401 replies to this topic

[Damon]

williamjm, on 13 June 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:

The Lacklesses are ahead of the Jakis family in the line of succession, but since Kvothe is illegitimate and his mother was disinherited he is nowhere in the line of succession.

Hi williamjm,

I don't remember anything in either book that addresses legitimacy and inheritance of titles, so I think it is still up to PR to decide how this might work out.  Since no one in the story "knows" that Kvothe is a Lackless (and aren't a lot of us going to feel extra foolish if that doesn't turn out to be true), it can't officially be an issue yet in the story line.

It is unlikely in any event.  But just think how great it would be to have Ambrose realize that this guy he has been crapping on all this time could turn out to be his KING!  Massive puckerage.

[jumbles]

unJon, on 13 June 2011 - 07:23 PM, said:

@Jumbles, welcome.  While others are busy fighting about succession, I just wanted to pipe in to say those are some excellent thoughts and many of them I have not seen in any of the threads.  

Thanks for the welcome unJon.

Also...

jumbles, on 13 June 2011 - 07:35 AM, said:

11. In WMF chapter 10, Kote (as narrator) refers to Devi as a demon (probably metaphorically). Perhaps Devi is the “demon” he tricks to gain his heart’s desire.

I forgot to say that in WMF chapter 23, Simmon specifically referred to Devi as "Demon Devi."

[GM Pierce]

Damon, on 13 June 2011 - 07:01 PM, said:

I believe it may still be possible for Ambrose to be the Penitent King, because the very name implies that this King has taken some actions that he is now publicly ashamed of, similar to Henry II of England.

The term "Penitent" does not have to mean someone who feels bad about his actions. It could as well refer to someone imprisoned - as in beyond the Doors of Stone. Penitent and penitentiary have similar origins.

[Jezer]

Since no one else has really addressed Jumbles post

jumbles, on 13 June 2011 - 07:35 AM, said:

Hello, I’m a new member. First I’d like to say that I’m astounded by what you all have come up with. Good job!

I would like to add a few thoughts of my own that I did not already see discussed in these threads (though I’ll be honest and say that I only skimmed most of the threads).

1. Fehr is the rune for iron, Ule is a rune for binding, and Cinder’s Name is Ferule. But “Stercus is in thrall of iron” while Ferule is “chill and dark of eye.”

2. It’s interesting that Kvothe (unintentionally) first draws Auri to him with music, just as Iax/Jax drew nightjars (nocturnal birds) and then the moon to him with music.

3. I think Dagon may be the Chandrian that makes animals go wild. I think this because in WMF chapter 64, Kvothe’s “deep feral instincts” told him to run when Dagon’s eyes touched him.

4. I think Kvothe may continue his education in Yllish knots with Abenthy. I believe this because after his troupe is killed, Kvothe dreams that Abenthy teaches him “impossibly complex” sailors’ knots. Yll is an island so it makes sense that they would be sailors.

5. I think the beast Lanre fought at Drossen Tor was a draccus because it had black scales of iron, just like Kvothe’s draccus.

6. I think Kvothe may destroy the Eolian (possibly when he kills someone by the fountain). I think this because of two things Kvothe says in NotW. In chapter 54, after Stanchion says he could use someone else with Illien’s fire, Kvothe says he needs a place to burn. Near the beginning of chapter 56, in reference to thinking he hadn’t won his pipes, Kvothe narrated that “the earth would crack and swallow this glittering, self-important place before I would show a trace of despair.”

7. The name of copper may have been locked away like the moon’s name was. One of my friends came up with this idea and I don’t know if I believe it. But despite a lack of evidence I think it’s an interesting guess.

8. The Doors of Stone may lead to the underworld. This idea occurred to me because after the Chandrian killed his troupe Kvothe’s dreamt that his father sang his Chandrian song to his mother and him, so I wondered if Kvothe would end up hearing the song. Also interesting is when Fela thanks Kvothe for saving her from the fire, she says he was like Tarsus bursting out of hell.

9. In Hespe’s story about Jax, the third pack had a knot that he couldn’t open. According to the hermit, the knot says Jax “tore at it. Pricked it with a knife. Bit it” with his teeth. In a sense the hermit read it. Maybe it was an Yllish knot. Maybe there was something about Yllish knots (magic?) that Jax didn’t understand. And yes, I realize Yll probably didn’t exist back then, but maybe the knots and language did.

10. Both Lackless rhymes mention dreams, and Denna has dreams that make sleeping difficult.

11. In WMF chapter 10, Kote (as narrator) refers to Devi as a demon (probably metaphorically). Perhaps Devi is the “demon” he tricks to gain his heart’s desire.




