For some reason this really annoys me

[The Pale Griffin]

Thanks Werthead!

[Evrach]

As far as I know, elements from cyanide's RPG will be canon. Cyanide's lead project designer told me once that GRRM said this to them after his assistant Ty has reread all the plot & scenario. But of course it can still change until the realease of the game.

[Ran]

Unless GRRM publicly states it, I think any claims to canon need to be taken with a grain of salt. The only canonical statement we can rely on at this time is that nothing is canon until it's published directly by GRRM. The details from GoO's RPG concerning history, and Green Ronin's RPG regarding the Strongs, all come by way of GRRM... but he doesn't hold himself to them; if he gets a better idea and drops it in a book, that's what's canon.

Same with the SSM.

[The Pale Griffin]

Just for future reference Ran, is your book going to be considered canon?

[Talleyrand]

Just for future reference Ran, is your book going to be considered canon?

I think it will be the same as SSM, cannon until Martin gets a better idea

[Scafloc]

So has anybody already done something about the pictures?

Come on people, things are not done by itself. If you really feel that the we should use the pictures from Amoka and give the HBO images a less prominent place then do something! I am sure that all comments and thoughts are well intended but the wiki is improved by people actually doing things!

It is not a good motivation to hear other people comment about their annoyance with the wiki without them putting effort in it to improve it.

[The Pale Griffin]

Scafloc, is there any way for someone to show me how to do one of those GNU documentation tags with the new rules. If so, I`ll try and give it a go (no promises - if there`s one glaring weakness in my wikiing it`s uploading files and giving them the proper licenses). I`m currently working my way through AGoT to clean up articles, bring them up to date and make sure all the relevant information is there that I may have missed on my first pass. I`m also adding in the RPG stuff and the SSM stuff as I go. So I`ll try and fit the pictures in somewhere.

Also Scafloc, since your the best with templates, is there some way to get a template made for linking all the battles of a war together. I only ask because that new template you made for the POVs has that black banner which really stands out and I was thinking of something along those lines.

For example, the War of the Five Kings - we could have a template at the bottom of the battle pages so that you could click through the battles in order. Ditto for the Blackfyre Rebellions and Robert`s Rebellion.

[Talleyrand]

So has anybody already done something about the pictures?

Come on people, things are not done by itself. If you really feel that the we should use the pictures from Amoka and give the HBO images a less prominent place then do something! I am sure that all comments and thoughts are well intended but the wiki is improved by people actually doing things!

It is not a good motivation to hear other people comment about their annoyance with the wiki without them putting effort in it to improve it.

1. How do i add images to the wiki?

2. Where can i find Amoka's pictures?

[Scafloc]

Lothbrok,

The pictures can be found on http://en.amokanet.ru/gallery/martin/. You have to save the image on your local pc.

Uploading goes through: upload file (left site of the page or go to http://awoiaf.wester.../Special:Upload).

I tried to find some information about what Amoka had said and came up with the following:

Apparently he allowed only the ASOIAF portraits (not ASOIAF maps, ASOIAF illustrations, Targaryens or The Hedge Knight portraits) and the images can be used (for non commercial) use in "reduced resolution". So if you go Amoka's gallery and choose and image don't press the enlarge button.

Select the file through the "Source filename:"

In the destination file name store the name of the file. This is how the image is called on the wiki.

Then in the summary we should include some information about the file including copyright and so. I made a template does just that, Please include the template in the summary of upload file by entering the following text:

{{Template:Amoka-image}}

That is including the {{ and }}.

Then press the Upload file button.

