401 replies to this topic

[Gaston de Foix]

two_by_two, on 27 June 2011 - 05:30 PM, said:

And he ended up using the wax for mommets and the knife for killing all those bandits.

hmm...aren't these examples just gun on the mantelpiece moments?

[Werthead]

I quite enjoyed TWMF, but I found this guy's take on it to be quite amusing.

I do think he might have missed some of the subtler and more subversive elements though.

[unJon]

Gaston de Foix, on 28 June 2011 - 01:31 AM, said:

hmm...aren't these examples just gun on the mantelpiece moments?

I don't think so.  It's not just foreshadowing, it's showing a theme of the Tinker knowing what will be useful for the hero on his journey and the hero disagreeing (to his own detriment).  Either Tinkers actually have some sort of knowing ability that let's them know what is needed or Kvothe is conciously weaving this theme into his story because it fits with what is expected of Tinker's in stories.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Wert,

Wow, when people dislike this book they really dislike this book.  However, I can't tell if this reviewer is defending the sparkly vampire series or damning the KKC for being too like the sparkly vampire series.

[mghackett]

This may have been discussed, but does anyone else think the Chandrian, specifically Cinder, probably crossed path's with Cthaeh in the past and may have someone bested him. A few reasons I think this might be possible.

First:
Cthaeh says "Maybe this Cinder did me a bad turn once". What could that have been? Somehow working outside of Cthaeh's plans? Using the knowledge from Cthaeh, but still changing the future in a way Cthaeh didn't intend?

Second:
Sithe

Why would the Sithe be after the Chandrian if they hadn't interacted with the Cthaeh? The Sithe seem to be solely involved with stopping Cthaeh, and eliminating those who had contract with the tree. Perhaps a few of the Chandrian, or at least Cinder, interacted with it.

Finally,
How did Kvothe get away Cthaeh without the Sithe stopping him? Perhaps they were after the Chandrian and left Cthaeh for the time being, until they caught up with the Chandrian?

This may have been discussed, but I didn't notice it on the boards.

[Wras]

Oh my god that review. I'm unabashed in my love for the series but this, and the other extremely scathing critical review have been right on the money.

Quote

I'm really not sure what to say about Denna. Kvothe meets her early in the first book, and then she's in and out of his life like the wind (oh do you see)

I just lost it at this point.

[williamjm]

Wras, on 29 June 2011 - 02:39 PM, said:

Oh my god that review. I'm unabashed in my love for the series but this, and the other extremely scathing critical review have been right on the money.

I did enjoy the book a lot but I find it hard to really disagree with most of his complaints.

One thing that isn't mentioned that I think does make Kvothe's general awesomeness a bit easier to tolerate is that thanks to the framing story we know that despite all his many talents the end of the story is a tragedy. Rothfuss does also point out quite a few flaws in Kvothe's character, he does have a tendency to be both arrogant and foolhardy and I suspect that those two traits might contribute a lot to the tragedy.

Quote

Wow, when people dislike this book they really dislike this book. However, I can't tell if this reviewer is defending the sparkly vampire series or damning the KKC for being too like the sparkly vampire series.

I think it is probably the latter, although I'm not sure the Twilight comparison is really justified by the review. He does seem to be partially judging the book negatively because of what other people are saying about it, which does seem a bit unfair.

[Wras]

One of the more interesting things about Kvothe is that, due to how much energy he puts into what he does, when he screws up he really screws up.

For example, brutally murdering the group of fake Ruh is going to have serious consequences, which we haven't seen yet. And by the time he gets back to the University and he's whoring around, Fela points out (I think; been a while since my WMF read) that he's just sort of going through his encounters, brief and hollow, and he still doesn't have Denna.

I was a little annoyed by the Felurian part, and there are a few instances where Kvothe just uses his wits to get out of a situation just because he was tired of waiting for the plot. But other than that, his acclaim and vast array of skills don't seem to be doing him any good. He's awesome at things, but he's not done them.

And as you pointed out williamjm, we get to see the 'end' of his path, which does go a long way to justifying his rise in power.

