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The Wiseman´s Fear VI (Spoilers and discussion)


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#381 JezDynamite

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:12 AM

Hi everyone

First time posting here. I've really enjoyed reading the majority of the 6 threads of discussions and they are brilliant. Though I wont deny I skipped a few pages. Together with taking part in the Tor reread, I'm definitely overloading my brain with Four Corner's theories!

@thistlepong - Hi. I was wondering if you wouldn't mind posting your errata again please? I saw it in one of the earlier threads and I wasn't sure if it had grown. I may have something to add to it (the missing days between Kvothe leaving Tarbean and attending his first admissions interview).

Also, does anyone think similarly to me about the story that Kvothe had to trick a demon to win his heart's desire, and fight/kill an angel to keep it? My take is that it is an embellished story that the Chronicler heard at some point in the past. At no point in time does Kvothe admit to any events like this actually happening. It just struck me as being another fantastical story, just like the ones Old Cob tells.

Edited by magic23, 14 February 2012 - 07:15 AM.


#382 thistlepong

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:33 AM

I’ll dig it out as soon as I can. I believe the missing days were on there. I consider them the first evidence of bulshytt in the narrative, but I hope it’s not an excuse for Rothfuss to simply say that parts of the story were lies. Some of the stuff in the original errata was corrected in later printings and translations as noted by folks here and elsewhere. In a perfect world the Kindle version would be like a google doc with a change log.

I’d be kind of disappointed to learn that the trick a demon/fight an angel didn’t have a bit of truth behind it. Folks tend to expect it’s an Amyr/Tehlu & Pals and Chandrian thing.

Aemon Blackfyre… wow. Taken together, Trapis’s story, presumably from The Book of the Path, and Skarpi’s in “Tehlu’s Watchful Eye” don’t contradict one another. Laying the related events from all storytellers on a timeline, Tehlu & Pals are empowered shortly after the Betrayal – 5000 years give or take. Trapis story, in his own words, is like 500-1000 years old. Given that there are 1000 years of Tehlin documents, the later is probably correct. The Tehlin testament might even be mostly true as a tale of the most recent major conflict between Tehlu & Pals and the Seven. In any case it served as a means to legitimize the Aturan Empire and suggests close ties between the Empire and Tehlu & Pals as well as providing a modern platform for persecution of Faen trespassers and remnants, specifically delegitimizing the Seven.

So much for the supportable facts. Who were the Ruach? What happened to them? What’s the relationship between the eternal and temporal Amyr?

I think, as before, that the Ruach were the citizens of Ergen, who were virtually wiped out by war and then betrayal. Some remarkable individuals were empowered by Aleph, some potentially by Selitos. The rest presumably took the other option. Shehyn’s “what we were before we were Adem” suggests they were changed as well, made human. The Amyr can’t kill Haliax, so they must confound him. As actors on the stage of history, these beings can raise empires, inspire religions, and found orders. But there aren’t very many of them. The humans who form the mass of all of the above and/or the actions of the Seven can weaken or collapse them.

We actually know far more about the Creation War era than we do about almost anything else. It takes civilization about three millennia to recover. Another thousand years before the next great age of nations. There are hints of civilizations predating Heldred, but nothing certain. The Adem and maybe the Loeclos Box are the only post War pre Cealdim things we can concretely identify.

#383 Nisheeth

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:00 PM

Also, does anyone think similarly to me about the story that Kvothe had to trick a demon to win his heart's desire, and fight/kill an angel to keep it? My take is that it is an embellished story that the Chronicler heard at some point in the past. At no point in time does Kvothe admit to any events like this actually happening. It just struck me as being another fantastical story, just like the ones Old Cob tells.


What I think is that the events happened, but the people exaggerated it until it became as Chronicler knows.
I think so because of the origin of some stories we have been told about Kvothe like the one with the nine words to make a horse run nearly 100 miles and such...

#384 jumbles

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:31 PM

Also, does anyone think similarly to me about the story that Kvothe had to trick a demon to win his heart's desire, and fight/kill an angel to keep it? My take is that it is an embellished story that the Chronicler heard at some point in the past. At no point in time does Kvothe admit to any events like this actually happening. It just struck me as being another fantastical story, just like the ones Old Cob tells.

I’d be kind of disappointed to learn that the trick a demon/fight an angel didn’t have a bit of truth behind it. Folks tend to expect it’s an Amyr/Tehlu & Pals and Chandrian thing.


It wouldn't surprise me if it was referring to Chandrian/Angels/Amyr. It also wouldn't surprise me if the demon was Devi, who is known as Demon Devi.

