474 replies to this topic

[Doom of Valyria]

What a great ending to a great season. Absolutely loved it - the mustering of the Night's Watch and the dragons were both majorly epic. Can't wait for season 2!

Hopefully the dragons won't be as MIA as the wolves were. I'm not sure how difficult/expensive the CG for them is, less than the wolves I would think.

HBO, D&D, and the cast did a phenomenal job. It was all so true to the spirit of the books, but also had some great added content that made it their own. Bravo to them all!

[Kalzakath]

My only gripe with the episode was the MMD didn't do her complete line when she was talking about when Dany would get Khal Drogo back. I mean, it really couldn't have been that hard to add in the extra 15 words right?

[Mad Sweeney]

Kalzakath, on 20 June 2011 - 11:03 PM, said:

My only gripe with the episode was the MMD didn't do her complete line when she was talking about when Dany would get Khal Drogo back. I mean, it really couldn't have been that hard to add in the extra 15 words right?

There's got to be a reason for it.  That's a rather important plot point, IMO, so I'm sure they have a good reason for excluding it.  Have a little faith, Moriarty!

[Mad Sweeney]

kairparavel, on 20 June 2011 - 08:55 PM, said:

http://insidetv.ew.c...rge-r-r-martin/

   http://www.cleveland...ilm_george.html

   Bronn Stone's sig


So, there it is folks. We never, ever stood a chance of having one big happy family on this, when the guy who created did it in such a way as to never be able to capture it on film. And every fucking week we've had a horses/Stonehenge choice made on some level. Some minor. Some major.

Why was Tyrion reduced to comedic fodder in battle? Why was the red comet never shown? Why did Robert want to joust in the tournament instead of melee? Why is The Hound so emo? Why does Loras look like he hasn't showered in three months? Why can't they get Lancel some nice hair? Why does a story about battles and war show none of it? Why are the direwolves suddenly not important to the Stark children?

Why was a man, so frustrated by Hollywood and the creative decisions made, ok with having his life's work picked apart and put back together to fit television, when it wasn't his original vision, seeing as his original vision couldn't be filmed. Why not just say "Sorry, I don't want to have to make choices"?

Why?  Are you serious?  Why accept someone's offer of a totally free $60 million dollar advertising campaign for your new book and series, not to mention paying him tons of money for the rights to the story, the exec producer salary and a little bonus of a writer's salary for an episode or two?  Seriously?  Why?  It's been what, 6 years since the last book?  No one but the longtime readers are gonna buy it, but lo and behold, HBO gives him a lottery ticket guaranteed to pay out.  Do you realize how many copies of the discounted 4 books he's sold since the show came out?  And sales of the new one have to at least be 3 or 4 or more times higher than they would've been without HBO.  HBO has a great track record of making great TV shows so who cares if they don't get horses and Stonehenge in the same shot?  I have no idea how much money he made between the last book and the series being started, but his net worth and future sales have probably risen geometrically.  So, why?  Not for money, for a SHIT TON of money and a damn fine TV show as well.  He can keep his books "pure" and let the TV pros make their altered version of his story and all of them involved can swim naked in the pools of money they're raking in.  C'mon, a $60 million ad campaign that he gets paid for on top of the sales boosts and you don't think he should do it?  Madness, pure madness.  

I'm convinced some of the craziest people on Earth are on this board.  Unless you were being sarcastic, I couldn't tell.  And quite frankly I'd rather be wrong and have missed the sarcasm than to actually think that someone actually thinks like you on this matter.  It's almost incalculable how much more money he's going to make from this show and it's effect on his book sales, old and new.  Hell, I'd sell out my life's work for 10% of the taxes he's gonna pay on the dough he collects based on the series' popularity!

[Ser Warpechowski]

Lol that was an awesome post.

Dont artists deserve money too? Shouldnt GRRM receive money for his masterpiece?

The books will always be there and they are GRRM masterpiece and the defining work of his life. I doubt he will butcher the remaining books because of a TV show.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

Ros>Shae.

There, I said it.

*puts flame suit on*

[Corvinus]

Did anyone else notice that the Kingsguard's numbers seem to have increased?
In the scene with the singer, there are 5 standing by the Iron Throne, and 4 more by the main doors.  
A mistake that only a fan of the books could have caught, but a mistake nonetheless, and a big one IMO.

Edited by Corvinus, 21 June 2011 - 02:13 AM.

[BlackTalon]

I swear if I hear another poster whining about not enough direwolves or hair not burnt off I´m going to  scream. Seriously, wtf does it matter...?

