanant businesses, markets and trading places, the Twins just has a bridge toll. Oldtown is open to ships from around the known world who stop there to trade, the Twins doesn't seem to have any facility to service river traffic at all. There is no comparison here. In terms of financial and political power, the Hightowers are probably far richer and far more powerful than the Greyjoys, Starks and Baratheons, maybe the Martells as well. The Freys are, at the best, knocking around in the tier below.

[Anaxilas]

I once took the time to look at every house in the wiki, and I made lists with what I think are the most powerful houses sworn to a great house.

Here are the top 3 (IMO) for each great house (at the beginning of AGOT):

Arryn: 1) Royce of Runestone 2) Grafton of Gulltown 3) Belmore of Strongsong

Baratheon: 1) Caron of Nightsong 2) Penrose of Parchments 3) Dondarrion of Blackhaven

Greyjoy: 1) Harlaw of Harlaw 2) Goodbrother of Hammerhorn 3) Blacktyde of Blacktyde

Lannister: 1) Lefford of the Golden Tooth 2) Crakehall of Crakehall 3) Marbrand of Ashemark

Martell: 1) Yronwood of Yronwood 2) Dayne of Starfall 3) Fowler of Skyreach

Stark: 1) Manderly of White Harbor 2) Bolton of the Dreadfort 3) Karstark of Karhold

Tully: 1) Frey of the Twins 2) Mallister of Seagard 3) Vance of Wayfarer's Rest

Tyrell: 1) Hightower of Oldtown 2) Redwyne of the Arbor 3) Rowan of Goldengrove

King's Landing and Dragonstone: 1) Rykker of Duskendale 2) Velaryon of Driftmark 3) Buckwell of the Antlers

Putting all this together my top 10 are:

1) Hightower

2) Redwyne

3) Frey

4) Manderly

5) Lefford

6) Royce

7) Rowan

8) Mallister

9) Yronwood

10) Rykker

Interesting. How did you arrive at the houses of strength in the West and Stormlands? I think for these places it is more a guess between which house fields the most individuals we hear of in passing. So for the west, I am leaning toward Crakehall or Marbrand.

I do agree, that prior to the complete destruction of the Reynes of Castamere they were no doubt the 2nd family in the West.

I wonder how much the strengths of lesser houses have changed since the reign of Aerys. In the Stormlands, the Conningtons of Griffin’s Roost seemed to exert 2nd status in power and influence and their downfall was to the benefit of Baratheon. Connington may have even surpassed Baratheon in power and stature during this time. I also happen to like your leap that the wiped out Darklyns of Duskendale appeared to be significant in the Crownlands, in charge of a largish town and thus the inheritors of that seat should be practically just as powerful, though command less prestige due to being upstarts, which is why we don’t hear much about them.

[Anaxilas]

The Daynes are another story all together. Today, they seem to wield no influence or power. When the host of Oberyn meets Tyrion he says:

“Martell brings some formidable companions, it would seem. Not one of the houses Pod had named was small or insignificant. Nine of the greatest lords of Dorne were coming up the kingsroad, them or their heirs…” ASoS, Tyrion V

The Daynes were not included in the column and not included among Tyrion’s top nine.

I have always been perplexed about the Daynes, starting in the first book. In the map and the first map of the series at that, it places Starfall seemingly on its own commanding a region geographically similar to Oldtown in that it lies on a river in an inundating bay. Thus, I was certain Starfall was this heavily important place and the Daynes were great lords; powerful, numerous and high of honour. This trend of having Starfall on the map along with the highly significant Oldtown, Storm’s End, and Sunspear in the South continues for the next two books and it is not until Feast that the holdings I imagined were all dominion of Starfall are actually more checkered. Even so, the Daynes have a noble branch and a lesser branch split between two castles, indicating that in the past, they were more numerous and influential than at present where their lord is the squire to a petty Marcher Lord (Dondarrion).

I don’t know when the fortunes of the family changed in my mind personally, but must be somewhere between Tyrion emitting them as among the nine most powerful houses of Dorne and the fact that their present lord is among the BwoB and a teenager. Thus, the House of Dayne must have fallen on hard times. In ASoS, Ned Dayne tells us that his Aunt, the sister of the legendary figures of Ashara and Arthur is betrothed to Beric, a minor lord from the poor Stormlands. By AFFC, it is certain that Yronwood is the clear 2nd next to Martell and that they have always been a bit unruly (supporting the Blackfyres, which was anti-Martell since they somewhat regularly married the 3 headed dragon).

But the question goes back to Aerys’ day. The Daynes seemed well placed in both the Dornish court (Ashara) and King’s Landing (Arthur). Did this status have something to do with their otherworldly appearance (and so similar to Targaryen) which elevated them far above their station? At the Harrenhall tourney, it seems natural for Ashara to be mixing with the lot of Stark (Eddard, Brandon), Martell (Oberyn and Elia) and Connington (she danced with him at the feast), so they identified her and her family as pretty significant. Everyone involved thought it a good idea for Ned to court her as well, so her family must evoke the presence of being among the top lords in honour. Whether this stems from ancient origin, which I think is part of their MO being noteworthy soldiers, paragons of virtue and honour and having an ancient castle, but otherwise have fallen in absolute terms to their neighbours and without the Targaryen-Martell alliance that kind of hoisted them up and the consequences of Robert’s Rebellion, they have assumed status as minor lords befit marrying similarly placed houses like Dondarrion.