#385 JezDynamite

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 06:01 PM

I’ll dig it out as soon as I can.


Thanks.

#386 thistlepong

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:47 PM

/shocked.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':shocked:' /> the list is incomplete... and abbreviated... most inspired argument, dismissal, and crackpotism
and i kind of think frame and narrative errors should be split, but they're not here...
...rereading the books might be faster than rereading the threads

Errata
  • Stapes's ring - He gives Kvothe a silver ring and Kvothe returns a gold ring
  • The period between Hallowfell and the murder of the troupe - 4-8 months are missing
  • The Mating Habits of the Common Draccus -

    Kvothe reads it in his first term. Devan hears a story about Kvothe there.

  • Sim's dad is a duke. Kvothe learns this in NotW and is surprised by it in WMF.

  • Auri doesn't talk during meals in WMF. But she did in NotW.

  • The local Newarre Tehlin authority's name and title keep changing.

  • Skarpi calls Kvothe by name

  • Ambrose calls Kvothe by name the first time they encounter one another

    corrected

​magic23, I forget how many days are missing between Tarbean and Imre.






more
Temic and Tema are bafflingly misunderstood by Laurian, Arliden, and the German translators

Is it worth rebuilding this?

#387 Aemon Blackfyre

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:11 AM

Aemon Blackfyre… wow. Taken together, Trapis’s story, presumably from The Book of the Path, and Skarpi’s in “Tehlu’s Watchful Eye” don’t contradict one another. Laying the related events from all storytellers on a timeline, Tehlu & Pals are empowered shortly after the Betrayal – 5000 years give or take. Trapis story, in his own words, is like 500-1000 years old. Given that there are 1000 years of Tehlin documents, the later is probably correct. The Tehlin testament might even be mostly true as a tale of the most recent major conflict between Tehlu & Pals and the Seven. In any case it served as a means to legitimize the Aturan Empire and suggests close ties between the Empire and Tehlu & Pals as well as providing a modern platform for persecution of Faen trespassers and remnants, specifically delegitimizing the Seven.


I agree with you. I never said there was a contradiction i only think it's strange that after 4000 years the chandrian proceed to destroy 6 cities only to be stopped by Tehlu & Pals on the seventh since this is very similar to what happened on the Creation War, well maybe not very similar but kinda similar at least ( since there were 7 cities and Myr Tariniel and one of the 7 also "survived" ). The other thing is it was probably a bit more then 1000 years since according to Trapis the church did not exist at the time ( though people knew about Tehlu). At last, if the Empire and Tehlu & Pals are "close" can i assume you're including the church? If so, why would the Amyr join them at all? As far as i could grasp Selitos did not wan't to have anything to do to whatever Tehlu is doing now and he clearly states nothing (and no one) is getting in their way (the greater good). What i'm thinking here is something along these lines. Tehlu & Pals Vs Chandrian Vs Amyr. The human Amyr being a plot to delegitimize the true Amyr in their search for vendetta. Of course this are all just assumptions but i guess that's the fun XD.

#388 JezDynamite

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:50 AM

:magic23, I forget how many days are missing between Tarbean and Imre.


Kvothe leaves Tarbean on day 2 of a span (being Shuden, 35th day of the month of Caitelyn) if the bookseller is telling the truth. Kvothe says he has 5 days to get to the Uni cause admissions finish on Cendlng (the 10th day of the span) according to Ben. Even if the bookseller is lying, Kvothe should know that there are 8 days between Shuden and Cendling, not 5 days.

Kvothe takes 5 nights to get to his admissions interview, being 4 nights with Roent's caravan and one night alone outside of the city limits of Imre.

If he left Tarben on Shuden, he should really be arriving at his interview on Chaen (7th day of the span). But in his interview, which Wil says is the last day of interviews, the Masters state that the date is the 43rd of Caitelyn, which is 8 days after Shuden the 35th, which would make the interview day Cendling.

I'd say there are 3 days missing. If PR had said the date that Kvothe left Tarbean was Orden the 38th and not Shuden the 35th, it would all make sense to me.

@thistlepong

- In reference to "is it worth rebuilding this?", I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you mean.

#389 lanceschaubert

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 11:38 AM

People mentioned earlier that the Maer isn't penitent based on his personality. However, he seemed pretty penitent of hiring Kvothe when Lady Lackless found out about it. I wouldn't rule him out just yet.

Seven things stand before
The entrance to the Lackless door.
One of them a ring unworn
One a word that is forsworn
One a time that must be right
One a candle without light
One a son who brings the blood
One a door that holds the flood
One a thing tight-held in keeping
Then comes that which comes with sleeping.