On a side note, did you notice Maisie´s relaxed, dreamy face right at the beginning when Yoren pressed her against his manly chest? Not exactly what you would exepct after she has seen her dad beheaded tens seconds ago.Made me chuckle a bit, it showed that the actors are a bit more mature than in the book...

Edited by BlackTalon, 21 June 2011 - 02:14 AM.

[Lupigis]

Eponine, on 20 June 2011 - 09:03 PM, said:

To summarize several pages of threads - many people think that the exotic, mysterious and complex aspect is wrong for the character and the change in her character changes Tyrion's motivations for (stupidly in both cases) falling in love with her, which changes the kind of person that Tyrion is. Those who like her generally think either that she's enough of a minor character that the changes are essentially unimportant, or think that she's gives Tyrion's attraction a more realistic focus, since a smart person like Tyrion might prefer a smart companion.

(Mostly I just find her annoying on a gut level. I could never listen to her blather at me all day, and since I like Tyrion so much and otherwise want to spend a lot of screen time with him, they're the TV equivalent of the good friend with the really annoying girlfriend).

This was a good summary of the issues I have with Shae. She is obviously a completely different person in the TV series vs the books, and that difference will affect Tyrion's characterisation, possibly by a whole lot.

Mad Sweeney, on 20 June 2011 - 09:20 PM, said:

Shae only needs to appear as a whore to capture her essence.

Frankly, this only goes to show that you don't understand the essence of Shae and her relationship with Tyrion wery well. Read Eponine's post again!

Edited by Lupigis, 21 June 2011 - 03:05 AM.

[Myrish swan]

Mellisandra, on 19 June 2011 - 09:03 PM, said:

I thought it was great episode, and I enjoyed every minute of it.  I don't care that they didn't burn off Dany's hair or had Pycelle with Roz (or was it some other whore?)

Some other whore? This is Westeros. Roz is the only whore, apparently.  

At any rate, I loved the Dany scenes, particularly the last one. The look in her eyes when everyone bowed down to her was...interesting. It seemed like rather than being a moment of pure triumph (as it was in the books) she looked sort of shocked/isolated/ conflicted.   Emilia Clarke is so amazing as Dany. She's adding so much depth and nuance that was lacking in the original writing of the character.

I felt really bad for Mirri Maz Dur, though. Hearing her screaming like that as she burned was pretty awful, imo.

Disliked the Jon scenes, for some reason. Particularly the last one.

People hating Shae's characterization is... interesting, to say the least. As with Cersei being written as more sympathetic, its funny how people are annoyed at an "evil" (and totally unrealistic and exaggerated, imo) character is being portrayed as an actual human being. Because honestly, it would be impossible to commit an attrocity like screwing over Tyrion for money if one actually had any good qualities whatsoever.   As with Cersei, people don't just want to hate Shae, they NEED to hate her. Like Cersei, Shae is largely a male fear made flesh... and demonized to a ridiculous extent, so no one will hate Tyrion when he murders her. Shae is the unnatural bitch who screws over her boyfriend, and actually prefers money to love with a good man. Cersei is the unnatural bitch who lusts for power, wants to assume the male role a.k.a. be above her husband, and actually (evilly!) places her own ambitions over the man who loves her. Peoples need to see these two archetypes portrayed as totally evil and hateful is... interesting, to say the least.

Edited by Myrish swan, 21 June 2011 - 03:31 AM.

[Corvinus]

Myrish swan, on 21 June 2011 - 03:22 AM, said:

Some other whore? This is Westeros. Roz is the only whore, apparently.  

At any rate, I loved the Dany scenes, particularly the last one. The look in her eyes when everyone bowed down to her was...interesting. It seemed like rather than being a moment of pure triumph (as it was in the books) she looked sort of shocked/isolated/ conflicted.   Emilia Clarke is so amazing as Dany. She's adding so much depth and nuance that was lacking in the original writing of the character.

I felt really bad for Mirri Maz Dur, though. Hearing her screaming like that as she burned was pretty awful, imo.

Disliked the Jon scenes, for some reason. Particularly the last one.

Sorry, but I really have to disagree with your last two statements.

[Direwolves are totally sweet]

Finally caught up to my DVR.

My reaction:

"HOLY SHIT TYWIN IS A FUCKING BAD ASS!"

Also, after some wasted space in the middle...... "DRAGONSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!"

10/10

[Grogsmash]

Myrish swan, on 21 June 2011 - 03:22 AM, said:

Like Cersei, Shae is largely a male fear made flesh... and demonized to a ridiculous extent, so no one will hate Tyrion when he murders her. Shae is the unnatural bitch who screws over her boyfriend, and actually prefers money to love with a good man. Cersei is the unnatural bitch who lusts for power, wants to assume the male role a.k.a. be above her husband, and actually (evilly!) places her own ambitions over the man who loves her. Peoples need to see these two archetypes portrayed as totally evil and hateful is... interesting, to say the least.

