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The Mad Genius Of Petyr Baelish


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206 replies to this topic

#21 Rangers30

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 12:03 PM

Sorry Tolstoy.

#22 koriunderfoot

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 12:59 PM

Wow long post haha, but very good summary of events so far, I absloutely love Littlefinger's character in terms of his ability as a player and his history. Very intresting character and agreed one of the most dangerous

#23 Raksha the Demon

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 01:24 PM

Well, it might have been a long post, but I *did* read it all the way through. Definitely sums up what is known of Littlefinger thus far. You listed multiple motivations for his various actions and left the final verdict open-ended, which is good instead of jumping to the conclusion that its *all* about Sansa Stark. Yes, she's a major pawn/(player?), but I doubt she is his entire motivation. As mentioned, he feeds on chaos, and is a bit of a trickster/Loki type character, just more subtle in that he's not openly gloating about his tricksy genius ways to others (though the HBO show would have him doing so to his whores, lol. [img]http://asoiaf.wester...ault/tongue.gif[/img])

So, thanks, its been a while since I read the books all the way through and it was nice to have a refresher.

Cheers. /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />




I think Littlefinger has two goals - one being Power and the other being Possession of Sansa Stark. I have no doubt that if these two goals were in conflict, Baelish would take all of two seconds to sacrifice Sansa. Maybe three. But for now; Baelish's power is expanding; and he has almost total control over Sansa. He is also on the road to possessing her sexually; which I would find creepy, but it could happen. Baelish has been in love with Catelyn for all of his adult life; and I think he is trying to fulfill that frustrated love, relive his thwarted boyhood dreams, with Sansa, who is not only beautiful, young and pliable, but at the moment very vulnerable and dependent on him. Still, as far as I can tell, Baelish's first and greatest love is himself; intertwined with the accumulation of power.

Edited by Raksha the Demon, 08 October 2011 - 11:05 AM.


#24 Raksha the Demon

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 01:24 PM

Well, it might have been a long post, but I *did* read it all the way through. Definitely sums up what is known of Littlefinger thus far. You listed multiple motivations for his various actions and left the final verdict open-ended, which is good instead of jumping to the conclusion that its *all* about Sansa Stark. Yes, she's a major pawn/(player?), but I doubt she is his entire motivation. As mentioned, he feeds on chaos, and is a bit of a trickster/Loki type character, just more subtle in that he's not openly gloating about his tricksy genius ways to others (though the HBO show would have him doing so to his whores, lol. /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />)

So, thanks, its been a while since I read the books all the way through and it was nice to have a refresher.

Cheers. /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />




I think Littlefinger has two goals - one being Power and the other being Possession of Sansa Stark. I have no doubt that if these two goals were in conflict, Baelish would take all of two seconds to sacrifice Sansa. Maybe three. But for now; Baelish's power is expanding; and he has almost total control over Sansa. He is also on the road to possessing her sexually; which I would find creepy, but it could happen. Baelish has been in love with Catelyn for all of his adult life; and I think he is trying to fulfill that frustrated love, relive his thwarted boyhood dreams, with Sansa, who is not only beautiful, young and pliable, but at the moment very vulnerable and dependent on him. Still, as far as I can tell, Baelish's first and greatest love is himself; intertwined with the accumulation of power.


#25 Raksha the Demon

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 01:25 PM

Well, it might have been a long post, but I *did* read it all the way through. Definitely sums up what is known of Littlefinger thus far. You listed multiple motivations for his various actions and left the final verdict open-ended, which is good instead of jumping to the conclusion that its *all* about Sansa Stark. Yes, she's a major pawn/(player?), but I doubt she is his entire motivation. As mentioned, he feeds on chaos, and is a bit of a trickster/Loki type character, just more subtle in that he's not openly gloating about his tricksy genius ways to others (though the HBO show would have him doing so to his whores, lol. /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />)

So, thanks, its been a while since I read the books all the way through and it was nice to have a refresher.

