82 replies to this topic

[snowzombie]

Chief Smash, on 13 June 2011 - 09:34 PM, said:

Thanks very much for the oh so friendly reply.  Rest assured the feeling is mutual.  

Regardless of how he did it, I still very much prefer that he made his exit with his honor intact.

This show, and this story, is about those choices. Everything he'd done was noble and honorable, and it got him a cell in the dungeon. Between honor and death of his daughters, or dishonor and his daughters living - plus the prospect of living out the rest of his days with his son Jon - he was trying to do the right thing. He learned too late that being honest all the time isn't always the right thing.

[snowzombie]

I think people's reaction to Ned's death is in part informed by HBO's choice to cast him with the best known actor, and to lean heavily on his character/Sean Bean to market the show.

It's one thing for GRRM to make the decision to have the character killed. It tells you how his universe works - life is full of difficult choices, the good guys don't always win. I agree that having Ned up at the Wall is a tantalizing tease, but in thinking about the story I can no longer imagine how things might have been had Ned lived. I don't want to go into detail because this is a no spoiler thread, but rest assured newcomers - the story does not suffer when characters are subtracted from the narrative. There are more than enough compelling characters to go around. Lots of new characters are going to be introduced next season. (But I can also see how that might be frustrating as well, you do want one person to be your anchor.)

But these are all issues about theme and narrative. GRRM did what he did for his narrative and his story. HBO used Sean Bean to market the show because it was easy. Perhaps it would have seemed suspect if they didn't, because he is the best known actor on the show. They're marketing to an American audience and I think the only American actors are Peter Dinklage (Tyrion) and Jason Momoa (Drogo).

While HBO couldn't depart from the text of the book, they did have a hand in shaping fans' perception that Ned was the person they should identify with in the narrative. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I hope when the dust settles people can separate HBO's marketing decisions from GRRM's narrative choices.

[The Anti-Targ]

Actually a dead Ned makes the daughters better bargaining chips. To some extent Varys was tricking Ned into making a false confession because he saw Joff being legitimised through Ned as advancing the cause of stability. And Ned living even better because that would get Robb off the Lannister's backs.

If Ned had the ability to think clearly he would have realised that affirming Joff's incestuous bastardy probably wouldn't put Sansa in mortal danger, but it would guarantee that she'd never marry the turd-king. Sansa actually ends up suffering because she remains Joff's betrothed. Knowing the whole deal with noble hostages, you don't kill them on a whim because live hostages are effective shields, dead ones are like powder kegs, means Sansa and Arya are safe so long as Robb's a threat.

[MyniggaNed]

Spoiler

Lol "If they kill Drogo I'm done"  

Oh god...

Edited by Xray the Enforcer, 14 June 2011 - 05:21 AM.

[Xanderpanda]

Spoiler

MyniggaNed, on 14 June 2011 - 12:39 AM, said:

Lol "If they kill Drogo I'm done"  

Oh god...

loling hard at your display name

Edited by Xray the Enforcer, 14 June 2011 - 05:21 AM.

[citizenmilton]

Taintertots, on 13 June 2011 - 10:30 PM, said:

I have not read all of this thread, so if this has been said I'll remove the post...

Reason I have not read all of this thread is the spoilers..

Ditto.

So far, in the tiny increments I'm able to wander into this forum, it's a great place w/ really intelligent comments, but, the co-mingling of the bookspoilers and no-spoilers doesn't seem to be working - how dare a newbie suggest adjusting something structural with such little experience, but, I'm becoming afraid of this place!

Maybe after the crushing traffic boom with the new book's release, maybe after then and before season two of the HBO show, there might be a way to more clearly segment and keep the tv-first folks on safer ground?

[Xray the Enforcer]

citizenmilton, on 14 June 2011 - 04:41 AM, said:

Ditto.

So far, in the tiny increments I'm able to wander into this forum, it's a great place w/ really intelligent comments, but, the co-mingling of the bookspoilers and no-spoilers doesn't seem to be working - how dare a newbie suggest adjusting something structural with such little experience, but, I'm becoming afraid of this place!