Or maybe you need to scrap your theory that these are male fears made flesh. I know it would be hard to do, as you trumpet it everywhere and in every thread where Cersei or Shae are discussed, but it is quite wrong.

If Cersei had been a husband who killed all his natural born children of his wife and substituted them for other children of his, we would hate "him" just as much. Now I grant you this isn't a perfect analogy, but my point is that Cersei has ALOT more problems than just being powerhungry and ambitious.

[Lupigis]

Myrish swan, on 21 June 2011 - 03:22 AM, said:

its funny how people are annoyed at an "evil" (and totally unrealistic and exaggerated, imo) character is being portrayed as an actual human being. Because honestly, it would be impossible to commit an attrocity like screwing over Tyrion for money

That is not a fair summary of the issues people have with TV Shae. Both TV and book Shae are portrayed as actual human beings, but book Shae is naive and dependent on Tyrion while TV Shae is experienced and appear to be much more independent. Which type of woman Tyrion falls for affects the way we percieve him.

Nor is it a correct description of what book Shae does. Her lack of experience, naivety and dependence on Tyrion makes it easy to interpret the fact that she testifies against him as an act that she is forced to do, because of outright threats and/or desperation.

With a stronger, more experienced and independent TV Shae, how will that testimony and Tyrions reaction to it play out? I have no idea, but I'm worried that HBO will take the easy way out and turn TV Shae into someone who actively betrays Tyrion, as a free choice. That would make his murder of her an act that would be much easier to justify for thos who want to idolise Tyrion. That would be a shame, IMO, because the murder of book Shae is a turning point for Tyrion that is even more important than his subsequent murder of Tywin.

The above is just my speculation. In two years time or so we'll know, and in the meanwhile we can all hope that I'm wrong.

[Alexia]

Lupigis, on 21 June 2011 - 04:38 AM, said:

That is not a fair summary of the issues people have with TV Shae. Both TV and book Shae are portrayed as actual human beings, but book Shae is naive and dependent on Tyrion while TV Shae is experienced and appear to be much more independent. Which type of woman Tyrion falls for affects the way we percieve him.

Nor is it a correct description of what book Shae does. Her lack of experience, naivety and dependence on Tyrion makes it easy to interpret the fact that she testifies against him as an act that she is forced to do, because of outright threats and/or desperation.

With a stronger, more experienced and independent TV Shae, how will that testimony and Tyrions reaction to it play out? I have no idea, but I'm worried that HBO will take the easy way out and turn TV Shae into someone who actively betrays Tyrion, as a free choice. That would make his murder of her an act that would be much easier to justify for thos who want to idolise Tyrion. That would be a shame, IMO, because the murder of book Shae is a turning point for Tyrion that is even more important than his subsequent murder of Tywin.

Well said, indeed, and I completely agree.  The dynamic between Tyrion and Shae is completely changed with this girl's completely different personality and I dislike it, because I thought the dynamic between them is a very important aspect of how things ultimately unfold between them.  I also think its entirely inaccurate to say that Book-Shae had no redeeming qualities, there were always hints of a sympathetic backstory behind her and she certainly wasn't portrayed as evil (nor was she exaggerated and unrealistic, IMO) but as a naive young girl who was in way over her head.  I actually think, with the new independent personality they've written into Shae, that they do plan to have her approach Cersei and independently sell Tyrion out.  That's a real shame, to lose all the nuance of her.  

Shae is the most realistic prostitute character in the books, IMO.  She has a backstory of molestation at an early age (this is consistent with real-life girls who wind up in the sex trade), she has experienced rape (also consistent with real-life prostitutes), she is obsessed by pretty jewelry and dresses (also something I'd expect of a destitute girl suddenly elevated in the way she was -- hell, that's Sansa!), she performs services for which payment is refused her (Tyrion in ASOS, giving testimony for Cersei...also realistic given the power dynamic between prostitutes and their johns), she gets slapped by her john when she displeases him, and she winds up being murdered by her john and her body thrown out like so much trash.  GRRM really did a good job of showing the "standard" traumas and experiences that both lead girls into the sex trade and that they go through in the sex trade.  I very much appreciate Shae as a literary character and I'll take her any day over the "prostitute with a heart of gold" trope or that romanticized character HBO developed for screen (I agree with those who say she comes off as too courtesan-y and too independent).

Edited by Alexia, 21 June 2011 - 05:58 AM.