Now the image is on the wiki. You can add the image to a page by including the following text:

[[File:Example-filename.jpg]]

If the image is large you may want to show it smaller. The text below shows it at 300 pixels:

[[File:Example-filename.jpg|300px]]

[Scafloc]

Some great news:

When looking for some pictures to display on the wiki I saw some of Carrie Best. I asked her for permission to display them on the wiki (with her keeping the copyright of course) and she was kind enough to grant that! There are three of them and think they are great. Check them out:

Daenerys in a Quartheen dress, Melisandre and Ghost

Also if found the site http://www.winterfel...rg/gallery2.htm with some nice images. On the site the author stated the following:

"all the pictures and the drawings contained in this site are Copyright © 2005 M.Luisa Giliberti, and are freely redistributable, along with copyright notice or a link to http://www.winterfell.altervista.org"

So we can use these pictures as well!

[Ran]

Very cool, Scafloc. This makes me realize...

Fan and semi-pro artists (and pros to, who knows) might be more willing to grant permission to the wiki's usage if we highlighted them a bit more. Could templates that display such images be adjusted to display the artist name and a link through to the source site of the image (either an overall gallery/personal website, or a specific gallery page)? If the Ghost page named Best and linked to her site right under the image... well, that would be neat.

One can point out that the wiki so far appears to draw northwards of 200k absolute unique visitors, so it's a decent place for showcasing artwork.

[Asarlai]

Should the wiki be used for showcasing artwork, or should the best images be used? I know the HBO images don't always match up, but using discretion, you can easily see which those are (ie, Syrio) while allowing that the large majority are more or less accurate.

Having the actual character photographs seems more professional than using some fan art, and lends more credibility to the wiki as a reference source.

[Werthead]

Having the actual character photographs seems more professional than using some fan art, and lends more credibility to the wiki as a reference source.

Again, I see no reason why. The WoIaF is primarily about the books, so the illustrations and artwork should refer to the books. Having TV stuff in a separate section is fine and that can be used to talk about the differences between the TV show and the novels, but at the end of the day it is misleading to show a picture of Mark Addy when talking about Book Robert.

[Scafloc]

Again, I see no reason why. The WoIaF is primarily about the books, so the illustrations and artwork should refer to the books. Having TV stuff in a separate section is fine and that can be used to talk about the differences between the TV show and the novels, but at the end of the day it is misleading to show a picture of Mark Addy when talking about Book Robert.

One of Amoka's pictures of Tyrion is also very different then GRRM describes him. So using a picture instead of a shot from the series is no guarantee that it is confirm the books.

Artist or actor it is all interpretation.

Fan and semi-pro artists (and pros to, who knows) might be more willing to grant permission to the wiki's usage if we highlighted them a bit more. Could templates that display such images be adjusted to display the artist name and a link through to the source site of the image (either an overall gallery/personal website, or a specific gallery page)? If the Ghost page named Best and linked to her site right under the image... well, that would be neat.

I have already asked Tiziano Baracchi aka Thaldir for permission to use the pictures of Shagga and Timett he drew for Fantasy Flight Games. He has to check with the art director but he told me he was honoured to be asked!

Let me see about the direct link to the gallery / webpage; should not be too hard I think.

Done it! The thing is you have to add "|link=http://www.carriebest.com/"

So the complete line to include the image made by Carrie Best on the Melisandre page is:

[[File:melisandre_by_carriebest.jpg|Image by Carrie Best©|350px|link=http://www.carriebest.com/]]

[TMWNN]

One of Amoka's pictures of Tyrion is also very different then GRRM describes him. So using a picture instead of a shot from the series is no guarantee that it is confirm the books.

Artist or actor it is all interpretation.

Agreed. Do Wiki editors really want to be in the position of having to decide whether one fan artist's depiction is more "accurate" than another's?

I am coming into this discussion late, but I oppose the notion of deprecating the HBO photos as the primary illustrations for characters. As Ran stated, the TV show has brought a new, much much much larger audience to the world of Westeros (and thus westeros.org); when the first episode's first week of airings ended, the US audience alone was triple that of the worldwide book readership. For better or for worse, Charles Dance is Tywin to the majority of Martin's current audience despite not having a shaved head. Emilia Clarke is Daenerys despite not having violet eyes. Peter Dinklage is Tyrion despite not being hideously ugly.

