Boltons...

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

He could have killed Jaime after Ned was executed. And threatened to off the other Lannister kids if the urchins in KL threatened to harm Sansa or fake Arya.

He wasn't strong enough tactically. Ned and Robb were good battle commanders and warriors but poor in politics. I liked him as a character, but I acknowledge the characters mistakes.

[Kalbowski]

Yeah, when he returns as unRoose. Seriously, let's just revive EVERYONE at this point and start over. Since Gregor and Sandor are apparently also being given the honour (I'm not sure if this is true or not, just speculation).

:blink:

Is Roose dead?

[Valmy]

The Boltons have backed the wrong horse and rather rashly at that. They have no escape plan they have risked everything by ruthlessly betraying all their neighbors in favor of distant houses that will not and cannot really support them. They bought high on Lannister Power and are going to be in trouble really soon. Both they and the Freys have no support and were relying entirely on Tywin Lannister paying his debts. Uh oh.

[Bronn is God]

I won't deny that in the short term it saved lives, but the Boltons ruling the North from a place called the Dreadfort? With Ramsay Snow as he heir (I don't know if he's legitimized, but he's Roose's only surviving son, right)? Do the math...

Ramsay is a fuck up. He is Roose's biggest (and probably only) mistake.

:bang:

I don't understand why so many people like the Boltons and want them to rule the North. That is ridiculous! Do you understand that means Bran and Rickon would have to die?! There are so many Stark haters on these forums. Since when did being honest and noble go hand in hand with stupid and naive?

Robb did what was right. He was a great leader. It took deceipt, curruption, and villainy to take him down. Tywin already got what was coming to him and the rest of the curruptors will to. Robb's one mistake was sending Theon to the Iron Islands. What he did with Jeyne was honorable. That is what I want from my king.

Bran has the most boring chapters ever. I had to suffer through them and it made me hate him so much. I hated Rickon as well, a small child should never have a direwolf. He would go around assaulting people like it was no ones business and every just smiles and says "he is a child". Children need discipline, not direwolves.

To be fair, I do like Ned and did like Robb up until the Karstark incident. But Roose Bolton is on another level of being interesting, thus he takes the cake.

[Ferrous]

:bang:

I don't understand why so many people like the Boltons and want them to rule the North. That is ridiculous! Do you understand that means Bran and Rickon would have to die?! There are so many Stark haters on these forums. Since when did being honest and noble go hand in hand with stupid and naive?

Robb did what was right. He was a great leader. It took deceipt, curruption, and villainy to take him down. Tywin already got what was coming to him and the rest of the curruptors will to. Robb's one mistake was sending Theon to the Iron Islands. What he did with Jeyne was honorable. That is what I want from my king.

:whip:

It doesn't mean that Bran and Rickon have to die.

Bolton already rules the north and Bran and Rickon are alive.

Also explaing why Roose's actions were perhaps justifiable does not mean that I advocate his actions.

I also did like Robb.

Robb was a great military tactician but a weak leader. What he did with Jeyne was not honorable. He promised Frey that he would marry his daughter as the condition for Frey joining his rebellion. So basically he offered Frey something, in exchange for him putting his own neck at risk and then disregarded this promise. Frey had no obligation to follow Robb. The honorable thing would have not to have sex with Jeyne.

As far as Robb knows, even Ned - a paragon of honor - slept with a girl he was not married to.

Robb has to choose between two dishonorable options and picked the one that whilst he personally liked, screwed over the rebellion he was leading.

A good leader would have considered what was best for the revolution he was leading.

This was not the only screw up Robb did but I don't think there is a need to go in depth with the others.

[Kalbowski]

The Boltons have backed the wrong horse and rather rashly at that. They have no escape plan they have risked everything by ruthlessly betraying all their neighbors in favor of distant houses that will not and cannot really support them. They bought high on Lannister Power and are going to be in trouble really soon. Both they and the Freys have no support and were relying entirely on Tywin Lannister paying his debts. Uh oh.

:agree: :owned: :commie:

[Ferrous]

The Boltons have backed the wrong horse and rather rashly at that. They have no escape plan they have risked everything by ruthlessly betraying all their neighbors in favor of distant houses that will not and cannot really support them. They bought high on Lannister Power and are going to be in trouble really soon. Both they and the Freys have no support and were relying entirely on Tywin Lannister paying his debts. Uh oh.

Possibly true.

Bolton however does have suffcient force and the required hostage to look after himself. Stannis or the others are the only forces around that can defeat them.

Rickon and Bran will not be able to gather any armies and would require the backing up a major power, so in the North, either Stannis, the iron islanders or Bolton himself.

