177 replies to this topic

[Knight Of The North]

mcb, on 15 June 2011 - 01:26 PM, said:

My thoughts exactly - although triggered by Sean Bean's praise of HBO's courage (“But I thought it was a great decision by the writers. They not only kill the king off, they kill his right hand man”). You usually don't get credits for thinking outside the box, if in your adaptation of "Romeo and Juliet" both lovers die.

To be fair, I think Sean Bean is referring as much to Martin's original book as to the TV Writers.
Just sayin'.

[Cruella_Da_Oz]

Ned's death was more impactful here than in the book. Great job.
We need to keep this director! More than anything lack of impressive shots and cinematic feel were my biggest dissapoinments (some scenes looked  good but overall...), yet here finally it felt like a movie and not daytime soap with CGI. Love how they've done final scene.
Great acting by MW in the end.

Change of Shae took me by surprise. Maybe they changed her because Tyrion's attraction to book!Shae doesn't do him any favors, she's so obviously a perfect whore playing a perfect part, perfect for objefication and stroking of ego, she certainly did nothing to increase my respect for Tyrion. So we'll see how it will go. However, original Shae made sense as she acted exactly as a prostitute would act, good business  sense to give your client exactly what he wants. Maybe this Shae will fool viewers together with Tyrion? Like, from this hard ass it will look like she beging to grudgingly care for him and then BAM? I don't know.
Her line about Tysha was a totally reasonable criticism of the whole story, but... why was it there?   So weird. If D&D wanted to criticize Martin here through  Shae they totally had a point, IMO, but since they'll have to sell viewers exactly the same story they pointed out as unrealistic... not sure I get what they were going for.
More Alan Taylor (?)!

I think I love Joffrey btw. He actually looks like he belongs on Iron Throne, ironically. I mean the way he sits there. Very natural.

[Leuf]

Cruella_Da_Oz, on 16 June 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

Her line about Tysha was a totally reasonable criticism of the whole story, but... why was it there?   So weird. If D&D wanted to criticize Martin here through  Shae they totally had a point, IMO, but since they'll have to sell viewers exactly the same story they pointed out as unrealistic... not sure I get what they were going for.

I was looking over the TWOP forums at the reactions from the people who haven't read the books, and they seem to have really latched onto that line.  Instead of feeling sympathy for Tyrion they are thinking he should have known it all along.  Which is pretty ironic considering future events.  I think the writers were more interested in what the line showed about Shae rather than any concern about how people interpret the story though.

[3rd Grunt from the Right]

Knight Of The North, on 16 June 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:

To be fair, I think Sean Bean is referring as much to Martin's original book as to the TV Writers.
Just sayin'.

You are assuming that Sean Bean has actually read the book...

[Tywin's bastard]

Since we don't have a thread about the little things for this episode I just remembered that I loved the part when Dany asks Mirri who's death will pay for Drogo's life and Mirri gives a quick look towards Dany's belly before she asks them to bring Drogo's horse. Well done since a non-reader will just see the look as how you sometimes look at nothing when you think, while the rest of us of course know exactly what's going on.

I had noticed the chains on the Greatjon's chest before but I had missed that the guard on his sword also was in the form of chain links. I really enjoy all those little details.

3rd Grunt from the Right, on 17 June 2011 - 01:29 AM, said:

You are assuming that Sean Bean has actually read the book...

He has said in interviews that he read the book so it is known.

Edited by Tywin's bastard, 17 June 2011 - 03:29 PM.

[Marsala]

Littlefinger knew. He knew! He had that smug look on his face. He knew what was coming.

[legba11]

LF's expression could be read a few different ways.  He thrives on Chaos, he has said as much and this was Chaos.  He could just be enjoying the moment (also this was a man he did not like at all).

It seems likely that he was in Joffery's ear, however.

[Cold Hands-Hot Pie]

My 2 cents (having finally got thru all 31 pages of this and the previous thread)

1. agree with almost all that the final scene at the Sept of Baelor is pretty much as good as I've seen tv (or movies for that matter) get.  It was a faithful adaptation while also ADDING something that fit well and made sense.  It certainly made you care for the actors involved: whether that was pity for the Starks or intense hatred for Joffrey-- people have a reaction to what happened.

2.  MILD disappointment about the battles as others have said, hoping there might be some limited flashbacks to the Whispering Woods or at a minimum some clever exposition to explain it-- could be done by either a scene in the Lannister camp about the failing of the scouts (and Gregor's line about cutting out their eyes for the next scouts) OR when they relieve Riverrun they can explain to the thankful occupants there how they did it....