Maybe after the crushing traffic boom with the new book's release, maybe after then and before season two of the HBO show, there might be a way to more clearly segment and keep the tv-first folks on safer ground?

Possibly. One of the reasons we can't clear spoilers right now is because the server keeps puking. Yesterday, I'd try to edit some asshole spoiler post (a couple in this thread, even) and I'd get the SQL error of doom.

One thing that would help is that if people would REPORT spoiler posts. (see that button in the lower left? That reports a post to all of the mods.) We can deal with things much more efficiently if one reports a post than if one is just waiting for a mod to happen into a thread.

[Xanderpanda]

Reading some of the comments on the various reviews and so many are going on about how they won't tune in next week. I find it hard to believe that after watching all season they won't at least tune in one more episode which is also the final just to see how it all turns out. I don't think it will hit numbers though if some choose not to return. In fact the shock and buzz thats been spreading like wildfire will probably increase the viewership to more then those the episode 'lost'.

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] FFS, people. This is a NO SPOILERS thread. I'm going to start banning those who can't follow simple instructions. That includes alluding to what's coming in Episode 10 with some half-spoilery LOL remark. [/mod]

[Vestrit]

this guy Larry is lame. Trying way too hard

That said, 'they killed my nigga Ned' is pretty awesome

[Cot]

Chief Smash, on 13 June 2011 - 09:34 PM, said:

Regardless of how he did it, I still very much prefer that he made his exit with his honor intact.

One day you may learn that life is not a song.

[Ser Lany Cassandra]

Chief Smash, on 13 June 2011 - 09:13 PM, said:

It may not be a throw away cheap death but to those of us new to the series it certainly feels that way.  I love Sean Bean as an actor so I'll compare his death to his other death in Fellowship of the Ring.  In that movie he betrayed his friends but redeemed himself in a valiant final stand.  He regained his honor and went out fighting.  In GoT he threw his honor away for, what looks to be so far, no reason at all.  It would have been better if he rose up and told the king where to stick the Iron Throne before telling the crowd "This is how a Stark dies!" while submitting to the headman with his honor intact.  Right now, Martin does indeed feel like a sadistic author to this Ice and Fire newbie.

What you are missing is that Ned was willing to compromise his honor for his family and

Spoiler

this is a CLUE about Jon.  Ned would lie to protect him for the love he bore his sister.

[Xxtayce]

Cot, on 14 June 2011 - 05:39 AM, said:

One day you may learn that life is not a song.

Oh, well played.

Spoiler

“Life is not a song, sweetling,” he’d told her. “You may learn that one  day to your sorrow.” In life, the monsters win, she told herself, and  now it was the Hound’s voice she heard, a cold rasp, metal on stone.

[Abaddon]

Chief Smash, on 13 June 2011 - 09:13 PM, said:

It may not be a throw away cheap death but to those of us new to the series it certainly feels that way.  I love Sean Bean as an actor so I'll compare his death to his other death in Fellowship of the Ring.  In that movie he betrayed his friends but redeemed himself in a valiant final stand.  He regained his honor and went out fighting.  In GoT he threw his honor away for, what looks to be so far, no reason at all.  It would have been better if he rose up and told the king where to stick the Iron Throne before telling the crowd "This is how a Stark dies!" while submitting to the headman with his honor intact.  Right now, Martin does indeed feel like a sadistic author to this Ice and Fire newbie.

I understand where you're coming from.  But I have to disagree that he "threw away his honor" and I 100% disagree it would have been better if he had stood up defiant.  It wouldn't have done a damn bit of good.  Who's going to listen to a Hand accused of treason, brought up to confess his sins, who screams of incest and injustice?  The lords are already in on everything and the commoners who came to see 'justice' have no power and don't really care anyway.  So, I disagree it would have done anything worthwhile, at all.  The really difficult thing with Ned's death is that he was damned either way.  And that everyone was prepared to give him an out except for the little tyrant Joffrey.

