Faceless Men

[Cause]

Question is a simple one. Did the faceless Men bring about the doom of Valyria! I suppose we cant judge the morality of the act without more knowledge of Valyria but just how cracked are the faceless men?

As an aside question the doom of valyria was three hundred years in the past. How long did the Freehold of valyria exist before its doom however?

[Free Northman]

Yes they did. The Kindly Old Man strongly suggests as much.

Valyria rose about 5000 years ago by overthrowing the Empire of old Ghis. So they existed for about 4000 years.

It seems the Faceless men are sworn enemies of the Dragonlords. And not only did they bring about the Doom, but I have a theory that they might have had a hand in bringing down the Targaryens by orchestrating Robert's rebellion as well.

And Arya might be their tool to bring about the downfall of the reborn Targaryen Empire of Daenerys, to bring an end the Dragonlords for good.

[Errant Bard]

We don't actually know. What we know leads to think they focused on saving Valyria's slaves, running away and hiding. Things such as their view on shedding blood, death being a gift, or the idea that the first FM could have been a Valyrian lord, killing slaves, does not argue in favour of the idea they wanted to annihilate a whole race, or gift a gift to them. (Jaqen himself calls Arya bloodthirsty for killing a few mere guards to let her people escape, I don't think a genocide would fly better)

[Free Northman]

We don't actually know. What we know leads to think they focused on saving Valyria's slaves, running away and hiding. Things such as their view on shedding blood, death being a gift, or the idea that the first FM could have been a Valyrian lord, killing slaves, does not argue in favour of the idea they wanted to annihilate a whole race, or gift a gift to them. (Jaqen himself calls Arya bloodthirsty for killing a few mere guards to let her people escape, I don't think a genocide would fly better)

All we have is Arya stating that the first Faceless Men shouldn't have killed the slaves, but should instead have killed the Dragonlords. To which the Kindly Old Man replied that they would eventually bring the "Gift" to the "them" as well, but that that is a tale for another day.

Which is a pretty strong hint that they had some kind of influence over the death of the Dragonlords as a collective.

[wolfeyoung]

Also, Varlyria's doom seems to have something to do with a volcano eruption, due to the fragmented land. That seems to be beyond the capabilities of the FM or any human. Martin hasn't shown us magic that strong.

The Doom was supposed to happen about 400 years ago, while the KoM says that the FM are older than Braavos. Braavos dates back much farther than the Doom. The time lines do not match.

[The Demon of Darry]

Yes they did. The Kindly Old Man strongly suggests as much.

Valyria rose about 5000 years ago by overthrowing the Empire of old Ghis. So they existed for about 4000 years.

It seems the Faceless men are sworn enemies of the Dragonlords. And not only did they bring about the Doom, but I have a theory that they might have had a hand in bringing down the Targaryens by orchestrating Robert's rebellion as well.

And Arya might be their tool to bring about the downfall of the reborn Targaryen Empire of Daenerys, to bring an end the Dragonlords for good.

In what episode does the kindly man talk about the doom of valyria?

[Errant Bard]

Which is a pretty strong hint that they had some kind of influence over the death of the Dragonlords as a collective.

Depends on what you want to see. The first FM certainly did not kill all the slaves, so in the context of Arya's question, the KoM response simply means the first FM moved on to include the Dragonlords population in the list of candidates for his mercy kill.

Martin hasn't shown us magic that strong.

Agree with the rest of your post, but I just have to mention that Martin explicitly mentioned the Children bringing down the hammer of water on the Stepstones, actually fragmenting the land in the process (also was the cause of the destruction of Moat Caillin), so he has, kinda shown us magic that strong.

In what episode does the kindly man talk about the doom of valyria?

No episode, as it's not in AGOT, it's in AFFC when he recruits Arya.

[Free Northman]

Also, Varlyria's doom seems to have something to do with a volcano eruption, due to the fragmented land. That seems to be beyond the capabilities of the FM or any human. Martin hasn't shown us magic that strong.

The Doom was supposed to happen about 400 years ago, while the KoM says that the FM are older than Braavos. Braavos dates back much farther than the Doom. The time lines do not match.

Timeline update:

Valyria was founded about 5000 years ago.

Over the next 4000 years they enslaved various peoples and put them to work in their mines. Somewhere during this period, the Faceless Men arose and started killing suffering slaves in the mines.