I could see the Maer as penitent in that he's sorry (officially at least) that he ever employed Kvothe. But I doubt he's the Penitent King.

3. I think it's unlikely that Dagon is that Chandrian since the book mentions him losing an ear to Caudicus. Given Cinder's reaction to the arrowshot, I don't imagine it'd be easy to harm a Chandrian. True, Caudicus was an arcanist, and the injury probably involved magic. Nonetheless, there's no reason to consider that a Chandrian would be the lapdog for a human noble. Or weak enough to be harmed by any random arcanist.

4. I particularly like this possibility. Good one.

6. Two examples of possible foreshadowing isn't compelling evidence for me.

8. There's nothing really suggesting that there's an underworld in Kvothe's world. Also, I don't really see how your second sentence would lead to you considering the idea. It seems unrelated.

9. That's interesting to consider.

11. That is a possibility. She seems to be referred to as a demon. Also, if his "heart's desire" was a lute, I could see him temporarily giving it to Devi as collateral. If his "heart's desire" is any type of object, I could see Devi making him use give it up as collateral if he needed to borrow more money for something.
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On another note, has anyone thought over the title of the book, and why?
It's called the Wise Man's Fear. We know that according to the book, it's supposed to be "A sea in the storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentleman."

The night with no moon obviously refers to what Felura told him in the fae. Those are the times you can accidentally cross over to the fae without knowing. Or something like that. She may have even in fact used the phrase "a wise man fears". (Can't remember)

The anger of a gentleman refers to Kvothe. Kvothe is always described as having those moments when his eye seems to change color, and his anger's brimming right near the edge. This might be what his Adem teacher kept seeing in him.
I think this most specifically refers to that. Kvothe is gentle, but his teacher said she was troubled by a darkside she noticed in him despite his gentle personality. Look at what Kvothe did to the fake Edema Ruh troupe, I'm assuming that "anger of a gentleman" also alludes to that.

A sea in the storm. This one I'm not too sure about.
On one hand, Kvothe did get shipwrecked and lose all his possessions at sea. So, it might be partly referring to that. However, that chapter's short and quick. Not much detail, and its really a trivial event in the whole scheme of the plot.Sur
The only other thing I can think about is Devi. She says specifically her Alar is like a sea in the storm. However, their fight is brief. Their fight was ultimately inconsequential. They made up. She beat him.
I don't see how she'd be important enough to be connected to what he decided to title the book on.

I'm really confused about the significance of the sea in the storm.

[thistlepong]

Welcome to the discussion, jumbles.  I think folk have addressed some of those around here, but 2,6, and 7 (thank your friend) are pretty keen.  I noticed the fehr+ule bit on the Tor site a few days ago and confess I don't know what to do with it.  I started to reply to 8 and realized it wove way too deeply into other things to go into at the moment.  Suffice to say my assumption has been that Faen is the underworld most of the stories refer to, but an actual land of the dead makes both Lanre and the draugar interesting in a wholly different way.

There's some things folk thinking about Vintic rank might want to keep in mind.  First, Alveron is a Vintish subject, plenary powers or no.  He ranks in the peerage and collects taxes for Roderic.  Had he died unwed, his holdings would have become the property of the crown.  Second, everything indicates inheritance is gender-neutral.  That Duchess Samista and Meluan Lackless stood in line for the throne is plenty of evidence, but Sim ticking off "the royal family" indicates every member has a shot, including the queen and any daughters.  Third, Meluan made a significant jump via marriage; implying, of course, that should a Calanthis daughter exist, anyone down the line could move up by wedding her.  Ambrose, for example, could hop to 4th without killing anyone.  Fourth, and I think Gaston pointed this out, prince regent may be a granted title indicating dominion over one of four Vintic Farrels.  Baron Jakis could be appointed Prince Regent over the Southern Farrel following Alaitis's death, placing him before Alveron.  Finally, expressing regret in a public forum and maybe, say, embracing the Tehlin church is really all one need do to become The Penitent King.  Anyone in the line of succession could do that.

Kvothe is bloodless.  But even if he's Netalia's bastard whelp, the Lackless family disowned her.  We should assume that includes disinheritance along with social renunciation.  If it's not binding under the Iron Law, he'd still need a sponsor to verify his identity and validate his claim; and everyone who could do so would ironically have to be dead for him to inherit the throne.  "I am Edema Ruh down to the center of my bones."