[Valmy]

Possibly true.

Bolton however does have suffcient force and the required hostage to look after himself. Stannis or the others are the only forces around that can defeat them.

One Northern Bannerman can dominate the entire North all by himself? I think you at least need a few significant other houses to declare for you.

Besides if Stannis wants to win the North surely destroying the Boltons would have to be priority #1.

[Kalbowski]

It doesn't mean that Bran and Rickon have to die.

Bolton already rules the north and Bran and Rickon are alive.

Also explaing why Roose's actions were perhaps justifiable does not mean that I advocate his actions.

I also did like Robb.

Robb was a great military tactician but a weak leader. What he did with Jeyne was not honorable. He promised Frey that he would marry his daughter as the condition for Frey joining his rebellion. So basically he offered Frey something, in exchange for him putting his own neck at risk and then disregarded this promise. Frey had no obligation to follow Robb. The honorable thing would have not to have sex with Jeyne.

As far as Robb knows, even Ned - a paragon of honor - slept with a girl he was not married to.

Robb has to choose between two dishonorable options and picked the one that whilst he personally liked, screwed over the rebellion he was leading.

A good leader would have considered what was best for the revolution he was leading.

This was not the only screw up Robb did but I don't think there is a need to go in depth with the others.

fencing:

1.) Bran and Rickon do have to die. There is no way the Boltons will be able to rule whilst the Stark heirs still survive. Roose being Warden of the North is based on the notion that those two are already dead and that fake Arya is the only remaining stark heir.

2.) How can Roose's actions be justifiable?! When is turning your cloak and stabbing the king that you swoar an oath to in the back at a wedding feast ever justifiable?! The North will never follow him with the knowledge of how he came into power. Not even tactically smart. Dumn and evil on all counts.

3.) Robb was a great leader. The North and the Riverlands proclaimed him king at the age of 16! That doesn't happen to bad politicians

4.) Banging Jeyne happened because he sent Theon to the Iron Islands(his 1 mistake). Afterward, he chose her honor over hers. The right choice. Frey then had no contract with Robb. At least until he agreed to accept Edmure instead of Robb and the contract was renewed.

[Kalbowski]

Repost on accident

[Pate Peet]

Roose is an noble in an old, old family. Peasants are there to serve, that is why they exist, to serve him. He is there to rule, of course he is going to slap them around.

Robb would not have gotten out of the Red Wedding alive, he had two quarrels in him and one arrow in the chest. Roose's action was just a coup de grace.

Roose also has Jamie to honor any agreements that were made with Tywin. Jamie had to have known what was coming, why else would he send his compliments with Roose?

Ramsey is another story. I think he is just an element to show Theon up, an example of what being truly ruthless is.

[Ferrous]

One Northern Bannerman can dominate the entire North all by himself? I think you at least need a few significant other houses to declare for you.

Besides if Stannis wants to win the North surely destroying the Boltons would have to be priority #1.

The forces of almost every other house have effectively being destroyed and Bolton's hostages keep houses like Umber off his back, and between him and Stannis.

Stannis is hardly a brilliant position himself, especially if he goes around burning godswoods. He also has defending the wall to consider and thus has to keep a lot of his army near the wall.

[Valmy]

Roose also has Jamie to honor any agreements that were made with Tywin. Jamie had to have known what was coming, why else would he send his compliments with Roose?

Yeah Jaime had no idea what was happening. He sent his compliments to Roose since, you know, Roose was Robb's bannerman. Why do you have to know a murderous plot is afoot to send your compliments along? It is supposed to be tragic, Lady Stoneheart now THINKS Jaime was probably responsible and is going to kill him, or send Brienne to kill him or whatever.

The Lannister cause is collapsing anyway.

[Ferrous]

fencing:

1.) Bran and Rickon do have to die. There is no way the Boltons will be able to rule whilst the Stark heirs still survive. Roose being Warden of the North is based on the notion that those two are already dead and that fake Arya is the only remaining stark heir.

2.) How can Roose's actions be justifiable?! When is turning your cloak and stabbing the king that you swoar an oath to in the back at a wedding feast ever justifiable?! The North will never follow him with the knowledge of how he came into power. Not even tactically smart. Dumn and evil on all counts.

3.) Robb was a great leader. The North and the Riverlands proclaimed him king at the age of 16! That doesn't happen to bad politicians

4.) Banging Jeyne happened because he sent Theon to the Iron Islands(his 1 mistake). Afterward, he chose her honor over hers. The right choice. Frey then had no contract with Robb. At least until he agreed to accept Edmure instead of Robb and the contract was renewed.