This continued for an undetermined period of time until about 800 years ago they left Valyria and settled in the newly founded hidden city of Braavos.

The Kindly Old Man says that they initially brought the Gift to suffering slaves in the Dragonlords' mines. That was somewhere between 5000 years and 800 years ago, but since he says they are MUCH older than Braavos, it would seem to predate Braavos's founding 800 years ago by some margin. Meaning that they most likely came into existence a few thousand years ago.

This means that the Faceless Men operated in secret in the Mines of Valyria for many centuries - perhaps millenia - prior to the slave exodus and the founding of Braavos.

And finally, the Kindly Old Man tells Arya that while they brought the Gift to slaves initially, they would EVENTUALLY bring it to the Dragonlords as well. Meaning that a significant amount of time passed between their early operations and the bringing of the Gift to the Dragonlords.

The timeline would therefore perfectly accommodate the Doom, which occurred only about 400 years AFTER the founding of Braavos.

This would make sense, given that the Faceless Men - if they had the means to bring about the Doom, would not wish to do it while the slaves were still inhabiting Valyria. Only after their exodus to Braavos would this become a feasible option.

And their causing the Doom would most likely not involve a magical spell that blew up the 14 volcanoes, but rather some act of sabotage that required the infiltration of the Valyrian stronghold, which caused some of the Valyrians own magic to interact catastrophically with the volcanoes, thus not only destroying Valyria, but also significantly harming the presence of magic itself in the World for centuries afterward, as could be seen by the gradual disappearance of the Dragons and all other magic from the planet.

It seems magic is only now recovering from this catastrophe, 400 years later.

[Cause]

Given what we know the children could do. Given that Dragons do seem to release magical energy and given that we know that the Lords of Valyria were supposed to have magical powers far in advance of anything we have seen yet I dont doubt that maigc could have at some point been used to cause the doom. I had originally thought the Valyrian Lords had brought it down on themselves in arrogance and Hubris but the words of the kindly old man has made me think different.

[The Demon of Darry]

No episode, as it's not in AGOT, it's in AFFC when he recruits Arya.

I know, i meant what chapter of AFFC is that in?

[tozka]

It is chapter 22:

The tale of our beginnings. If you would be one of us, you had best know who we are and how we came to be. Men may whisper of the Faceless Men of Braavos, but we are older than the Secret City. Before the Titan rose, before the Unmasking of Uthero, before the Founding, we were. We have flowered in Braavos amongst these northern fogs, but we first took root in Valyria, amongst the wretched slaves who toiled in the deep mines beneath the Fourteen Flames that lit the Freehold’s nights of old. Most mines are dank and chilly places, cut from cold dead stone, but the Fourteen Flames were living mountains with veins of molten rock and hearts of fire. So the mines of old Valyria were always hot, and they grew hotter as the shafts were driven deeper, ever deeper. The slaves toiled in an oven. The rocks around them were too hot to touch. The air stank of brimstone and would sear their lungs as they breathed it. The soles of their feet would burn and blister, even through the thickest sandals. Sometimes, when they broke through a wall in search of gold, they would find steam instead, or boiling water, or molten rock. Certain shafts were cut so low that the slaves could not stand upright, but had to crawl or bend. And there were wyrms in that red darkness too. ... Firewyrms. Some say they are akin to dragons, for wyrms breathe fire too. Instead of soaring through the sky, they bore through stone and soil. If the old tales can be believed, there were wyrms amongst the Fourteen Flames even before the dragons came. The young ones are no larger than that skinny arm of yours, but they can grow to monstrous size and have no love for men.

"Did they kill the slaves?"

"Burnt and blackened corpses were oft found in shafts where the rocks were cracked or full of holes. Yet still the mines drove deeper. Slaves perished by the score, but their masters did not care. Red gold and yellow gold and silver were reckoned to be more precious than the lives of slaves, for slaves were cheap in the old Freehold. During war, the Valyrians took them by the thousands. In times of peace they bred them, though only the worst were sent down to die in the red darkness."

"Didn’t the slaves rise up and fight?"

"Some did," he said. "Revolts were common in the mines, but few accomplished much. The dragonlords of the old Freehold were strong in sorcery, and lesser men defied them at their peril. The first Faceless Man was one who did."

"Who was he?" Arya blurted, before she stopped to think.