3. One area where I guess the episode DIDN'T measure up to me was the scene between Jon and Aemon.  I think Aemon did fine, but I just can't warm to this Jon.  In the books I like him and look forward to his chapters, but in the show he just comes across as so whiny, petulant and angsty.  There's also just something about his 'look'-- I know lots of women on here find him dreamy, but I can't stand it.  The funny thing is that I know a lot of book readers have had the 'whiny Jon' complaints, so its very likely that the actor is hitting the notes just how they want him too, but since it's not how I pictured it....

4. Can't believe season 1 is over tonight.   Strong work HBO.

[Mad Sweeney]

Cold Hands-Hot Pie, on 19 June 2011 - 10:58 AM, said:

My 2 cents (having finally got thru all 31 pages of this and the previous thread)

1. agree with almost all that the final scene at the Sept of Baelor is pretty much as good as I've seen tv (or movies for that matter) get.  It was a faithful adaptation while also ADDING something that fit well and made sense.  It certainly made you care for the actors involved: whether that was pity for the Starks or intense hatred for Joffrey-- people have a reaction to what happened.

2.  MILD disappointment about the battles as others have said, hoping there might be some limited flashbacks to the Whispering Woods or at a minimum some clever exposition to explain it-- could be done by either a scene in the Lannister camp about the failing of the scouts (and Gregor's line about cutting out their eyes for the next scouts) OR when they relieve Riverrun they can explain to the thankful occupants there how they did it....

3. One area where I guess the episode DIDN'T measure up to me was the scene between Jon and Aemon.  I think Aemon did fine, but I just can't warm to this Jon.  In the books I like him and look forward to his chapters, but in the show he just comes across as so whiny, petulant and angsty.  There's also just something about his 'look'-- I know lots of women on here find him dreamy, but I can't stand it.  The funny thing is that I know a lot of book readers have had the 'whiny Jon' complaints, so its very likely that the actor is hitting the notes just how they want him too, but since it's not how I pictured it....

4. Can't believe season 1 is over tonight.   Strong work HBO.

As for Jon, it's a lot different when you see it onscreen, but really I think Jon is as whiny and petulant in the books.  And despite my hatred for whiny petulant heroes, I like this Jon.  I see the force of command in him that will come in later.  I especially like him and Sam, I actually get more of a friendship between them onscreen than I did in the books.  In the books it seemed like a popular kid taking pity on a doofus.  Maybe that's more a factor of the actor playing Sam than Jon, but it works very well IMO.  He has a tough learning curve ahead of him and the petulance of youth (what is he, 16-17?) coming up so just ascribe it to character development.

I can't believe it's over either, I really hope they go 12 eps next year, with a 90 minute ep 1 and 12!  

I honestly have no idea what the actor that plays Joffrey is going to do if this show gets as popular as Entourage or other HBO shows.  He's absolutely loathed by everyone watching.  I wouldn't be surprised if he had security with him after last week.  Many actors wither and die under typecasting.  For example, TOm Wopat from Dukes of Hazzard hates the fact that he's Luke (or Bo, can't remember) and bitches about it all the time, William Atherton (of the Asshole Trilogy:  Die Hard reporter, Real Genius Professor, Ghostbusters city official) hasn't done anything but arrogant assholes, Draco Malfoy been seen anywhere but Potter movies?  Etc...   After Sansa beatings next season, who knows if he'll get attacked on the streets for being the most despised figure on current TV.  

I don't like the Aemon actor at all.  Quite frankly, all the Maesters really piss me off and are weak points in every scene IMO.  But for some reason his high pitched warble worked in the discovery scene.  I give great props to people I dislike doing great work that makes me forget that I dislike them (examples:  Glenn Close in the Shield and Bean here in GoT).  Doesn't mean I don't think they're good, just that I don't like them.  Hopefully award seasons reward them for overcoming at least this man's prejudices.  

Anyways, I'm very sad it's over tonight though I expect to have some massive chills as, for example, Dany walks out with dragons around her neck*.  All in all, as long as Tim Van Patten doesn't direct tonight's episode, I think this is at least as good as any adaptation to the screen has been.  Hopefully they don't go the way of Deadwood (who decided he language needed to be it's own character and overdid it while de-emphasizing real characters and then leaving us in limbo).  I'd like to see them continue and add credence to the fantasy genre.  

*- For some ungodly reason, the LA Times ran a story this week about what D&D are going to do next season and very inconsiderately let slip, or actually blatantly proclaimed, that CGI dragons were in the final episode.  Weak spoiler for all involved.  Can't think that D&D were happy about that, even though it was pretty obvious from early on with all the lingering shots of the eggs that they'll come into play later.  At least the show hasn't had those shots for a few eps to throw off the scent.  That's really the only scene I'm looking forward to specifically tonight, and one that IMO they need to absolutely nail.  In fact, IIRC the Westeros stuff is all tying up loose ends for an "act" ending and the most important stuff is Dany oriented.  At first I thought they were accelerating here storyline too quickly, but it worked out well.