But then, the picture isn’t always presented unanimous either. In AFFC, Arianne says she needs Darkstar and his castle, High Hermitage for her cause, that undoubtedly includes his swords. Arianne considers him being a good consort, being “highborn enough.” When Arianne introduces the Darkstar to Myrcella, she identifies him as the one with the most valour in their little band. Doran also says the Darkstar is the most dangerous man in Dorne. Overall, this highlights one of the two characteristics of the Daynes. They follow a heavily martial tradition of producing famous warriors and are also undeniably noble by blood and by manners, which is well illustrated by Ned Dayne in his conversation with Arya at High Heart.

Finally, I wonder about the earliest history of the Daynes and their relation with the Reach and the rest of Dorne. It seems to me that the Daynes have little in common with the rest of Dorne and more so with Oldtown. I wonder if it was an early rivalry with the Reach that led to the stoney Dornish to ally with the Rhoynar instead of the Andals. Darkstar does say the Daynes have been killing Oakhearts for several thousand years. Perhaps the Daynes were the premier house in the region and competed for land and influence with whatever power held the Reach around Oldtown and the Dornish Marches.

In any case, Martin has made them out to be among the most mysterious family, along with Hightower, but for different reasons, mostly stemming from Lyanna's abduction and the identity of Jon Snow. Like the Hightowers, we are never really sure what is or has gone on there. They seem to occupy the periphery and are not invested in the major politics of the day and age. I am one who loves a good mystery.

[jlk7e]

Werthead - I'd agree with most of your characterization.

Anaxilas - "Nine of the greatest lords" does not mean the same thing as "the nine greatest lords." I think we can assume the Daynes are among the dozen or so most important lords in Dorne, although not any sense of rank, except that they are less powerful than the Yronwoods.

BTW, where are people getting all the "the Daynes are the most ancient house in Westeros" business from? I don't remember that anywhere in the ASOIAF books; I've not read any of the Dunk and Egg stuff, though.

In terms of Duskendale, I'd imagine that the Rykkers aren't as powerful as the Darklyns also because they don't have all the Darklyn lands - probably some of the Darklyn lands were granted to other houses.

One thing that's odd about Westeros, as compared to the real Europe middle ages, is that the major cities are governed by feudal lords. If you look at medieval Europe, cities like Oldtown, Gull Town, and White Harbor would almost certainly be self-governing corporate bodies that owed allegiance either directly to the king or else to the ruler of their region, not the seat of power of important lesser families.

[Noroldis]

One thing that's odd about Westeros, as compared to the real Europe middle ages, is that the major cities are governed by feudal lords. If you look at medieval Europe, cities like Oldtown, Gull Town, and White Harbor would almost certainly be self-governing corporate bodies that owed allegiance either directly to the king or else to the ruler of their region, not the seat of power of important lesser families.

Maybe Martin didn't want to further complicate the sociopolitical landscape of Westeros by adding city councils, each with its own set of personalities and interests, to the mix of greater and lesser nobles who rule the land. Easier to just have everything ruled by nobles of varying influence, who nevertheless all answer to a single House in each of the kingdom's provinces.

[Anaxilas]

Anaxilas - "Nine of the greatest lords" does not mean the same thing as "the nine greatest lords." I think we can assume the Daynes are among the dozen or so most important lords in Dorne, although not any sense of rank, except that they are less powerful than the Yronwoods.

BTW, where are people getting all the "the Daynes are the most ancient house in Westeros" business from? I don't remember that anywhere in the ASOIAF books; I've not read any of the Dunk and Egg stuff, though.

You are right about that, good catch, I hadn’t considered that. But if the Daynes are noticeably absent and are a leading house, you would think Tyrion would find that odd in passing. I assume he knew Ned Dayne was the squire of Dondarrion and likely still with him, but what about his mother or aunt representing the family? His mother (we don’t know if she lives or if she was born a Dayne) or his aunt must be his heir according to Dornish law. Having the heir present and backing Oberyn in his pursuit for justice would be the same as any of the other families present.

I haven’t read any of the Dunk and Egg novellas either. I have never said that the Daynes are the oldest house in Westeros, but they are certainly ancient. Gerold Dayne does say Daynes have been killing Oakhearts for thousands of years. Starfall’s ancient pedigree also dates back apparently 10,000 years to the fall of the meteor that would constitute the famous great sword Dawn and would emblazon their heraldry. The castle is also said to be ancient, evidenced by the tower that has gained the name the Palestone Sword. The ancient castles in this series are all described as having individualized towers, such as Castle Black, Winterfell and Oldtown that I can remember off the top of my head.

I think everything has been set up since the beginning to point to the Daynes as being a significant house, but that since the fall of House Targaryen, the Daynes have fallen on hard times. It seems true to me that the Daynes and Hightowers are being kept hidden for major plot revelations. The Hightowers with sorcery and possibly battling the Others and the Daynes because of the Tower of Joy, what the Kingsguard were doing in Dorne, the identity of Jon Snow, the manner of Ashara's death, their commitment to Rhaegar, etc, etc. We can't have Daynes running around in King's Landing or sending letters to Jon Snow at the wall now can we? It makes a stronger narrative to keep them away and their mysteries with them, but to taunt us every now and then with juicy morsels like Arya's chance encounter with Edric Dayne, Meera's story at Harrenhall and Ned's disturbing dreams.

[Werthead]

IIRC, GRRM has said that the the Dayne sword, Dawn, is about two thousand years old. Presumably that puts a minimum age on the house, and they were knocking around before that. That certainly suggests that the Daynes could have been one of the 'patchwork kingdoms' that existed before Mors Martell and Nymeria consolidated Dorne into one nation.