401 replies to this topic

[Ipood]

Since the other one reached over 400 which I believe is the limit? It should be locked?

[Yallow]

Comments aren't locked, but I guess the thread was getting too long anyway.

Anyways, in the Wise Man's Fear didn't someone swear by the doors of stone? Perhaps it isn't too literal as in Lockless Door, just like Wise Man's fear wasn't literal.

[Kzad-bhat]

Things I'm convinced of:
Kvothe is a Lackless
Ambrose is not the dead King
Sim is not the dead King
Denna is not a whore (I have the least proof of that)

Things I'm convinced are unknowable at this point in the story:
Identity of the King Kvothe slays (and the reason)
What's behind the various doors
Who Denna's patron is
The goal of the Chandrian

[Yallow]

Kzad-bhat, on 11 June 2011 - 10:59 PM, said:

Things I'm convinced of:
Kvothe is a Lackless
Ambrose is not the dead King
Sim is not the dead King
Denna is not a whore (I have the least proof of that)

Things I'm convinced are unknowable at this point in the story:
Identity of the King Kvothe slays (and the reason)
What's behind the various doors
Who Denna's patron is
The goal of the Chandrian

I think you are probably right about the unknowable things, since there are too many possibe answers based on too few pieces of evidence. Kvothe as a Lackless has tons of evidence though.

I think Denna was a whore, if she isn't now. In the time of Kingkiller I think she is sort of a "kept woman" who relies on her beauty and charm to live. But she did tell the girl "sooner or later you're going to get ridden". That should imply some whorishness on her part, eh?

[Sylvester]

About the Kingkilling:

First, I think it was Thistlepong who stated in the previous thread that it was extremely unlikely that the murder/killing in Imre was the kingkilling. I fully agree with that, especially because of the fact that Kvothe used magic there, and most certainly naming ("Shattered" could hardly be done by sygaldry or sympathy). So why would magic require a king to be killed?
-The arguments "for fun" or "because it seemed better to him" don't stand. Kvothe would certainly not risk to stand before the iron law for malfeasance again...

So, it seems to me there are two options from now:
-The kingkilling took place in Imre, and the king is an aracanist, which forces Kvothe to desperate measures.
-The kingkilling did not take place in Imre, and the event in Imre is something else entirely, like the killing of Cinder/Ferule.

I don't really have any evidence for the second one, but I do have evidence against the first one; it's the entire dialogue between Kvothe and Bast ("What were you thinking"...up to "I like it" Chapter 3, tNotW) To me, Bast is asking Kvothe about his reasons for doing something with Folly, and he is less that enthusiastic when Kvothe wants to put the sword in the open...Perhaps because they are in Vintas and the king was killed with it?

I actually see two explanantions for that scene: the Kingkilling or the death of another extremely potent character, like Cinder for instance. Nevertheless, I find the Kingkilling more convincing here because of how Bast is afraid to put it in the open, which he would not be if the blade couldn't signify something concrete to eventual King's men.

Conclusion:
The kingkilling did not take place in Imre, the king was killed probably not with magic but with Folly, and it was something that probably wasn't entirely intended.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Kzad-bhat, on 11 June 2011 - 10:59 PM, said:

Things I'm convinced are unknowable at this point in the story:
Identity of the King Kvothe slays (and the reason)
What's behind the various doors
Who Denna's patron is
The goal of the Chandrian

I think the Chandrian's purpose is to bring the moon into the Fae. The seven have been around since the creation war(which seems to have involved fighting over the moon). Kvothe constantly talks about how stealing a piece of the moon would be easier than finding/defeating the Chandrian, and there is a good chance this is foreshadowing.

Think about the Fae, how the sun doesn't rise or set, how Kvothe can unknowling stumble past the Sithe and speak to the most dangerous thing in the universe, how time seems to pass and not pass all at once. Now think about Jax's house, the doors that lead to nowhere, the sideways stairs, how the entire house is misshapen. If we assume that the story about Jax is an allegory(and it's a kid's story, so why not), then I think the house is actually the Fae, and that when Jax draws the moon there, he's drawing it into the Fae. This falls in line with what Ferluian says about the moon moving in and out of the Fae.

If the Chandrian are the six remaining shapers+Larne now Haliax, their purpose would be to finish what they started and bring the moon into the Fae. I think they succeed, and that's why Scaerl are roaming the country side. Something obviously goes very wrong in DoS, and I think the Chandrian achieve their final purpose.