[Ormond]

Real life has gotten in the way the last couple of weeks, so I was only able to watch Episode 8 a few days ago and watched Episode 9 today. Then I have spent the last two and a half hours trying to read all of this Ep 09 thread before I posted.

I can understand the criticism that the Whispering Wood battle should at least have been better talked about, if not seen, for nonreaders to fully understand the circumstances of Jaime's capture.

But I have a hard time understanding the objections to the lack of battle scenes that are along the lines of "they need to show the real violent nature of Westerosi culture,"  that men die and die without dignity or company. That this world is horrible and unfair and dangerous.

Why do you need battle scenes to show that, with everything else that has happened in this series? Surely anyone who has watched all nine episodes should have gotten the point that not only men, but women and children, are likely to "die without dignity or company" in this world, and that it's a "horrible and unfair and dangerous" place. I honestly can't say that a battle scene would make that any clearer, and might even make it less clear, since to me the death of soldiers in battle is a lot less "unfair" than a lot of the deaths and maimings they have shown onscreen.

I was glad that someone mentioned briefly that part of the reason for not showing Tyrion in battle as in the book is because of the probability that Dinklage doesn't have the physical ability to perform in a prolonged battle scene. As was mentioned, most reasons for dwarfism (of which there are many different kinds) lead to other physical problems besides just short stature. I'm not sure that GRRM himself understands that completely. Just as the "aging up" of the child characters makes them more realistic and believable than they were in the books, making Tyrion a bit less physically competent than in the books actually makes him more believable as a character, IMHO.

I'm glad someone finally mentioned Michelle Fairley's acting, as I have been really impressed by it. Of course the overall level of acting has been amazing. Though I was a bit disappointed at first that the series was being done with mostly UK actors, I know I have read that British actors are on the whole better trained than American ones, and I believe it even more after watching this series. Nearly every actor, including many of those who play rather minor characters, has done a job between very good and truly excellent. With such a large cast, that seems rather remarkable to me, and I am afraid that it wouldn't be the case if the show had been cast in the USA.

Finally, I'm sure others have said this on a thread I haven't read -- but I am absolutely thrilled by the theme music. Somehow that piece just fits in perfectly with the credits and the overall tone of the series. I think the composer deserves some sort of award, along with awards to most of the actors.

[Unnamed]

I finally managed to read through all the posts here, and I've noticed that no one seems to have the same theory on the Mirri/Dani thing that I do, based on:

• Mirri's comments before the blood magic scene.
  
• If Jorah had not carried Dani into the tent, the baby would have been fine (that is, this is what I believe).
  
• The stillborn fetus is described as being somewhat dragon-like.

I always thought that Mirri knew that Drogo would "live" in a vegetative state (although it doesn't make sense to me unless he was already dead), and that the horse's life was used to "power" this. It also seemed that Jorah carrying Dany into the tent was a critical mistake. If it did not matter, why make a point of having it play out that way?

But here's the key point: There's every reason to believe that Dani had a live normal baby, until she was carried into the tent, then gave birth to some reptilian thing. THEN, she is able to hatch fossilized dragon eggs. I always believed that the horse paid for Drogo's "life", but the baby paid for the dragon eggs coming to life. They were in the tent, and I assumed that they were able to suck the life out of Dani's baby as an unintended side effect of Mirri's blood magic. If not, what else explains the miraculous births of the 3 dragons?

For what it's worth, I never felt that Mirri was plotting Drogo/Rhaego's deaths from the beginning. I always read her response to Dani as an after-the-fact justification, along the lines of, "Well, it's a shame it didn't work out, but I really don't care. I never really liked your husband or your baby anyway."

Also, when she's saying Dani knew the price, I don't think she meant the stillbirth--I think she meant that Dani "knew" that Drogo would not be fully alive. Of course, I also don't tend to assume that characters are always telling the truth or saying what they really think. Given the situation, I tend to read Mirri as someone being defensive after a big fuck-up--even bigger than she expected.

Interestingly, after watching the last show, I now also wonder if Mirri's life also was necessary as part of the "price" for bringing the dragons back, but I still think that Jorah carrying Dani into the tent where there were dragon eggs and "dancing dead" was the critical event that altered "world" history.

Anyone else see it that way? In particular, anyone else agree that Dani's baby's life was spent animating dragons, not Drogo?