I know this is from earlier, but I've been thinking about it a bit...
  • ring unworn - though the wooden ring is the kind you don't wear, based on basic riddle tropes, I think this is a different kind of ring entirely.
  • name forsworn - to "forswear" is to renounce. I think you have to renounce your name to open the box, which would explain the Kvothe to Kote transformation. Also, taken with Maer as penitent, it could be that the Maer repents of his own name.
  • time right - yeah, night with no moon comes up too frequently for that not to be it.
  • candle w/out light - Auri's candle seems to fit.
  • son blood - son who brings the blood or his blood? If, as some suspect, it would be the Lackless kid's blood that Kvothe brings, then he could technically kill a king to get the lockless box open.
  • door/flood - yeah, I like an underwater door as someone who likes secret passages, but there are other types of flood. For instance, a door that holds back the Fae or the Amyr or the Chandrian. "One a door that holds the flood" is interesting if it means "Throw back the veil on the Fae before you open the laceless box," at least as a plot device...
  • tight-held in keeping - what's tighter than a knot? what's kept closer than hair?
  • comes with sleeping - again, dreams. Maybe Denna needs dreams to be free. "I have rescued princesses back from sleeping barrow kings." Ash could have her dreams held captive, in which case Kvothe might need to go to dreamworld to rescue her.
Hooray for crackpot theories! Okay, I'm posting the link to this afternoon's post, but it won't actually publish until like 4:30 pm CST. If you click beforehand, the link won't work. Sorry to do it this way, but I'm tutoring this afternoon and won't have access to any interwebs:

Kingkiller Nigreddo: Wind

Edited by lanceschaubert, 15 February 2012 - 11:41 AM.


#390 lanceschaubert

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 11:43 AM

In short, I think that opening the Lackless box could be equivalent to opening pandora's box. It takes breaking all hell loose in order to access the dream world.

#391 thistlepong

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:52 PM

So a tor commenter suggested that the glass or stone within the Loeclos Box was both; a substance familiar to most folks here: obsidian. Specifically the mountain glass Selitos used to tear out his eye and curse Lanre.

What follows is a long lazy bit of self plagiarism that lacks some of the thoroughness I've tried to deploy in the past.


That /(obsidian)/ is trapped withn the box, possibly by multiple magics. The wood has the same scent as the Rhinna tree, in which the Cthaeh is imprisoned. And we have no idea why the Cthaeh can't leave the tree. So the Loeclos binds the Cthaeh. Which would make the Cthaeh Selitos, a pet theory that won't stop yapping at me.

The Cthaeh declined to answer Kvothe about the Amyr. Bear with me a moment. Selitos was a pretty important figure in the Creation War, and he's the subject of Skarpi's story: "a man who lost his eye and gained a better sight."

Just by looking at a thing Selitos could see its hidden name and understand it. In those days there were many who could do such things, but Selitos was the most powerful namer of anyone alive in that age.
and
Such was the power of his sight that he could read the hearts of men like heavy-lettered books.

He begins with most of what Tehlu & Pals end up with in the following story. No wonder Aleph's gift wasn't much of a temptation. Later on in this first one, he notes that Iax, Aleph and Lyra could match his skill in names. They could not surpass it. Perhaps they couldn't see into the heart so well. The Cthaeh, on the other hand, is something else. Yes, it can read Kvothe's heart as though he we asking questions aloud. But according to Bast, it can also infer the furture perfectly like Augustine's God. Better sight indeed.

Iax spoke to the Cthaeh before he stole the moon. Since Hespe's story is all we have to go on, and Bast's assertion providing the link between that and Felurian's portion, we'll have to take what we can from it. Jax finds the odd old hermit high in the mountains, a location that evokes (Myr) Tariniel. The odd old hermit listens to his heart, answers some questions, and offers some advice. Jax misinsterprets what's said and goes about binding the moon.

But Lanre spoke to the Cthaeh before orchestrating the betrayal of Myr Tariniel. I'd like to revisit the word choice. However, the simplest interpretation is that yes, he did. Selitos and Lanre walked and talked all day, then Lanre turned on him. Slightly more complicated but ever so much more satisfying is that seven were poisoned against the empire and six of them betrayed the cities that trusted them. These seven cities were defended by stregth of arm, and thus by Lanre, to paraphrase Skarpi. One city was not betrayed. And Selitos was surprised. In fact, in Denna's version, "Selitos was a tyrant, an insane monster who tore out his own eye in fury at Lanre’s clever trickery." They agree on a point, Selitos was tricked. He did not see this coming.