I just started re-reading the Name of the Wind. I couldn't make sense of much being thrust into the world the first time around, but it's a whole new experience starting over. Much more enjoyable.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I think it is pretty clear that Bredon is master Ash.  When he's talking to Kvothe early in their friendship he mentions teaching a "foreigner" about the ring customs.  I suspect that's Denna.  Then when Denna disappears during Melurian's courtship it happens to coincide with Bredon's absence.  I want to know what Bredon's relationship is with the Chandrian.

[williamjm]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on 29 June 2011 - 06:13 PM, said:

I think it is pretty clear that Bredon is master Ash.  When he's talking to Kvothe early in their friendship he mentions teaching a "foreigner" about the ring customs.

I might be misremembering, but isn't Kvothe himself the foreigner he is referring to there? Bredon is being polite by not explicitly mentioning Kvothe's obvious ignorance of the ring customs.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

William,

I think he mentions "another" foreigner.

[two_by_two]

williamjm, on 29 June 2011 - 06:32 PM, said:

I might be misremembering, but isn't Kvothe himself the foreigner he is referring to there? Bredon is being polite by not explicitly mentioning Kvothe's obvious ignorance of the ring customs.

I also read it as Bredon was merely stepping around the fact that Kvothe didn't know about the customs, not that he was teaching someone else.

Another request for our foreign-language readers, gods bless you for your help: How does this part read in another language?

Quote

"Just tell me when I hit one you like ... Federick the Flippant. Frank. Feran. Forue. Fordale."

From what I recall, this is the primary basis for the Ash = Cinder theory. Feran, Forue, Fordale all sound awfully similar to, and may be converging on, the name Ferule (aka Cinder). Does PR change around the words "flippant" and "Frank" to fit better in another language? It seems to me that if he chooses other words beginning with F here, that may lend credence to Ash = Cinder. It should also probably be noted that both Federick and Frank are both fairly normal-sounding English names, whereas Feran, Forue, and Fordale are not (although, of course, in this world, people's names are not really that standard).

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Something else just occurred to me.  No one scoffs when Kvothe describes the Chandrian attack on his troupe or the Chandrian attack on the Mauthen farm.   Given the way most react to the Chandrian in Kvothe's story isn't that odd?  Shouldn't Chronicler scoff and demand truth when Kvothe talks about the Chandrian?  Why didn't he?  What if Haliax is the "Penitent King"?

[Sci-2]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on 30 June 2011 - 01:42 PM, said:

Something else just occurred to me.  No one scoffs when Kvothe describes the Chandrian attack on his troupe or the Chandrian attack on the Mauthen farm.   Given the way most react to the Chandrian in Kvothe's story isn't that odd?  Shouldn't Chronicler scoff and demand truth when Kvothe talks about the Chandrian?  Why didn't he?  What if Haliax is the "Penitent King"?

Since Chronicler knows Skarpi, I figure he's at least somewhat in the know about such things. I wonder if Kvothe will even scratch a Chandrian by the end of the third book - though we know so little of them, nor do we know who will be on his side. Still, if Felurian fears them the odds aren't good even if Haliax isn't around.

[Lily Valley]

Werthead, on 28 June 2011 - 03:36 PM, said:

I quite enjoyed TWMF, but I found this guy's take on it to be quite amusing.

I do think he might have missed some of the subtler and more subversive elements though.

"after the utterly facepalm-worthy faery sequence"-Daniel Hemmens

OHO!  I am still laughing about that!  Thank you Werthead!

In all fairness, Patrick Rothfuss is a true master of the english language.  The comparison to sparkly vampire series is unfair by literary standards.  Bella Swan is no Kvothe.  In addition, the abuse of the phrase "exquisite perfection" caused all of the parents who suffered through that 4000 page series to start a support group called "Twilight Novels The Drinking Game."  The purple prose in the Twilight series is even funnier when read aloud.