"No one," he answered. "Some say he was a slave himself. Others insist he was a freeholder’s son, born of noble stock. Some will even tell you he was an overseer who took pity on his charges. The truth is, no one knows. Whoever he was, he moved amongst the slaves and would hear them at their prayers. Men of a hundred different nations labored in the mines, and each prayed to his own god in his own tongue, yet all were praying for the same thing. It was release they asked for, an end to pain. A small thing, and simple. Yet their gods made no answer, and their suffering went on. Are their gods all deaf? he wondered . . . until a realization came upon him, one night in the red darkness.

"All gods have their instruments, men and women who serve them and help to work their will on earth. The slaves were not crying out to a hundred different gods, as it seemed, but to one god with a hundred different faces . . . and he was that god’s instrument. That very night he chose the most wretched of the slaves, the one who had prayed most earnestly for release, and freed him from his bondage. The first gift had been given."

Arya drew back from him. "He killed the slave?" That did not sound right. "He should have killed the masters!"

"He would bring the gift to them as well . . . but that is a tale for another day, one best shared with no one.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Timeline update:

Valyria was founded about 5000 years ago.

Over the next 4000 years they enslaved various peoples and put them to work in their mines. Somewhere during this period, the Faceless Men arose and started killing suffering slaves in the mines.

This continued for an undetermined period of time until about 800 years ago they left Valyria and settled in the newly founded hidden city of Braavos.

The Kindly Old Man says that they initially brought the Gift to suffering slaves in the Dragonlords' mines. That was somewhere between 5000 years and 800 years ago, but since he says they are MUCH older than Braavos, it would seem to predate Braavos's founding 800 years ago by some margin. Meaning that they most likely came into existence a few thousand years ago.

This means that the Faceless Men operated in secret in the Mines of Valyria for many centuries - perhaps millenia - prior to the slave exodus and the founding of Braavos.

And finally, the Kindly Old Man tells Arya that while they brought the Gift to slaves initially, they would EVENTUALLY bring it to the Dragonlords as well. Meaning that a significant amount of time passed between their early operations and the bringing of the Gift to the Dragonlords.

The timeline would therefore perfectly accommodate the Doom, which occurred only about 400 years AFTER the founding of Braavos.

This would make sense, given that the Faceless Men - if they had the means to bring about the Doom, would not wish to do it while the slaves were still inhabiting Valyria. Only after their exodus to Braavos would this become a feasible option.

And their causing the Doom would most likely not involve a magical spell that blew up the 14 volcanoes, but rather some act of sabotage that required the infiltration of the Valyrian stronghold, which caused some of the Valyrians own magic to interact catastrophically with the volcanoes, thus not only destroying Valyria, but also significantly harming the presence of magic itself in the World for centuries afterward, as could be seen by the gradual disappearance of the Dragons and all other magic from the planet.

It seems magic is only now recovering from this catastrophe, 400 years later.

I am rereading AFFC and was struck by the same conversation between the KoM and Arya. It is clear that the FM had something to do with the doom and you have summarized the key points/time lines excellently. It makes absolute sense. I wonder if they feel that their job is not done until all dragonlords are dead. That would mean Dany is in real danger. Unless the Targs are an exception because they abolished slavery in Westeros?

[kephv]

It's by no means clear. The doom was a natural disaster after all, and there's absolutely nothing to suggest that the FM somehow had the power to cause that amount of destruction or that they would want to.

[Shaggydog Stark]

It's by no means clear. The doom was a natural disaster after all, and there's absolutely nothing to suggest that the FM somehow had the power to cause that amount of destruction or that they would want to.

It seems pretty clear that they were somehow involved from this and that it is a well kept secret:

Arya drew back from him. "He killed the slave?" That did not sound right. "He should have killed the masters!"

"He would bring the gift to them as well . . . but that is a tale for another day, one best shared with no one.

I am not saying that they were the power behind the doom, but they have a connection to it. Remind me, is there anything from the books that explicitly states it was a natural disaster? I can't seem to remember.

[kephv]

He said they'd bring the gift to the masters as well, not that they'd bring it to the whole of Valyria. I'll say agian, I don't think it's clear at all; though I'm not denying that that could end up being the case.

Remind me, is there anything from the books that explicitly states it was a natural disaster? I can't seem to remember.

Well it was never stated that magic wasn't involved but the description fits a natural disaster

it's in ADwD in Tyrion's 8th or 9th chapter I think

.