If we're correct and it's a Vintish King Kvothe Kills, I can't see any reason why one inheritor over another invites more or fewer rebels.  Whomever comes to power does so under at least vaguely suspicious circumstances, potentially outmaneuvering someone else.  I'd also hesitantly add that the existence of rebels  does not preclude external war.  It's worth noting that folk taking up arms under heavy taxation is mentioned in several contexts.

Not BS
Dune, that's a pretty neat idea about the purpose of the Chandrian.  If you're right, though, then they do (did?) not succeed.  The moon's still moving in the frame story.

Possibly BS
The stones by the fountain could also shatter when:

• A drunk artificer inscribes them with ule and doch and they tear themselves apart
  
• Haliax shouts, just like in "Lanre Turned" (re: Cob's demon made of shadows that Kvothe summons in Imre)
  
• Fela shouts, breaking the stones and scarring Kvothe all over after he cuts Sim down

This gave me a chuckle^{from DM Fantasy Interview: Patrick Rothfuss}

Quote

James:

And when did you learn the truth that man-mothers aren’t real?

Pat:

What makes you think they are real?

It's amazing to me that people end up getting hung up on that aspect of that book. People believe crazy shit. That's what a culture is: the crazy shit people believe.

Of course, the key is that sometimes they aren't the crazy ones. Sometimes their ideas are the right ones and they only seem strange to us because of what we were taught when we were young....

[Spaceman Hobbes]

I couldn't remember if the moon was ever mentioned in the present day story line or not.

[Gaston de Foix]

jumbles, on 13 June 2011 - 07:35 AM, said:

Hello, I’m a new member. First I’d like to say that I’m astounded by what you all have come up with. Good job!

I would like to add a few thoughts of my own that I did not already see discussed in these threads (though I’ll be honest and say that I only skimmed most of the threads).

1. Fehr is the rune for iron, Ule is a rune for binding, and Cinder’s Name is Ferule. But “Stercus is in thrall of iron” while Ferule is “chill and dark of eye.”

2. It’s interesting that Kvothe (unintentionally) first draws Auri to him with music, just as Iax/Jax drew nightjars (nocturnal birds) and then the moon to him with music.

3. I think Dagon may be the Chandrian that makes animals go wild. I think this because in WMF chapter 64, Kvothe’s “deep feral instincts” told him to run when Dagon’s eyes touched him.

4. I think Kvothe may continue his education in Yllish knots with Abenthy. I believe this because after his troupe is killed, Kvothe dreams that Abenthy teaches him “impossibly complex” sailors’ knots. Yll is an island so it makes sense that they would be sailors.

5. I think the beast Lanre fought at Drossen Tor was a draccus because it had black scales of iron, just like Kvothe’s draccus.

6. I think Kvothe may destroy the Eolian (possibly when he kills someone by the fountain). I think this because of two things Kvothe says in NotW. In chapter 54, after Stanchion says he could use someone else with Illien’s fire, Kvothe says he needs a place to burn. Near the beginning of chapter 56, in reference to thinking he hadn’t won his pipes, Kvothe narrated that “the earth would crack and swallow this glittering, self-important place before I would show a trace of despair.”

7. The name of copper may have been locked away like the moon’s name was. One of my friends came up with this idea and I don’t know if I believe it. But despite a lack of evidence I think it’s an interesting guess.

8. The Doors of Stone may lead to the underworld. This idea occurred to me because after the Chandrian killed his troupe Kvothe’s dreamt that his father sang his Chandrian song to his mother and him, so I wondered if Kvothe would end up hearing the song. Also interesting is when Fela thanks Kvothe for saving her from the fire, she says he was like Tarsus bursting out of hell.

9. In Hespe’s story about Jax, the third pack had a knot that he couldn’t open. According to the hermit, the knot says Jax “tore at it. Pricked it with a knife. Bit it” with his teeth. In a sense the hermit read it. Maybe it was an Yllish knot. Maybe there was something about Yllish knots (magic?) that Jax didn’t understand. And yes, I realize Yll probably didn’t exist back then, but maybe the knots and language did.

10. Both Lackless rhymes mention dreams, and Denna has dreams that make sleeping difficult.

11. In WMF chapter 10, Kote (as narrator) refers to Devi as a demon (probably metaphorically). Perhaps Devi is the “demon” he tricks to gain his heart’s desire.




I could see the Maer as penitent in that he's sorry (officially at least) that he ever employed Kvothe. But I doubt he's the Penitent King.

welcome, Jumbles. Great first post!