This does not mean that awoiaf should, say, age Sansa from 11 to 13, or make any other change to its textual content in favor of the show. It means that taking away a very clear means for visitors to immediately visually associate articles to their subjects does them a disservice, especially if the alternative is to give preference to a fan artist's interpretation over a TV show that has had Martin's involvement throughout, including casting.

Harry Potter is the most relevant example of a popular series of novels that gained a much, much larger audience when translated to film with high fidelity. As stated earlier, the Harry Potter wiki uses film photos in its character articles. In fact, they are used not just for infobox portraits, but also to depict key events; see Hermione Granger for an example. I hope awoiaf editors follow suit.

I do agree with Werthead that reciprocating with a link to the gameofthrones.wikia.com article at the bottom of each awoiaf article is worthwhile.

[Ran]

Once we have the Game of Thrones portal in place, then the character images would be appropriate for that section of the site, I'd think.

[Scafloc]

I am exited to say that Mr. Mathia Arkoniel also gave us permission to show his art!

Most of his characters have a strike of arrogance and darkness in them. And I think he captured that marvellous. See some of them:

• Falia Flowers
• Euron Greyjoy
• Aerion Targaryen
• Gerold Dayne
• White walkers
• Jaime Lannister

I have approached a few more artists so maybe in the future more news.

[Scafloc]

And yet another one: a beautiful picture of Sansa building a snow castle in the Eyrie by Akizhao!

[Bahimiron]

There should probably be some standardization in size (width) of images used. Uniformity will give the wiki a much more pleasing and professional look. Go to a page like Aerion Targaryen and the giant picture makes the text look squished. Something like this can be done without editing the source image by using wiki code that automatically resizes the picture. Looking at the code on the linked page, it's actually already being done. It's just that it's being resized to a pretty ludicrous 500px rather than a more reasonable 300px used for header photos on Wikipedia, with 200px used for most in-article images.

Something else to avoid can be seen on Jaime Lannister's page. If we can't get permission to use pictures that don't have watermarks on them we shouldn't bother with using the image. Having a watermark stamped in the middle of a picture makes the wiki look sloppy and makes it look like we're stealing images, even if we have permission.

We also might want to set some sort of limit. Tyrion's page looks like someone had a photo party and forgot to sweep up afterward. If pages become cluttered they become less readable, and ease of readability should be a primary goal for any endeavor with the intent of sharing information.

[Scafloc]

There should probably be some standardization in size (width) of images used. Uniformity will give the wiki a much more pleasing and professional look. Go to a page like Aerion Targaryen and the giant picture makes the text look squished. Something like this can be done without editing the source image by using wiki code that automatically resizes the picture. Looking at the code on the linked page, it's actually already being done. It's just that it's being resized to a pretty ludicrous 500px rather than a more reasonable 300px used for header photos on Wikipedia, with 200px used for most in-article images.

Something else to avoid can be seen on Jaime Lannister's page. If we can't get permission to use pictures that don't have watermarks on them we shouldn't bother with using the image. Having a watermark stamped in the middle of a picture makes the wiki look sloppy and makes it look like we're stealing images, even if we have permission.

We also might want to set some sort of limit. Tyrion's page looks like someone had a photo party and forgot to sweep up afterward. If pages become cluttered they become less readable, and ease of readability should be a primary goal for any endeavor with the intent of sharing information.

Hmm, about the Tyrion page there was a discussion, see here, and there people wanted MORE photos... and that is something I have heard before. Could you add your comments to the discussion page there?

About the watermarks: if you can come up with better pictures then fine. I think that is going to be hard; I think the picture of Arkoniel looks great.

If not then let's leave it until we have. Improvement usually goes with one step at a time.

It is very very unlikely that people would think we are stealing the images. There is a reference to Arkoniels website and in the picture information part of the email in which he gives permission is quoted. If people really think that we are stealing then they are simply not paying attention.