1. ) Roose being Warden of the North is because the King gave him the position. The King is free to name whoever he likes as Warden of the North. Roose is Warden of the North because the Starks are considered traitors.

2. ) Roose actions are justifiable and not evil. Ending a doomed rebellion is justification. Robb Stark proved himself incompetent, untrustworthy and would have kept the north in an unwinnable two front war.

3. ) Great leaders don't end up in such bad positions. Robb was prematurely crowned King due to a northern dislike of the south and being a very good tactician. He proved to be an inept leader.

4. ) Marrying Jeyne was an honorable thing for Robb the individual. It was a choice that was to the detriment to his kingdom and his alliance. The marriage agreement with the Freys was what bound the rebellion together as well as what bound his two kingdoms together. Stannis was correct when he went to the wall, because a King should put the Kingdom ahead of himself, rather than himself ahead fo the King. Robb put his and Jeyne's honour ahead of the Kingdoms need.

[Kalbowski]

He could have killed Jaime after Ned was executed. And threatened to off the other Lannister kids if the urchins in KL threatened to harm Sansa or fake Arya.

He wasn't strong enough tactically. Ned and Robb were good battle commanders and warriors but poor in politics. I liked him as a character, but I acknowledge the characters mistakes.

Why would he kill Jaime? Jaime is a prisoner of war and has done nothing for him to be executed for. Unless Robb knew about what happened to Bran which if he did I am pretty sure he would have executed Jaime. Honorable people don't execute prisoners of war.

[King_In_The_North]

Robb was a great military tactician but a weak leader.

I disagree with that statement. He seemed to be a strong leader, but not a good politician. Perhaps he was too trusting (with Theon) and put honour before more important things (Karstark, Jeyne Westerling...) but he was a capable and competent leader for the North.

[Ferrous]

Why would he kill Jaime? Jaime is a prisoner of war and has done nothing for him to be executed for. Unless Robb knew about what happened to Bran which if he did I am pretty sure he would have executed Jaime. Honorable people don't execute prisoners of war.

He threw Bran out of a window.

Catelyn knows this and presumbly so does Robb.

Robb only kept Jaime alive as he wanted a hostage which was perfectly reasonable.

It was Catelyn who screwed up in regards to Robb and not his fault.

[Valmy]

The forces of almost every other house have effectively being destroyed and Bolton's hostages keep houses like Umber off his back, and between him and Stannis.

Stannis is hardly a brilliant position himself, especially if he goes around burning godswoods. He also has defending the wall to consider and thus has to keep a lot of his army near the wall.

Yeah I am sure the Umbers are going to be his loyal pawns in all things.

[Ferrous]

I disagree with that statement. He seemed to be a strong leader, but not a good politician. Perhaps he was too trusting (with Theon) and put honour before more important things (Karstark, Jeyne Westerling...) but he was a capable and competent leader for the North.

Politics is an important part of leadership and one of the most important ones when trying to manage a war. He was incompetent in this regard.

He was a capable and competent battlefield leader, had decent strategic judgement save for that one screw up with Edmure.

I admit that he looks more incompetent due to Balon being retarded but he did give Balon the opportunity to attack him.

[Free Northman]

The forces of almost every other house have effectively being destroyed and Bolton's hostages keep houses like Umber off his back, and between him and Stannis.

Stannis is hardly a brilliant position himself, especially if he goes around burning godswoods. He also has defending the wall to consider and thus has to keep a lot of his army near the wall.

If it was this easy to usurp the rightful rulers of one of the Seven Kingdoms it would have happened many times in the past whenever lords were off fighting distant wars.

Instead, the Arryns have ruled the Vale for 6000 years, House Gardener ruled the Reach from the Age of Heroes up to the field of fire 300 years ago, the Lannisters have ruled the West since the time of Lann the Clever, the Storm King ruled the Stormlands until Aegon's conquest and House Stark ruled the North for 8000 years. Granted, the part of the North under their control only included the entire North by 1000 years ago, but they were the Kings of Winter for 8000 years nevertheless.

Siezing control of the lands of your overlord clearly isn't as easy as Bolton seems to think it is.

There is no way that the other lords will accept one of their own as suddenly being their overlord. Even if their forces are weak temporarily, within a few years they will inevitably crush the Boltons - unless Roose has royal backing. And that's if the Starks don't return and sort him out before all of that happens.

On his own, he is toast. He needed Lannister backing to remain in power. And with the Lannisters on the way down, so is Roose.

But he'll be assassinated by Arya before all of this comes to pass in any case, so the point is moot.