-VM

[Trebla]

GoT producers interview, Battle of the Green Fork decision

Quote

Some fans were bummed they didn’t see anything from the battles, even though they’re not very detailed in the book either. I don’t think it’s a spoiler to say there’s a big battle in the second book. Will you be able to show that?
DB: There was never much discussion of shooting The Battle of Whispering Wood [Robb vs. Jaime's army]. We did have plans to show Tyrion marching into battle behind The Mountain. We had a whole way we wanted to shoot it following Tyrion’s eye level as The Mountain is just (cutting soldiers down). Ultimately we had to make some really tough decisions. We ran out of time to shoot it properly and we much rather have a great scene with our characters than a crappy version of the battle. We want to have some great battles, we’re working very hard to have great battles in season two. We’d like to have more direwolves too.
DW: There’s so many things we can do so much better than films. But there are a few things like battles and creatures where there’s a brute force financial component to doing those well, and it involves being very creative and selective about how you show those things to make them achievable. We don’t want them to look like a Playstation 2 game, we want it to look at the same level [of quality] as the rest of the show.

[3rd Grunt from the Right]

So what great scenes did they have instead of the crappy version of a battle? A pointless drinking game just to give an actress more screen time, or Tyrion being knocked out like so many bad comedies? (carry on films come to mind here).

[King_Baratheon]

Unnamed, on 20 June 2011 - 12:06 PM, said:

I finally managed to read through all the posts here, and I've noticed that no one seems to have the same theory on the Mirri/Dani thing that I do, based on:

• Mirri's comments before the blood magic scene.
  
• If Jorah had not carried Dani into the tent, the baby would have been fine (that is, this is what I believe).
  
• The stillborn fetus is described as being somewhat dragon-like.

I always thought that Mirri knew that Drogo would "live" in a vegetative state (although it doesn't make sense to me unless he was already dead), and that the horse's life was used to "power" this. It also seemed that Jorah carrying Dany into the tent was a critical mistake. If it did not matter, why make a point of having it play out that way?

But here's the key point: There's every reason to believe that Dani had a live normal baby, until she was carried into the tent, then gave birth to some reptilian thing. THEN, she is able to hatch fossilized dragon eggs. I always believed that the horse paid for Drogo's "life", but the baby paid for the dragon eggs coming to life. They were in the tent, and I assumed that they were able to suck the life out of Dani's baby as an unintended side effect of Mirri's blood magic. If not, what else explains the miraculous births of the 3 dragons?

For what it's worth, I never felt that Mirri was plotting Drogo/Rhaego's deaths from the beginning. I always read her response to Dani as an after-the-fact justification, along the lines of, "Well, it's a shame it didn't work out, but I really don't care. I never really liked your husband or your baby anyway."

Also, when she's saying Dani knew the price, I don't think she meant the stillbirth--I think she meant that Dani "knew" that Drogo would not be fully alive. Of course, I also don't tend to assume that characters are always telling the truth or saying what they really think. Given the situation, I tend to read Mirri as someone being defensive after a big fuck-up--even bigger than she expected.

Interestingly, after watching the last show, I now also wonder if Mirri's life also was necessary as part of the "price" for bringing the dragons back, but I still think that Jorah carrying Dani into the tent where there were dragon eggs and "dancing dead" was the critical event that altered "world" history.

Anyone else see it that way? In particular, anyone else agree that Dani's baby's life was spent animating dragons, not Drogo?

-VM

I completely agree with all the zbove. I've always thought this was the case with Drogo, Mirri Maz Dur, Rhaego, and the Dragons. I thought it was common knowledge until I started reading forums and talking to other readers

[Unnamed]

King_Baratheon, on 20 June 2011 - 06:36 PM, said:

I completely agree with all the zbove. I've always thought this was the case with Drogo, Mirri Maz Dur, Rhaego, and the Dragons. I thought it was common knowledge until I started reading forums and talking to other readers

Thanks...it makes me feel a little less like a lone nut.

-VM

[gullyfoyle]

Just finished reading Game of Thrones and have started on Clash of Kings, and I agree with this theory. Each dragon needed a death to bring it to life. Drogo, Rhaego and Mirri Maz Duur were the sacrifices.

[Ashara]

Quote

Also: no Tower of Joy? What the hay, D&D? I know you're in the know, and will continue to tease us about it like GRRM does

I just finally caught up with the last 2 episodes, and it appears that most of the "positive Rhaegar"/"hints about Jon" were completely eliminated. All we've got were straightforward, Robert's version of events (repeated by Bran). I presume this is to prevent confusion, but I am wondering about a vehicle to convey the alternative interpretation. Will it all be just left to Mira and Jojen?

Edited by Ashara, 27 June 2011 - 08:15 AM.

[Daemrion]

I just saw a bit of the episode whilst channel surfing and I'm wondering why there was snow at Whispering Wood?? I thought there was no snow in the Riverlands yet.