I really liked your second idea. It strengthens the connection between Auri and the Moon, although we still have to work out a proper explanation for the relationship between the two. Clearly the moon affects her in some way, just as it affects people in the Rookery.

The name of copper...hmm. To be honest I think there must be a fundamental difference between the names of living things and names of forces or elements such as the wind or iron. All the signs point to the fact that the moon in Kvothe's world somehow straddles the two; she is both a force and a alive.

Dune, the moon is mentioned. Bast swears in NOTW by the ever-moving moon that if Chronicler leads Kvothe to despair, he will do various terrible things to him. We don't see the moon in the frame story, but there is no indication that the moon has disappeared from the night sky.

[Gaston de Foix]

thistlepong, on 14 June 2011 - 12:11 AM, said:

There's some things folk thinking about Vintic rank might want to keep in mind.  First, Alveron is a Vintish subject, plenary powers or no.  He ranks in the peerage and collects taxes for Roderic.  Had he died unwed,  Third, Meluan made a significant jump via marriage; implying, of course, that should a Calanthis daughter exist, anyone down the line could move up by wedding her.  Ambrose, for example, could hop to 4th without killing anyone.  Fourth, and I think Gaston pointed this out, prince regent may be a granted title indicating dominion over one of four Vintic Farrels.  Baron Jakis could be appointed Prince Regent over the Southern Farrel following Alaitis's death, placing him before Alveron.  Finally, expressing regret in a public forum and maybe, say, embracing the Tehlin church is really all one need do to become The Penitent King.  Anyone in the line of succession could do that.

If we're correct and it's a Vintish King Kvothe Kills, I can't see any reason why one inheritor over another invites more or fewer rebels.  Whomever comes to power does so under at least vaguely suspicious circumstances, potentially outmaneuvering someone else.  I'd also hesitantly add that the existence of rebels  does not preclude external war.  It's worth noting that folk taking up arms under heavy taxation is mentioned in several contexts.

one minor quibble, I think Prince Regents were appointed as such because they were close to the line of succession. If Baron Jakis is appointed Prince Regent of the southern farrel, I don't expect it to change his position in the line of succession. That being said, it's entirely possible that Ambrose will be highest ranked eligible male for the hand of Princess Ariel. Certainly the others are either female or wed; as a word of caution though, we aren't told who the Prince Regents for the other two farrels are.

it's possible external war is combined with internal rebellion; certainly the existence of the scrael implies something has gone wrong in terms of the boundary between Fae and the Four Corners.

There is a certain irony in the high taxes in Newarre to pay for the campaign against the rebels if the high taxes are to put down the rebellion against high-handed taxation.

One thing the Maer could be penitent about; Kvothe opening the Lackless door. This would explain the scrael, perhaps Meluan's death results? That would certainly make the Maer the Penitent King.

The door to the Amyr that the Cthaeh referred to must be the Lackless door, no other door is around that the Maer could lead Kvothe to. And it's clear opening the door is a bad idea.

[jumbles]

Jezer, on 14 June 2011 - 12:01 AM, said:

3. I think it's unlikely that Dagon is that Chandrian since the book mentions him losing an ear to Caudicus. Given Cinder's reaction to the arrowshot, I don't imagine it'd be easy to harm a Chandrian. True, Caudicus was an arcanist, and the injury probably involved magic. Nonetheless, there's no reason to consider that a Chandrian would be the lapdog for a human noble. Or weak enough to be harmed by any random arcanist.

8. There's nothing really suggesting that there's an underworld in Kvothe's world. Also, I don't really see how your second sentence would lead to you considering the idea. It seems unrelated.

3. Actually Dagon lost an eye (which seems to me like it would be easy to fake with an eye-patch).

8. The second sentence was meant to add more precedence to people going to hell and back (besides the obvious example of Lanre dying and coming back to life). Sorry I didn't make that clear. Whoops, that was the third sentence. The second sentence led me to the idea because it got me thinking of ways Arliden could sing the song to Kvothe even though he's dead.

thistlepong, on 14 June 2011 - 12:11 AM, said:

• Haliax shouts, just like in "Lanre Turned" (re: Cob's demon made of shadows that Kvothe summons in Imre)
  
• Fela shouts, breaking the stones and scarring Kvothe all over after he cuts Sim down

I like these ideas (especially the Fela one). I don't really believe them, but I like them.

Edited by jumbles, 14 June 2011 - 07:34 PM.