Cheers. /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />




I think Littlefinger has two goals - one being Power and the other being Possession of Sansa Stark. I have no doubt that if these two goals were in conflict, Baelish would take all of two seconds to sacrifice Sansa. Maybe three. But for now; Baelish's power is expanding; and he has almost total control over Sansa. He is also on the road to possessing her sexually; which I would find creepy, but it could happen. Baelish has been in love with Catelyn for all of his adult life; and I think he is trying to fulfill that frustrated love, relive his thwarted boyhood dreams, with Sansa, who is not only beautiful, young and pliable, but at the moment very vulnerable and dependent on him. Still, as far as I can tell, Baelish's first and greatest love is himself; intertwined with the accumulation of power.


#26 starki

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 01:42 PM

Good question, he still hasn't revealed his true motive. I'd like to think he will bide his time for when Daenerys enters the Kingdoms (since Lannisters look to be effectively destroying their family).

I would love for this moment to happen someday when she does reveal her identity in public :

I am Sansa Stark, Lady of Winterfell. Arrest this man, Petyr Baelish. By his own admission to me, he planned the murder of Joffrey Baratheon, the King. He murdered my aunt, Lysa Arryn. She revelead to me he had planned the murder of Jon Arryn, the Hand of the King, and blaming the Lannisters, thus causing the war.

Edited by starki, 07 June 2011 - 01:45 PM.


#27 The_Halfhand

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 02:32 PM

Good question, he still hasn't revealed his true motive. I'd like to think he will bide his time for when Daenerys enters the Kingdoms (since Lannisters look to be effectively destroying their family).

I would love for this moment to happen someday when she does reveal her identity in public :

I am Sansa Stark, Lady of Winterfell. Arrest this man, Petyr Baelish. By his own admission to me, he planned the murder of Joffrey Baratheon, the King. He murdered my aunt, Lysa Arryn. She revelead to me he had planned the murder of Jon Arryn, the Hand of the King, and blaming the Lannisters, thus causing the war.


Yes, I'm constantly wondering what Petyr's endgame is. I know he's aware of the reports coming from the Wall, and I believe is knows of the rebirth of dragons, and he does seem to believe in curses, so its not far fetched to think he knows about the supernatural aspects of his world. But how this plays into his ultimate plans in still unclear to me. I'm not sure what he's striving for or why he's motivated to reach so high. He really is a big mystery.

But I doubt Sansa could hope to arrest Petyr based on her word vs. his. Petyr has so many people in his pocket, and so many people who owe their titles and riches to him, he's kind-of untouchable. If Sansa is really going to take down Petyr, she'd need to out-play him, and she's not at that level yet. I guess time will tell.

#28 Timekeeper

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 03:51 PM

Yes, I'm constantly wondering what Petyr's endgame is. I know he's aware of the reports coming from the Wall, and I believe is knows of the rebirth of dragons, and he does seem to believe in curses, so its not far fetched to think he knows about the supernatural aspects of his world. But how this plays into his ultimate plans in still unclear to me. I'm not sure what he's striving for or why he's motivated to reach so high. He really is a big mystery.


I don't really think Littlefinger concerns himself with things that could be considered "supernatural". His mentions of Harrenhal and the jape to Tyrion that the Tower of the Hand was cursed seemed to be more amused than actually "threatened" by what they stand for. He's a worldly, logical guy wanting to poke fun at Tyrion and give a message at the same time. "Are you sure you want to go through with this, my lord? The last four men in the tower met with grisly ends." With Harrenhal, it's always seemed to me to be more a "cursed or not, why take chances?" sort of attitude. Remember, in this world dragons are a natural phenomenon, and thanks to Littlefinger's connections with merchants and brothels would know the news coming in from the east. Sure, they may be flying lizards that breathe fire, but they're as "normal" as dogs or wolves or lions. The Others, on the other hand...