Ned's death, and the way he died, is important, because it tells us that this isn't a song, it's not a world where things are hard but hey it all works out in the end.  Sometimes, there is no resurrection (Gandalf) and there is no warm happy redemption (Boromir).  But hey, Denethor was a pretty tragic figure who is not redeemed at all.  Frodo was haunted to the end of his days by what happened and had to pass over the sea (go to heaven) before he could find any real peace.  It's not really all sunshine and roses in LOTR, although there's a lot more dancing around the ugly bits.  Sometimes, bad things happen to good people, sometimes good people make bad or even evil decisions.  Sometimes people who are generally bad do good things.  That's captured beautifully in GoT.

I wouldn't sugar coat it... there are moments where you want to punch something, hard.  Ned's death was the first.  There's a good amount of 'grim' in this story.  The depth of feeling we are seeing with the airing of this episode indicates that the viewers have truly 'bought in' to the characters and the setting and really care.  The story doesn't pull punches from here on out.  But the mantra 'nobody is safe' doesn't mean 'everyone is not safe' either.  There's a lot to recommend sticking around.  But it can be a very tough ride at times.

[Abaddon]

citizenmilton, on 14 June 2011 - 04:41 AM, said:

how dare a newbie suggest adjusting something structural with such little experience, but, I'm becoming afraid of this place!

No-spoiler threads are specifically for newbies... it's difficult though, because most of us are 'spoiled' .  If we didn't post here, it would, I think, deprive the threads of a lot of their activity.  On the other hand, it's really hard to avoid spoiling things and say anything substantive.  I've been reading on the Television Without Pity threads and comments that I read as obviously book-inspired but (to me) seemed quite innocuous gave information to viewers they would not otherwise have had.

I think we all just need to be a little more vigilant, and maybe the No Spoilers threads need to be more heavily moderated, perhaps with a focus on the current episode no spoilers thread(s)?  And, as X-Ray says above, we spoiled readers (myself very much included) can be better about reporting posts that include obvious spoilers.  Hopefully the SQL errors go away so the mods are allowed to be more responsive to editing spoilers out of posts.

Also, a request for 'spoilered' people: PLEASE, instead of putting spoiler tags around things, just don't post.  It's obnoxious to be in a No Spoilers thread and see a bunch of black boxes around a succession of posts.  We spoiled people have tons of threads we can comment in without having to include spoiler boxes.  These threads (as few as they are) should be focused on providing a forum for unspoiled discourse that everyone can participate in.  Just my $0.02 and change.

Edited by Abaddon, 14 June 2011 - 09:33 AM.

[The Beard]

Someone sent me a nice message saying to stick around and talk to some of you some more.  I can see what some of you are saying and I do agree with many of your points (especially in your post Abaddon.)

You're right.  I suppose Ned kept his honor in that he believed he was doing right by his daughters by lying in front of the people.  And yes I'm old enough and have been burned enough to know that the good guys don't always win/live.  I could go on a rant and say that I don't watch movies or read books to remind me that good guys often die.  I watch shows and read books to be entertained.  Of course I have been entertained with GoT so far and I suppose Ned's death hit me so hard because I liked his character so much.  The emotional side of me wanted more of a Braveheart death where he was executed as a trader and jeered by the crowd but still refused to break.  But the rational side of me sees that this just wasn't possible in the story GRRM wanted to tell and I'll have to trust you all that it will be worth it in the long run.

[MyniggaNed]

Don't read unless your at ASoS

Spoiler

I wonder how the red- you-know-what will be like for him.

His roomate seems to be having some fun, but how did everyone find out about him crying?

Did they say they were going to sell Season 1 DVD's?  I don't have HBO so this would help me out.

Edited by MyniggaNed, 14 June 2011 - 11:57 AM.

[iheartseverus]

MyniggaNed, on 14 June 2011 - 11:53 AM, said:

Spoiler

Testing if this spoiler thing is working lol

Spoiler

Yep, it is!  

[MyniggaNed]

Everyone should look at my username

[Talleyrand]

My favourite part has to be when the room mate says "Fuck the white man and his books" and Larry replies "Nah fuck the Blond Man!"