[Shaggydog Stark]

He said they'd bring the gift to the masters as well, not that they'd bring it to the whole of Valyria. I'll say agian, I don't think it's clear at all; though I'm not denying that that could end up being the case.

Well it was never stated that magic wasn't involved but the description fits a natural disaster

it's in ADwD in Tyrion's 8th or 9th chapter I think

.

Ah okay, thanks for the info. I will look it up. I had just edited my response to you, when you posted this. I think it is supposed to be a secret that they were somehow involved from this:

but that is a tale for another day, one best shared with no one.

Anyway, if you read Free Northman's post, he mentions that they waited until after the exodus of the slaves to Braavos before they carried it out, (whatever "it" is) :).

[Smallfolkperson]

I am rereading AFFC and was struck by the same conversation between the KoM and Arya. It is clear that the FM had something to do with the doom and you have summarized the key points/time lines excellently. It makes absolute sense. I wonder if they feel that their job is not done until all dragonlords are dead. That would mean Dany is in real danger. Unless the Targs are an exception because they abolished slavery in Westeros?

I would argue that Danaerys is not in real danger, since the FM killed in order to help slaves, not just to kill the Dragonlords. Danaerys has basically declared war on the slavers - so I think that the FM would actually help her, despite the fact that Danaerys has dragons. Of course, the FM could also see the dragons as evil, and kill them, so GRRM has a lot of room to write with.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I would argue that Danaerys is not in real danger, since the FM killed in order to help slaves, not just to kill the Dragonlords. Danaerys has basically declared war on the slavers - so I think that the FM would actually help her, despite the fact that Danaerys has dragons. Of course, the FM could also see the dragons as evil, and kill them, so GRRM has a lot of room to write with.

My thoughts exactly. I even thought that they might not have moved against the Targaryens who ruled for 300 years for the same reason. Basically, they abolished slavery in the Seven Kingdoms. I wonder if the exile of the Targs from Valyria to Dragonstone had anything to do with their general stance against slavery. However, it's all conjecture at this point, but it gives us a lot of food for thought, and its fun :)

[blackseer]

Believing in this theory means you have to completely ignore everything the Kindly Old Man said about the Faceless Men. According to him, the FM don't kill for their own purpose or because they believe the other man is evil, but because it's a gift from the gods. Unless he is lying (which is reasonable), the only way the FM were directly involved with the Doom was if someone paid them to do it.

Besides, if they wished to cause the Doom, but only after all the slaves were gone, why would they wait 400 years to do it? They could've wait 30, maybe 50, but 400 is too much. Not even Doran is that patient.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Believing in this theory means you have to completely ignore everything the Kindly Old Man said about the Faceless Men. According to him, the FM don't kill for their own purpose or because they believe the other man is evil, but because it's a gift from the gods. Unless he is lying (which is reasonable), the only way the FM were directly involved with the Doom was if someone paid them to do it.

Besides, if they wished to cause the Doom, but only after all the slaves were gone, why would they wait 400 years to do it? They could've wait 30, maybe 50, but 400 is too much.

I don't even know if we are really discarding anything. I find the FM really mysterious and I am not able to figure them out even after 5 books, forget about trying to figure out their end game. We know too little, they do a lot of contrary things. Anyway, I could go into all the details of what I find wrong with them or basically what is confusing me about them but that would really divert the focus from the discussion here.

I think the OP and the following posters have put forward a credible argument of trying to figure out at least one aspect about them. I don't see why the Kindly Old Man would lie about the doom to Arya, since he didn't really divulge anything. He just vaguely hinted.

If you mean he is lying about their whole purpose, I think that might be possible. Like I said there are a lot of things about them that bothers the hell out of me and doesn't sit right with me. The first FM that killed the first slave did not ask for payment. So they don't always ask for payment, but later there are stories of which there is payment, and IIRC it's not always for money. But in other places we are told they are very expensive.

Anyway, I am trying not drive you crazy with all my chaotic thoughts on this matter. To answer your question, maybe it had something to do with the FM using the dragonlords magic against the dragonlords themselves, so maybe that's why it took so long. Who knows? :dunno: At this point it is all conjecture but its nice to see others put forward a theory that is both reasonable and possible and at least makes a bit of sense compared to all my thoughts on the issue.

Not even Doran is that patient.

That's actually quite funny :D