Also, extremely nice recap of everything of Littlefinger to this point in the series. I read the entire thing earlier this morning, but having just gotten off work then, I figured sleep was in my better interest at the time. /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

#29 mandak

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 05:01 PM

"without being distracted by other characters and events he doesn't have a part in"

I think he's got a part in just about everybody's pie, but I did enjoy reading the synopsis of his machinations. And the theory about handing over half the Seven Kingdoms to Daenerys.

#30 C.K.Martino

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 05:15 PM

I always thought that it was pretty obvious what Littlefinger's endgame is. His monologue in the TV show pretty much confirmed it for me.

Littlefinger's endgame is to end the game of thrones. In ASoIaF, he represents the renaissance, the rise of the merchant class and the toppling of the aristocracy. He is rich and powerful without being born into aristocracy. Instead of being born into priviledge, he uses his own hard work to create his own future. I don't think he wants Sansa or Catelyn. He resents that he never had a chance with her because she was the daughter of a Tully and he was the son of a Baelish. They were better together, but Brandon Stark got her just because he was born into power. He looked at his society where the only way to defeat a noble was by playing the game, and to play the game you had be born into it. He's essentially thinking meta-game, he's beating his opponent by flipping the board.

#31 Xenophon

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 05:35 PM

Holy crap that's long. Can we get an executive summary of the points you want to discuss?

#32 The_Halfhand

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 05:51 PM

I always thought that it was pretty obvious what Littlefinger's endgame is. His monologue in the TV show pretty much confirmed it for me.

Littlefinger's endgame is to end the game of thrones. In ASoIaF, he represents the renaissance, the rise of the merchant class and the toppling of the aristocracy. He is rich and powerful without being born into aristocracy. Instead of being born into priviledge, he uses his own hard work to create his own future. I don't think he wants Sansa or Catelyn. He resents that he never had a chance with her because she was the daughter of a Tully and he was the son of a Baelish. They were better together, but Brandon Stark got her just because he was born into power. He looked at his society where the only way to defeat a noble was by playing the game, and to play the game you had be born into it. He's essentially thinking meta-game, he's beating his opponent by flipping the board.


That's a very interesting way to look at it, Martino. Littlefinger is the ultimate form of Democracy! He wants to bring down the feudal system and allow people of worth to rise to power based on their merit. Very interesting insight.

#33 Star_Eyes

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 06:24 PM

Great recap! This helped me keep some things straight at the end of AFFC. I think I'm due for a re-read!

#34 antibodies

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 10:35 PM

Thanks to this long explanation, which I plan to print out and read a dozen times, I finally begin to see the similarity between Little Finger and the author: They are both madly ambitious and cunning, and they both thrive on chaos --- The more the better! The messier the better! /bowdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bowdown:' />

#35 king biters chamber pot

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 12:55 AM

I only got about half way through the post, but it was just too much Petyr praise for me.
Anyhow, I think Petyr has peaked.

He once previously acted on ambitions beyond those afforded to his place in the class heirarchy. (the fight over Catelyn) It didn't end so well, with him being driven back all the way into the river. It seems to me he has set himself up to be driven back all the way to the fingers and into the sea.

His biggest strength has been the fact that he's basically viewed as a nobody, willing to set someone up and destroy them, He set up Ned on behalf of the Lannisters, only to set up the Lannisters on behalf of the Tyrell's.

He has systematically killed off all those stupid enough to trust him AKA his "friends", and left his potential enemies alive (Barristan Selmy, Tyrion, Varys). And the Tyrells who were in on his schemes know enough that they should not trust him.

through Barristan he can expect no mercy from Dany should she rise to power.

should Varys wish, all he needs to do is spread a couple of whispers through his covert channels. "Has anybody noticed that a wake of death has seemed to follow this littlefinger guy from Kings Landing to the Eyrie?" should be enough, It should not be difficult to erode the little support he has there with all of his knowledge, even from afar.