You have beaten me once through guile, but never again. Now I see truer than before and my power is upon me.

I'm pretty convinced, but it has some disturbing repercussions. Selitos and Aleph are definitely shapers. I think someone else noted that these identified powerful namers from the war are shown doing stuff that looks suspiciously like shaping: changing Haliax, changing Tehlu, rez'ing Lanre, stealing the moon.

I keep coming back to other weird points, too. The beast with scales of black iron wasn't Faen, unless it was in continual pain and the Fae around it hated life constantly. Lanre fought it and slew it at the cost of his own life. and it really seems like a draccus, and those are mortal creatures that still exist. Tehlu & Pals "leave this world behind, to better serve it" and "disappear forever from mortal sight." They're clearly active in the Mortal, so what world did they leave behind? Coming back to Bast, why does he refer to the betrayal of Myr Tariniel? He's Faen. If it was in the Mortal, he benefitted. And so, according to Felurian, the Mortal brought war to Faen when Faen stole the moon. Was the war waged there? Were all eight cities Faen? Shehyn's story notes that not only did the sky change, the land cracked as well. Does that explain how Murella could be in Faen following the theft of the moon?

Edited by thistlepong, 23 February 2012 - 09:53 PM.


#392 Marsala

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:05 AM

So a tor commenter suggested that the glass or stone within the Loeclos Box was both; a substance familiar to most folks here: obsidian. Specifically the mountain glass Selitos used to tear out his eye and curse Lanre.

What follows is a long lazy bit of self plagiarism that lacks some of the thoroughness I've tried to deploy in the past.


That /(obsidian)/ is trapped withn the box, possibly by multiple magics. The wood has the same scent as the Rhinna tree, in which the Cthaeh is imprisoned. And we have no idea why the Cthaeh can't leave the tree. So the Loeclos binds the Cthaeh. Which would make the Cthaeh Selitos, a pet theory that won't stop yapping at me.

The Cthaeh declined to answer Kvothe about the Amyr. Bear with me a moment. Selitos was a pretty important figure in the Creation War, and he's the subject of Skarpi's story: "a man who lost his eye and gained a better sight."

He begins with most of what Tehlu & Pals end up with in the following story. No wonder Aleph's gift wasn't much of a temptation. Later on in this first one, he notes that Iax, Aleph and Lyra could match his skill in names. They could not surpass it. Perhaps they couldn't see into the heart so well. The Cthaeh, on the other hand, is something else. Yes, it can read Kvothe's heart as though he we asking questions aloud. But according to Bast, it can also infer the furture perfectly like Augustine's God. Better sight indeed.

Iax spoke to the Cthaeh before he stole the moon. Since Hespe's story is all we have to go on, and Bast's assertion providing the link between that and Felurian's portion, we'll have to take what we can from it. Jax finds the odd old hermit high in the mountains, a location that evokes (Myr) Tariniel. The odd old hermit listens to his heart, answers some questions, and offers some advice. Jax misinsterprets what's said and goes about binding the moon.

But Lanre spoke to the Cthaeh before orchestrating the betrayal of Myr Tariniel. I'd like to revisit the word choice. However, the simplest interpretation is that yes, he did. Selitos and Lanre walked and talked all day, then Lanre turned on him. Slightly more complicated but ever so much more satisfying is that seven were poisoned against the empire and six of them betrayed the cities that trusted them. These seven cities were defended by stregth of arm, and thus by Lanre, to paraphrase Skarpi. One city was not betrayed. And Selitos was surprised. In fact, in Denna's version, "Selitos was a tyrant, an insane monster who tore out his own eye in fury at Lanre’s clever trickery." They agree on a point, Selitos was tricked. He did not see this coming.

I'm pretty convinced, but it has some disturbing repercussions. Selitos and Aleph are definitely shapers. I think someone else noted that these identified powerful namers from the war are shown doing stuff that looks suspiciously like shaping: changing Haliax, changing Tehlu, rez'ing Lanre, stealing the moon.

I keep coming back to other weird points, too. The beast with scales of black iron wasn't Faen, unless it was in continual pain and the Fae around it hated life constantly. Lanre fought it and slew it at the cost of his own life. and it really seems like a draccus, and those are mortal creatures that still exist. Tehlu & Pals "leave this world behind, to better serve it" and "disappear forever from mortal sight." They're clearly active in the Mortal, so what world did they leave behind? Coming back to Bast, why does he refer to the betrayal of Myr Tariniel? He's Faen. If it was in the Mortal, he benefitted. And so, according to Felurian, the Mortal brought war to Faen when Faen stole the moon. Was the war waged there? Were all eight cities Faen? Shehyn's story notes that not only did the sky change, the land cracked as well. Does that explain how Murella could be in Faen following the theft of the moon?