The book did remind me of many mid-trilogy "marching around" books, traditionally there would have been a few battles and a magic weapon would have been found.  Perhaps in the case of the Kingkiller Chronicles it was Kvothe's bedroom skills that will defeat the Chandrian.  In that case, I'm glad he's ready.

[two_by_two]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on 30 June 2011 - 01:42 PM, said:

Something else just occurred to me.  No one scoffs when Kvothe describes the Chandrian attack on his troupe or the Chandrian attack on the Mauthen farm.   Given the way most react to the Chandrian in Kvothe's story isn't that odd?  Shouldn't Chronicler scoff and demand truth when Kvothe talks about the Chandrian?  Why didn't he?  What if Haliax is the "Penitent King"?

"This from Devan Lochees who agreed not to interrupt or change a single word of the story he is recording."
NOTW Chapter 73: Interlude - Obedience

Even if Chronicler doesn't believe in the Chandrian, he wouldn't interrupt Kvothe's story. Plus he is Chronicler, after all. It's his job to hunt down the truth behind myths, whether that be dragons or Chandrian.

[Screaming Turkey Reborn]

Werthead, on 28 June 2011 - 03:36 PM, said:

I quite enjoyed TWMF, but I found this guy's take on it to be quite amusing.

I do think he might have missed some of the subtler and more subversive elements though.

That was brilliant. I couldn't agree more with this review.

[Sylvester]

Quote

Another request for our foreign-language readers, gods bless you for your help: How does this part read in another language?

Quote
"Just tell me when I hit one you like ... Federick the Flippant. Frank. Feran. Forue. Fordale."



From what I recall, this is the primary basis for the Ash = Cinder theory. Feran, Forue, Fordale all sound awfully similar to, and may be converging on, the name Ferule (aka Cinder). Does PR change around the words "flippant" and "Frank" to fit better in another language? It seems to me that if he chooses other words beginning with F here, that may lend credence to Ash = Cinder. It should also probably be noted that both Federick and Frank are both fairly normal-sounding English names, whereas Feran, Forue, and Fordale are not (although, of course, in this world, people's names are not really that standard).

Two_by_two, I won't be able to connect for a week or even more, and I can't check now, so I can't tell you for sure about the name-searching business. But in my opinion, the French translators will keep exactly all the words as they are: indeed, "Flippant" is even a word in french slang, and the other names are quite common too. And there is a propension in French fantasy translations (not just tNotW) to keep original names, even if they sound English/Foreign.

Another small find that I haven't seen mentioned so far: I rememeber people wondering about the mysterious enemy of the Creation War, for example at the Drossen Tor. Well, I have found in WMF a few names of the enemy's warriors. It is in Ademre, when Kvothe is learning his sword's Atas. (p822, Chapter 125):

Quote

Next came Finol[...]She herself slew two daruna, then was killed by gremmen at the Drossen Tor

So, any etymological findings to make? Maybe gremmen=shamblemen somehow?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

two_by_two, on 30 June 2011 - 05:26 PM, said:

"This from Devan Lochees who agreed not to interrupt or change a single word of the story he is recording."
NOTW Chapter 73: Interlude - Obedience

Even if Chronicler doesn't believe in the Chandrian, he wouldn't interrupt Kvothe's story. Plus he is Chronicler, after all. It's his job to hunt down the truth behind myths, whether that be dragons or Chandrian.

Execellent point.  However, why didn't he raise the question later?

[two_by_two]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on 01 July 2011 - 06:51 AM, said:

Execellent point.  However, why didn't he raise the question later?

This is very wild speculation, but it is a possible explanation for this.

Perhaps Kvothe kills one or more of the Chandrian in plain sight ("I saw where you killed him. The cobblestones were shattered. etc.), one that is easily recognizable as a Chandrian, probably Cinder. If a lot of people see this, the word could get out that the Chandrian are real and Kvothe killed one... although "Kvothe Chandrian-slayer" seems more impressive than "Kvothe Kingkiller". Alternatively, it's possible that the Chronicler has run across the Chandrian himself at one point, or at least some conclusive evidence that they exist.