Tyrion: A Lannister always pays his debts.

not to mention Sansa.

#36 tarantella

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 02:22 AM

I only got about half way through the post, but it was just too much Petyr praise for me.
Anyhow, I think Petyr has peaked.

He once previously acted on ambitions beyond those afforded to his place in the class heirarchy. (the fight over Catelyn) It didn't end so well, with him being driven back all the way into the river. It seems to me he has set himself up to be driven back all the way to the fingers and into the sea.

His biggest strength has been the fact that he's basically viewed as a nobody, willing to set someone up and destroy them, He set up Ned on behalf of the Lannisters, only to set up the Lannisters on behalf of the Tyrell's.

He has systematically killed off all those stupid enough to trust him AKA his "friends", and left his potential enemies alive (Barristan Selmy, Tyrion, Varys). And the Tyrells who were in on his schemes know enough that they should not trust him.

through Barristan he can expect no mercy from Dany should she rise to power.

should Varys wish, all he needs to do is spread a couple of whispers through his covert channels. "Has anybody noticed that a wake of death has seemed to follow this littlefinger guy from Kings Landing to the Eyrie?" should be enough, It should not be difficult to erode the little support he has there with all of his knowledge, even from afar.

Tyrion: A Lannister always pays his debts.

not to mention Sansa.


Astute.

I'm hoping for an ending where Littlefinger is holed up in the Eyrie and under siege, his garrison turns on him (with Sansa's support?) and he follows Lysa out the Moon Door. Understand, I don't hate the guy, but that would just be a great and fitting end for him.

#37 Lord of Nothing

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 03:08 AM

I thought this was a great post. I've always thought that Littlefinger was destined for some sort of greatness and I really hope he achieves it in the end. I hate rooting for the little guys and I'd say Littlefinger really is a big player who is playing the game properly. Great analysis.

#38 vsthorvs

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 04:46 AM

tl:dr most of it.


A good description of him would be that he's the Iago of the series, and yes, I see a lot of Shakespeare in ASOIAF. "I am not what I am" always reminds me of Baelish warning that Ned would be wise not to trust him.



Love the comparison to Iago, never considered it, but it fits a lot. Not that Littlefinger is as self destructive as Iago was, but his motives seem to be one part revenge, one part personal desire for promotion (maybe more in LF's case), and several parts not knowing what the heck his motivation is. Plus very clever and scheming. Only thing he's really lacking is the racism.

#39 Raksha the Demon

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 04:49 AM


I think Littlefinger has two goals - one being Power and the other being Possession of Sansa Stark. I have no doubt that if these two goals were in conflict, Baelish would take all of two seconds to sacrifice Sansa. Maybe three. But for now; Baelish's power is expanding; and he has almost total control over Sansa. He is also on the road to possessing her sexually; which I would find creepy, but it could happen. Baelish has been in love with Catelyn for all of his adult life; and I think he is trying to fulfill that frustrated love, relive his thwarted boyhood dreams, with Sansa, who is not only beautiful, young and pliable, but at the moment very vulnerable and dependent on him. Still, as far as I can tell, Baelish's first and greatest love is himself; intertwined with the accumulation of power.






Shoot, this posted three times? I only meant it to post once, but had difficulty posting it at all, in fact I thought the post was eaten before ever making it to the thread. Sorry. I can't figure out how to delete the two extra postings....


#40 Roose Boltons Pet Leech

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 06:38 AM

I think suggesting that LF is trying to bring down the entire social system is a bit much. Firstly, LF is not really low-born: he may be a minor provincial lordling, but he's still light years more privileged than the vast majority of people in Westeros. Secondly, he is utterly selfish: he doesn't want to advance people like himself (let alone people below him), he only wants to advance himself. Thirdly, even if he represents the merchant classes, all he's doing is replacing land-derived privilege with commerce-derived privilege: meritocratic democracy is still a long, long way off.