The mostly sympathetic Fae like Bast and Felurian don't seem to approve of Iax and the Creation War, so perhaps the Fae deeply regret the actions that their side took back then.

#393 Nisheeth

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 04:27 AM

Coming back to Bast, why does he refer to the betrayal of Myr Tariniel? He's Faen. If it was in the Mortal, he benefitted. And so, according to Felurian, the Mortal brought war to Faen when Faen stole the moon. Was the war waged there? Were all eight cities Faen?


About Bast, two guesses:
1) He was speaking from a point of view of the mortals, as Kvothe, and Chronicler would have considered that betrayal something that dameged their side.

2)He is not specifying that the betrayal was good or bad (he was implying that it was bad), but it may well be just to point out that Lanre would never have betrayed Myr Tariniel, but after speaking with Cthaeh, he even did that...

#394 unJon

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 08:36 AM

Thistlepong, brilliant speculation. Love it.

#395 lanceschaubert

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 03:14 PM

Does that explain how Murella could be in Faen following the theft of the moon?


Fairly well, in my opinion. Great finds, thistle, as always.

#396 thistlepong

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 01:49 AM

Relevant text:

The similarity between the stone Selitos gores himself with and the contents of the Loeclos Box.

Selitos stooped to pick up a jagged shard of mountain glass, pointed at one end.

“No. By the weight of it, perhaps something made of glass or stone.”


The similarity between the Rhinna tree and the Loeclos Box.

It was like smoke and spice and leather and lemon.

What’s more, it seemed to be a spicewood. It smelled faintly of . . . something.A familiar smell I couldn’t quite put my finger on. I lowered my face to its surface and breathed in deeply through my nose, something almost like lemon.


And it fits this so well:

“Stick by the Maer and he will lead you to their door.” The Cthaeh gave a thin, dry chuckle. “Blood, bracken, and bone, I wish you creatures had the wit to appreciate me. Whatever else you might forget, remember what I just said. Eventually you’ll get the joke. I guarantee. You’ll laugh when the time comes.”


Maer to Meluan to Loeclos to releasing the founder of the Amyr (assuming he opens the box) who happens to be the Cthaeh, free to pursue his agenda and plague ship folks at will.

I reckon the "bad turn" Cinder did him involved the initial binding.

We've got a good idea who the Seven are, but no idea what they're up to. And we have no idea who the Amyr (either version) are, but loads of details about what they got up to. The original mission statement was to troll the Chandrian. That's what they called the greater good. In the last millennium, in association with the Tehlin Church, they ground most of the known world beneath their boots, along the way condemning anyone with a knack to death along with Ruh and tinkers, razed the most ancient center of learning in the four corners, eradicated histories, outlawed magic, demonized Fae, and imposed their language, law, and dogma. Tehlu & Pals don't look any better in this context, of course. But stripped of any artificial emotion, in Trapis's story Tehlu beats everyone, offering a little succor but not too much to those who line up to be beaten.

In effect, the Amyr cowed and disarmed the population; eliminating the ability to fight Faen a second time.

#397 jurble

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 02:07 AM

Wait, why would the Amyr want to disarm the population?

I thought it was like:

Namers (Selitos,Lanre, etc) fight the Shapers (Iax and whoever). The Shapers lose and get sealed behind doors of stone. Lanre goes evil, becomes Halilax, and destroys civilization. Aleph turns a bunch of dudes into Angels to protect the world. Selitos founds the Amyr for vengeance. Why would the Amyr want to disarm and cow the population? Moreover, the Fae didn't even exist until Iax made it, and presumably wasn't populated until Iax lost, when did the world fight the Fae?

Edited by Cannot Remember, 26 February 2012 - 02:26 PM.


#398 jumbles

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 11:48 AM

I reckon the "bad turn" Cinder did him involved the initial binding.


I was thinking that maybe Cinder was the one Chandrian who didn't betray his city.

Wait, why would the Amyr want to disarm the population?


If you read thistlepong's post earlier on the page (#391), Selitos is suggested to be the Cthaeh.

#399 jurble

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 02:20 PM

Yeah, I read that, but I don't understand the Selitos-as-a-bad-guy and the Amyr-as-bad-guys either.

#400 unJon

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 04:16 PM

Lots on those topics sprinkled throughout earlier iterations of this thread. Worth reading.