[Gaston de Foix]

Kzad-bhat, on 11 June 2011 - 10:59 PM, said:

Ambrose is not the dead King

Why?

[Kzad-bhat]

Gaston de Foix, on 12 June 2011 - 10:58 AM, said:

Why?

I don't think he's the king simply because of the succession... way too many people are in line, including his father.

I could be convinced he is the penitent king... but it just doesn't seem right that his school boy arch-rival is also the king that he kills.

[Gaston de Foix]

Kzad-bhat, on 12 June 2011 - 11:17 AM, said:

I don't think he's the king simply because of the succession... way too many people are in line, including his father.

I could be convinced he is the penitent king... but it just doesn't seem right that his school boy arch-rival is also the king that he kills.

if you could be convinced that he is the penitent king, then you could be convinced that everybody else in the line of succession does predecease him and the King Kvothe has killed would be his father.

I understand why people shy away from Ambrose as the King as a matter of plot. But if the evidence points that way, the evidence points that way.

[KyleLitke]

Gaston de Foix, on 12 June 2011 - 01:31 PM, said:

if you could be convinced that he is the penitent king, then you could be convinced that everybody else in the line of succession does predecease him and the King Kvothe has killed would be his father.

I understand why people shy away from Ambrose as the King as a matter of plot. But if the evidence points that way, the evidence points that way.

In fairness, it doesn't have to be Ambrose's father he killed, if Ambrose is the current King. I actually would prefer that not be the case, that's a little too duh ("Hey, I just killed Ambrose's father, the king! That means the new king is...UH OH!"), but he could kill someone earlier in the succession which ends up paving the way.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

KyleLitke, on 12 June 2011 - 11:12 PM, said:

In fairness, it doesn't have to be Ambrose's father he killed, if Ambrose is the current King. I actually would prefer that not be the case, that's a little too duh ("Hey, I just killed Ambrose's father, the king! That means the new king is...UH OH!"), but he could kill someone earlier in the succession which ends up paving the way.

I think it much more likely for Kvothe to put the Maer on the throne. He's much higher in line, Kvothe's relationship with the Maer is much more interesting than with Ambrose(they hate each other...and pull pranks), and it would make for a much better story(imo).

And the Kingkilling won't happen in Irme. There is no logical reason for that to take place their. What if Kvothe accidentally killed Elodin while naming stone?

[Sylvester]

Dune, on 12 June 2011 - 11:34 PM, said:

I think it much more likely for Kvothe to put the Maer on the throne. He's much higher in line, Kvothe's relationship with the Maer is much more interesting than with Ambrose(they hate each other...and pull pranks), and it would make for a much better story(imo).

And the Kingkilling won't happen in Irme. There is no logical reason for that to take place their. What if Kvothe accidentally killed Elodin while naming stone?

Elodin? Now that's a cool theory I think no one had even thought of! It does seem logical: Elodin the only real Namer that we know of in the miles around, so...

But thinking about this gave me a new idea: let's imagine that the story in Imre was a naming duel. If so, we know that one of the two participants invoked the name of Stone...could it be Fela? So if K. did kill Fela that would fit with all the relevance collected on the Sim=dead king business, but for  different theory...

Another thought: the duel could be between Kvothe and another Master: they all know at least one name, don't they? So could it be Hemme? (I mean, he HAS to know a name, right?)

[Gaston de Foix]

Dune, on 12 June 2011 - 11:34 PM, said:

I think it much more likely for Kvothe to put the Maer on the throne. He's much higher in line, Kvothe's relationship with the Maer is much more interesting than with Ambrose(they hate each other...and pull pranks), and it would make for a much better story(imo).

And the Kingkilling won't happen in Irme. There is no logical reason for that to take place their. What if Kvothe accidentally killed Elodin while naming stone?

I considered the Maer. There's problems with this theory.

(1) the King is expressly described as the "Penitent King". From what we've seen of the Maer's personality it's hard to imagine him penitent.

(2)  One of the important political facts we are told is that the Penitent King is fighting rebels in Resavek and Meneras. If the Maer has united the throne of Vintas with his existing holdings, it's hard to imagine any part of Vintas in insurrection or the Maer having difficulties establishing his rule; the Maer would become, most likely, the most powerful monarch in the Four Corners. On the other hand, if it's not the Maer, and the Maer opposes the throne of Vintas, well that would explain a rebellion reasonably well. Remember we are discussing a rebellion here; not a war of conquest or retribution. It's the internal political of Vintas that are at play.