[thistlepong]

Gaston de Foix, on 14 June 2011 - 05:27 AM, said:

one minor quibble, I think Prince Regents were appointed as such because they were close to the line of succession. If Baron Jakis is appointed Prince Regent of the southern farrel, I don't expect it to change his position in the line of succession. That being said, it's entirely possible that Ambrose will be highest ranked eligible male for the hand of Princess Ariel. Certainly the others are either female or wed; as a word of caution though, we aren't told who the Prince Regents for the other two farrels are.

it's possible external war is combined with internal rebellion; certainly the existence of the scrael implies something has gone wrong in terms of the boundary between Fae and the Four Corners.

There is a certain irony in the high taxes in Newarre to pay for the campaign against the rebels if the high taxes are to put down the rebellion against high-handed taxation.

One thing the Maer could be penitent about; Kvothe opening the Lackless door. This would explain the scrael, perhaps Meluan's death results? That would certainly make the Maer the Penitent King.

The door to the Amyr that the Cthaeh referred to must be the Lackless door, no other door is around that the Maer could lead Kvothe to. And it's clear opening the door is a bad idea.

Good points.  I wasn't presenting that as the definitive end word on Vintic succession.  But we do know kind of a lot about it and the varied means of mobility within it.  I think the gut instinct of the first time reader is that Jakis is mass murdering his way to the throne.  It's noteworthy that that's not necessary.

It's kind of out of character.  I mean, Kvothe hates the guy.  And yet, even in this narrative he's telling us Ambrose isn't really like that.  And then there's the bit where Kvothe sees him with Denna: [i]Lamplight glittered on the gold brocade of his jacket, and his gloves were dyed the same dark, royal purple as his boots.  The color should have looked garish on him, but it didn't."^{WMFc15: Interesting Fact}  It's only one among many flattering, if infuriating, descriptions of his rival, but he dresses him in the colors of a king and admits they fit.

I've come to think Ambrose wasn't responsible for the alley attack or the shipwreck.  I think the hand behind those events is Hemme.  It's based, at the moment, mostly on his biting comments duiring Kvothe's return interview.

I also think the most likely scenario for Alveron leading Kvothe to the Amyr's door is to bring him before their justice, or perhaps since some have suggested they're imprisoned, to lock him up.  That would be funny in a good ol' Cthaeh way.

[Gaston de Foix]

thistlepong, on 14 June 2011 - 09:15 AM, said:

I've come to think Ambrose wasn't responsible for the alley attack or the shipwreck.  I think the hand behind those events is Hemme.  It's based, at the moment, mostly on his biting comments duiring Kvothe's return interview.

I also think the most likely scenario for Alveron leading Kvothe to the Amyr's door is to bring him before their justice, or perhaps since some have suggested they're imprisoned, to lock him up.  That would be funny in a good ol' Cthaeh way.

I've often wondered that as well. In terms of the shipwreck, I think you may well be right.

Certainly Ambrose's absence from the university is a good reason to doubt his hand in the shipwreck, it's not as if he has a spy network and Kvothe only tells a handful of close friends that he is leaving the university for a term.

As for as the alley attack; Ch.25, Wrongful Apprehension WMF

"I paused, trying to decide if I wanted to get confirmation about something I’d suspected for some time. “Only that last term you put Ambrose Jakis in touch with a pair of men who have been known to kill people for money.”

Sleat’s expression remained impassive, his body loose and relaxed. But I could see a slight tension in his shoulders. Very little escapes me when I’m watching closely. “They say that, do they?”

....

"I nodded. “Anything else?”

“Only that you were cornered in an alley last term by two men who kill people for money. And despite the fact that they had knives and caught you quite unaware, you blinded one and beat the other senseless, calling down fire and lightning like Taborlin the Great.”

We looked at each other for a long moment. It was not a comfortable silence. “Did you put Ambrose in touch with them?” I asked at last.

“That,” Sleat said frankly, “is not a good question. It implies I discuss private dealings after the fact.” He gave me a flat look, no hint of a smile anywhere near his mouth or eyes. “Besides, would you trust me to answer honestly?”

I frowned.

“I can say, however, that because of those stories, nobody is much interested in taking that sort of job again,” Sleat said conversationally. “Not that there is much call for that sort of work around here to begin with. We’re all terribly civilized.”"

I've flirted with the notion of a certain amount of misdirection in NOTW in relation to Ambrose's  striking at Kvothe at the University. the pattern of trying to kill/beat up Kvothe by hiring assassins and then destroying his lute seems to veer from brutal too amateurish a little too quickly.

I have a rotten memory so not sure if I've mused out loud, but Hemme is obviously the first candidate for such a position. BUT, Hemme as a Master would be extraordinarily foolish to go to Sleat and Sleat more or less admits that he did in fact have something to do with the assassins. And as a dramatic reveal, Hemme is obviously on bad terms with Kvothe that it wouldn't work very well.

It's a slender enough reed to hang this surmise on, but Sleat's reaction does seem to imply it was Ambrose's doing, or at least he did have a role to play.

Maybe Ambrose and Hemme were acting in concert?

In relation to the Lackless Door, beyond the fascination with the Amyr that both Kvothe and the Maer share, it's possible it's sought out in order to cure some affliction of Meluan's, perhaps something that specifically interferes with her ability to sleep?

"There's a secret she's been keeping
She's been dreaming and not sleeping" (NOTW, pg.77)

[Gaston de Foix]

The more I think about this poem, the more I fail to understand it. When I first read it, I thought strange and mysterious info-dump. Now, I'm not so sure.

Seven things stand before
The entrance to the Lackless door.
One of them a ring unworn
One a word that is forsworn
One a time that must be right
One a candle without light
One a son who brings the blood
One a door that holds the flood
One a thing tight-held in keeping
Then comes that which comes with sleeping.

It seems clear that the poem isn't about those things physically before the Lackless door but rather the criteria which have to be fulfilled before entering the Lackless door (yes this is an obvious point).

When I first read the related poem in NOTW (pg. 77) before WMF came out I assumed Lady Lackless was a Chandrian because of the obvious reference to the number seven and the sinisterness of the song.

My operating assumption was that the Lackless family was the surviving family, one of whose members had become one of the Chandrian. Clearly that was hugely wrong.

We now know a great deal more about the Lackless family. But the repeated association with the number seven remains as does the question of what exactly their association with the door is. There are really two options. Either they are guardians (appointed or self-appointed) of some kind or they are heirs who were powerful enough to secure control of something very dangerous and have held on to it since. Other members of the Lackless family might have tried and failed to open the Lackless door. We know the family is ancient, perhaps even older than the lineage of the High King of Modeg.

On their own terms the poems don't particularly analyse well together.

1. ring unworn;

what could this be? Kvothe is gifted a wooden ring by Auri to keep secrets, but that ring is clearly for a separate purpose since the NOTW poem suggests that Lady Lackless keeps this ring under her black dress. Let's assume it's a family heirloom we haven't seen, though given the significance of rings in the chronicles, I assume there is much more to it. None of the rings Kvothe is reputed to wear in WMF fit.

2. word, unsworn "sharp word/not for swearing".

I've speculated this could be Caesura, which doesn't work very well. I'm stumped on anything else. Whatever it is, it's supposed to be in Lady Lackless' possession. Maybe it's the true name of the Amyr?

3. time that must be right

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that this has something to do with the movement of the moon. Maybe a night with no moon?

4. A candle without light/"Right beside her husband's candle"

the first part might conceivably be the candle Auri gifted to Kvothe which probably produces scents but not light. The second part was in NOTW referred to as sexual innuendo, but may refer to an actual candle.

5. son who brings the blood.

finally, something straightforward. That's Kvothe. They need a male who has Lackless blood.

6. one a door that holds the flood

There is a door that holds the flood BEFORE the Lackless door? This makes no sense.

Caudicus tell us (WMF, Ch 59, Purpose) “I’ve heard that on the oldest parts of the Lackless lands, in the oldest part of their ancestral estate, there is a secret door. A door without a handle or hinges.” He watched me to make sure I was paying attention. “There’s no way of opening it. It is locked, but at the same time, lockless. No one knows what’s on the other side.”

It's impossible for the door to be outdoors since people could use the obvious expedient of going around or blowing up what's next to it in order to find out what's behind it. So let's assume it's in an ancient bedchamber of some kind.

Still the existence of a door before the Lockless door is very troublesome. Let's assume that it literally holds the flood, i.e. the door is constructed to hold out an aquifer or something. I originally read it as a metaphor on PR's part, the door that held the flood was  the Lackless door itself, but (1) there are seven things before the Lackless door- remove the second door and you are left with six (2) the position in the rhyme is that this door is the sixth criteria, not even the seventh and final.

7.  Thing tight held in keeping.

Vague enough that it could be anything. It might conceivably be the contents of the Lackless box. It might be a secret or name that is revealed to her in dreams, though our most informed speculation about dreams is that they are sent by the Tehlu and his angels (see Kvothe's dream of knots, Nina's dream of the Chandrian).