(3) it's possible to work out potential locations of Resavek and Menares, although I haven't done so yet. We know roughly where Newarre is. If we identify whose lands they fall in, we can identify the potential rebel.

[jumbles]

Hello, I’m a new member. First I’d like to say that I’m astounded by what you all have come up with. Good job!

I would like to add a few thoughts of my own that I did not already see discussed in these threads (though I’ll be honest and say that I only skimmed most of the threads).

1. Fehr is the rune for iron, Ule is a rune for binding, and Cinder’s Name is Ferule. But “Stercus is in thrall of iron” while Ferule is “chill and dark of eye.”

2. It’s interesting that Kvothe (unintentionally) first draws Auri to him with music, just as Iax/Jax drew nightjars (nocturnal birds) and then the moon to him with music.

3. I think Dagon may be the Chandrian that makes animals go wild. I think this because in WMF chapter 64, Kvothe’s “deep feral instincts” told him to run when Dagon’s eyes touched him.

4. I think Kvothe may continue his education in Yllish knots with Abenthy. I believe this because after his troupe is killed, Kvothe dreams that Abenthy teaches him “impossibly complex” sailors’ knots. Yll is an island so it makes sense that they would be sailors.

5. I think the beast Lanre fought at Drossen Tor was a draccus because it had black scales of iron, just like Kvothe’s draccus.

6. I think Kvothe may destroy the Eolian (possibly when he kills someone by the fountain). I think this because of two things Kvothe says in NotW. In chapter 54, after Stanchion says he could use someone else with Illien’s fire, Kvothe says he needs a place to burn. Near the beginning of chapter 56, in reference to thinking he hadn’t won his pipes, Kvothe narrated that “the earth would crack and swallow this glittering, self-important place before I would show a trace of despair.”

7. The name of copper may have been locked away like the moon’s name was. One of my friends came up with this idea and I don’t know if I believe it. But despite a lack of evidence I think it’s an interesting guess.

8. The Doors of Stone may lead to the underworld. This idea occurred to me because after the Chandrian killed his troupe Kvothe’s dreamt that his father sang his Chandrian song to his mother and him, so I wondered if Kvothe would end up hearing the song. Also interesting is when Fela thanks Kvothe for saving her from the fire, she says he was like Tarsus bursting out of hell.

9. In Hespe’s story about Jax, the third pack had a knot that he couldn’t open. According to the hermit, the knot says Jax “tore at it. Pricked it with a knife. Bit it” with his teeth. In a sense the hermit read it. Maybe it was an Yllish knot. Maybe there was something about Yllish knots (magic?) that Jax didn’t understand. And yes, I realize Yll probably didn’t exist back then, but maybe the knots and language did.

10. Both Lackless rhymes mention dreams, and Denna has dreams that make sleeping difficult.

11. In WMF chapter 10, Kote (as narrator) refers to Devi as a demon (probably metaphorically). Perhaps Devi is the “demon” he tricks to gain his heart’s desire.

Gaston de Foix, on 13 June 2011 - 04:05 AM, said:

(1) the King is expressly described as the "Penitent King". From what we've seen of the Maer's personality it's hard to imagine him penitent.

I could see the Maer as penitent in that he's sorry (officially at least) that he ever employed Kvothe. But I doubt he's the Penitent King.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Sylvester, on 13 June 2011 - 02:16 AM, said:

Elodin? Now that's a cool theory I think no one had even thought of! It does seem logical: Elodin the only real Namer that we know of in the miles around, so...

But thinking about this gave me a new idea: let's imagine that the story in Imre was a naming duel. If so, we know that one of the two participants invoked the name of Stone...could it be Fela? So if K. did kill Fela that would fit with all the relevance collected on the Sim=dead king business, but for  different theory...

Another thought: the duel could be between Kvothe and another Master: they all know at least one name, don't they? So could it be Hemme? (I mean, he HAS to know a name, right?)

That's really all the support I have for it. I was trying to think of someone that could rival Kvothe with naming, and Elodin seems to be the best answer. As far as Master's knowing names, iirc, Elodin, Dal, and Kilven all have mentioned knowing names. I think.

And the person Kvothe kills in Irme is referred to as him in the NotW. I think this hurts Fela's case since she is very obviously a woman.

Gaston de Foix, on 13 June 2011 - 04:05 AM, said:

I considered the Maer. There's problems with this theory.