If the whole wrestle an angel thing comes up with the door, that will make matters even murkier. But logically, the terrible thing Kvothe is supposed to have wrought, and his heart's desire, both seem at least connected with the Chandrian. If Kvothe finds out the Amyr were imprisoned as Thistle speculates, then his heart's desire might well be freedom for them in the hope they will aid his attempt to destroy the Chandrian.

8. BONUS requirement: Then comes that which comes with sleeping/

"She's been dreaming and not sleeping
On a road, that's not for traveling
Lackless likes her riddle raveling. "

the causation here is muddled. NOTW suggests that the dreams come before the door is the opened, the most recent rhyme that the dreams come in place of sleep and are the result of opening the door even. Making sense of them makes my head hurt. The best I can do is suggest that the dreams are taking her somewhere even more dangerous than Fae.

ok this is a post tremendously long on speculation, short on informed facts. But you know, this is thread VI. Everybody else feel free to jump in and take a shot. I haven't read the old threads recently, have we discussed this before?

Edited by Gaston de Foix, 14 June 2011 - 10:45 AM.

[jumbles]

@Gaston de Foix

I really like your #s 3 and 6. I hadn't thought of them before, but you've sold me on them. It makes perfect sense that #3 would mean the door can only be opened at a specific time. And for #6 I just assumed referred to the Lackless door itself, but I think you're right that the door that holds the flood is separate from the Lackless door. And the idea of it being a dam that keeps the Lackless door underwater is great. I don't think you implied that the Lackless door was underwater, but in that case, I'm just taking your idea of the door holding the flood one step further. Please correct if I'm wrong and that is what you were thinking.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Great post Gaston. Just a quick few quick thoughts.

#1, to prove her mastery over stone, Fela has to create a ring of stone. Elodin tells us that the most traditional path for a namer to follow is first discovering the name of the wind. If we assume that creating and wearing a ring is the traditional way of showing mastery of a name, then the ring unworn could be a ring of air(since air really can't be worn). Number #1 could suggest a namer will be the one to open the door.

#3, I really like the moonless night idea. And if a moonless night is required to open the door, we could assume that the door has some relation to the Fae.

#6 Maybe the flood is a metaphor for something? I think you're correct that there is a door before a door.

[Gaston de Foix]

Jumbles

"@Gaston de Foix

I really like your #s 3 and 6. I hadn't thought of them before, but you've sold me on them. It makes perfect sense that #3 would mean the door can only be opened at a specific time. And for #6 I just assumed referred to the Lackless door itself, but I think you're right that the door that holds the flood is separate from the Lackless door. And the idea of it being a dam that keeps the Lackless door underwater is great. I don't think you implied that the Lackless door was underwater, but in that case, I'm just taking your idea of the door holding the flood one step further. Please correct if I'm wrong and that is what you were thinking."

Dune, on 14 June 2011 - 03:32 PM, said:

Great post Gaston. Just a quick few quick thoughts.

#1, to prove her mastery over stone, Fela has to create a ring of stone. Elodin tells us that the most traditional path for a namer to follow is first discovering the name of the wind. If we assume that creating and wearing a ring is the traditional way of showing mastery of a name, then the ring unworn could be a ring of air(since air really can't be worn). Number #1 could suggest a namer will be the one to open the door.

#3, I really like the moonless night idea. And if a moonless night is required to open the door, we could assume that the door has some relation to the Fae.

#6 Maybe the flood is a metaphor for something? I think you're correct that there is a door before a door.

Jumbles,

That is a great idea. The idea of an underwater door isn't something that occurred to me, but it would be awesome if that is what it was. And you are right, the other door would in effect be a dam.

The other option which Dune mentioned, is that it's a metaphor. Thinking about it, this would explain the scrael and the skin dancers. There could be two doors, one which holds back the flood of Fae creatures, the other which opens into the realm of the Amyr.

I agree that being a Namer seems really important to opening the door in number 1. But in WMF Ch. 2, Holly, in the poem in which Kvothe's rings are described, the ring of air is described as "whisper thin" and Kvothe is described as wearing it.

It's possible that the ring unworn is the ring of wood Meluan gives Kvothe, Bredon describes it  (WMF, Ch 140).

"I slid the wooden ring onto my finger and made a fist. It was quite a good fit, actually.

“It’s not the sort of ring you wear,” Bredon said uncomfortably. “It’s quite the other sort of ring, actually.”

but I'm not myself sold that the answer is that straightforward. There is nothing about the wooden ring that implies mysterious or powerful properties.

[thistlepong]

Gaston mentioned an interplay between conventional and unexpected elements in the Kingkiller Chronicle at the the end of thread V.  I bring it up because the suggestions below contain both.  We take Kvothe Lackless for granted, for example, which makes me wonder about it.  Anyway, everything below comes with the standard BS warning.

ring unworn:not for wearing The Edema Ruh
"All of the Edema Ruh are one family," I explained.  "Like a closed circle."^{The Broken Circle}

word not for swearing/forsworn  Alaxel
"This is my doom upon you.  Your own name will be turned against you, that you shall have no peace."^{Lanre Turned}

time
What were their signs?  Thunder, the darkening of the moon.^{The Hidden City}

Inititally, those lines simply popped.  Now, having worked out a couple thousand years of history, where the power of Vint and the Lockless ebbed as Atur flowed, I can't help but think the reasonable complement for the Emprire is a temporal force aligned with another eternal party.

candle
I wonder if this isn't the moon itself in the latter poem.  How would it relate to to the complicated mess of a traveling moon and what that means vis-à-vis any assumptions we make about reality?  Does the moon in KKC reflect the sun?  In the earlier Commonwealth version, it could have implications regarding Kvothe's paternity...  

son
We have a potential alternative in the person of Aculeus Lackless.  We also face a sort of explosion of meanings if reject that this refers to Kvothe.

flood
I'm still keen on the Loeclos Box holding a section of scrael in it.  But Vintas has a river with a couple lakes along its length even on the map we get.  Who knows?  The section in the earlier poem shouts out a box with a stone in it.  

secret?
Comparing the poems this seems like the most obvious answer for the seventh thing.  It's also kind of archly determinist where the rest of the story seems messier.  Kvothe's secret doesn't seem worthy.  The purpose of the Chandrian seems too worthy.  Some familial goal of the Lockless seems too silent.

Are dreams #8 or the prize?

Wow.  That's incoherent.

Regarding an upcoming appearance, Pat posted this on his blog.  Since the second book has been out for a couple months now, I can finally answer questions about it during the Q&A, and maybe read a piece of it, too. I couldn’t do that during my tour for fear of spoilers.  A month ago, he refused to let audience members mention Felurian.

Edited by thistlepong, 15 June 2011 - 08:59 AM.

[Gaston de Foix]

It would be awesome if someone went to this reading of his and asked interesting questions.  

I've finally got around to reading the Tor Rereads of the Kingkiller Chronicles. Wow, they are a cornucopia of interesting thoughts and I would recommend people visit, although I still much prefer this forum.

Ring Not for wearing:

Given Pat's attention to detail, the difference between slim and slender and all of that, I am going to say that the ring not for wearing is still a ring that is wearable. The circle of the Edema Ruh is quite different and as far as I recollect, never explicitly called a ring, but who knows how literal or metaphorical the poem is?

With all this set up though, we're definitely going to see the Lackless door in the next book.

[thistlepong]

If it's actually Meluan's ring, is she actually fulfilling some requirement intentionally by delivering it to Kvothe?  Or is the rhyme more arch, a deterministic prophecy?

Notionally the Lackless poem has been around for years - at least eight - and it changes, the way folk tale does, over time and space.  I wonder if the commonalities might not be the heart, then?  They are seven things, Lackless, ring, door, word, candle , and sleeping.

[Gaston de Foix]

thistlepong, on 15 June 2011 - 11:10 AM, said:

If it's actually Meluan's ring, is she actually fulfilling some requirement intentionally by delivering it to Kvothe?  Or is the rhyme more arch, a deterministic prophecy?

Notionally the Lackless poem has been around for years - at least eight - and it changes, the way folk tale does, over time and space.  I wonder if the commonalities might not be the heart, then?  They are seven things, Lackless, ring, door, word, candle , and sleeping.

I think the summary of commonalities is brilliant. So taken together do these seven things together constitute a key?

I meant to say, about your theory of the scrael being in the lockless box, it works if the scrael are unique. But with the skin dancers and possibly other manner of fae creatures wandering into the four corners as well, they seem very much part of the "flood". I know we lack a taxonomy of the Fae and so do the characters in book, but I think what's in the box is more important than a hidden scrael.

Edited by Gaston de Foix, 15 June 2011 - 12:08 PM.

[thistlepong]

Gaston de Foix, on 15 June 2011 - 12:07 PM, said:

But with the skin dancers and possibly other manner of fae creatures wandering into the four corners as well, they seem very much part of the "flood".

Do you think, with those pagan rituals and all, that maybe Bredon learning to dance is more meaningful than we've been allowing for?