(1) the King is expressly described as the "Penitent King". From what we've seen of the Maer's personality it's hard to imagine him penitent.

(2)  One of the important political facts we are told is that the Penitent King is fighting rebels in Resavek and Meneras. If the Maer has united the throne of Vintas with his existing holdings, it's hard to imagine any part of Vintas in insurrection or the Maer having difficulties establishing his rule; the Maer would become, most likely, the most powerful monarch in the Four Corners. On the other hand, if it's not the Maer, and the Maer opposes the throne of Vintas, well that would explain a rebellion reasonably well. Remember we are discussing a rebellion here; not a war of conquest or retribution. It's the internal political of Vintas that are at play.

(3) it's possible to work out potential locations of Resavek and Menares, although I haven't done so yet. We know roughly where Newarre is. If we identify whose lands they fall in, we can identify the potential rebel.

1. You're correct about the Maer's personality, penitent doesn't seem to fit.

2. We really don't know enough about the internal politics of Vintas to guess which cities would side with the Maer if he rebelled. Or which cities would rebel if he had the throne. Regardless it doesn't seem like the Maer is looking to rebel against Rodrick.

3. We could really use a more detailed map...

[Gaston de Foix]

Dune, on 13 June 2011 - 11:02 AM, said:

That's really all the support I have for it. I was trying to think of someone that could rival Kvothe with naming, and Elodin seems to be the best answer. As far as Master's knowing names, iirc, Elodin, Dal, and Kilven all have mentioned knowing names. I think.

And the person Kvothe kills in Irme is referred to as him in the NotW. I think this hurts Fela's case since she is very obviously a woman.



1. You're correct about the Maer's personality, penitent doesn't seem to fit.

2. We really don't know enough about the internal politics of Vintas to guess which cities would side with the Maer if he rebelled. Or which cities would rebel if he had the throne. Regardless it doesn't seem like the Maer is looking to rebel against Rodrick.

3. We could really use a more detailed map...

I agree about the detailed map.

on 2, I agree with you that we can't predict what cities would rebel with the Maer if he chose. But the notion that the Maer Alveron becomes King of Vintas and then has difficulty putting down rebellions is hard to stomach.

It's not true to say we don't know enough about the internal politics of Vintas to figure this thing out. What's true to say is that we have a jigsaw with a third of pieces missing and no map of how the thing should fit together. I do think, at least in political terms, we can figure out what happened with a little of luck and guesswork.

[williamjm]

Gaston de Foix, on 13 June 2011 - 04:05 AM, said:

I considered the Maer. There's problems with this theory.

(1) the King is expressly described as the "Penitent King". From what we've seen of the Maer's personality it's hard to imagine him penitent.

I agree that the Maer would have to believe he was responsible for something catastrophic before he'd start to feel penitent. However, there are plenty of indications that something catastrophic has happened.

[Damon]

williamjm, on 13 June 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:

I agree that the Maer would have to believe he was responsible for something catastrophic before he'd start to feel penitent. However, there are plenty of indications that something catastrophic has happened.

I believe it may still be possible for Ambrose to be the Penitent King, because the very name implies that this King has taken some actions that he is now publicly ashamed of, similar to Henry II of England.

Ambrose could come to power after the succession line is cleared, claiming he is reformed from his obvious character flaws.

I am not sure what weight to give to Kvothe's lack of support for this Penitent King, although it seems possible that whatever the King is Penitent about isn't something Kvothe believes.

It could be just as easily the Maer, which seems to resolve for me Kvothe's relative place in the line of succession.  If he is in fact the son of the Lackless heir, illegitimate or not, could not that put him in ADVANCE of Ambrose in the line of succession?  Don't the Lackless family have a stronger claim than the Jakis family?

[williamjm]

Damon, on 13 June 2011 - 07:01 PM, said:

It could be just as easily the Maer, which seems to resolve for me Kvothe's relative place in the line of succession.  If he is in fact the son of the Lackless heir, illegitimate or not, could not that put him in ADVANCE of Ambrose in the line of succession?  Don't the Lackless family have a stronger claim than the Jakis family?

The Lacklesses are ahead of the Jakis family in the line of succession, but since Kvothe is illegitimate and his mother was disinherited he is nowhere in the line of succession.

[unJon]

@Jumbles, welcome.  While others are busy fighting about succession, I just wanted to pipe in to say those are some excellent thoughts and many of them I have not seen in any of the threads.