259 replies to this topic

[Mad Sweeney]

Unnamed, on 21 June 2011 - 02:08 PM, said:

Hmm, it's definitely an interesting point that a horse isn't a high enough price to pay for a human life. Then again, what she bought wasn't a human life. And, in retrospect, I think that's how I see it: You can suck life out of a big, powerful creature and put it into a big, powerful human, but there's more to being human than a living body...

Also, I find it hard to reconcile this logic with MDD's peregrinations. She basically said (or strongly implied) that the horse's life was what was needed (wasn't so clear on what would be the payoff). Later, she said that Dani "knew" the price. How could she? You said all that you needed was a horse, and I'm supposed to assume that you're going to kill my baby? For me, that interpretation just didn't make any sense. So, I assumed the "price" in question was the half-life vegetative state that Drogo wound up in. The way I read it, you couldn't have "purchased" real life for Drogo with a horse or a baby...

As far as the stillbirth, I guess the fact that it came out looking like a dragon was more eye-popping to me--I just couldn't imagine that happening without it being signficant. It's one thing to say, "Your baby was born dead," but quite another to say, "You're baby was born a dead, winged lizard." Unless we were led to believe that this was common for Targaryans, it strikes me as a pretty singular event. [Bill Cosby version: "My darling, I love you very much. You've just given birth to...a lizard."]

All this being said, I absolutely DO agree that your interpretation fits better with the way they portrayed these events in the TV show. Everyone saw MDD cut her eyes at Dani's belly, and the whole thing seemed staged to portray MDD as a big fat vengeful liar. Which leaves the birth of the dragons as just a very strange, miraculous thing that happened without any obvious cause, other than Dani's desire for dragons.

For me, that's less satisfying. Magic is magic, but I like to feel that there exist some underlying "rules" that explain what's happening. If bringing Drogo back from the edge of death by sepsis would be a big damn deal, then how much bigger of a deal is to bring back dragon eggs that have been dead long enough to have fossilized? And what price was paid? As you mentioned, the explanation of the rules could be forthcoming later, but my suspicion is that this will remain a headscratcher.

-VM

I'll have to re-read things again next month right before the new book comes out (hopefully midnight the 11th/12th on my nook!), but very rarely do pieces of prophecy need any other reason for happening than their own happening, if you get what I'm saying.  It's as easy as saying the eggs hatched because Dany is the last dragon (Targ).  I see Drogo's life and the dragon's birth as two separate happenings that occurred close to each other.  Remember, Drogo's life-saving happened before the eggs hatched.  If Dany never killed him and then burned him, would the eggs have hatched?  Drogo's life was paid for by the dead Rhaego.  Then Dany decided on her own to end Drogo's "life" and during that separate event, the eggs hatched.  I don't see a connection between the two, other than emotional trauma to the last dragon (and her subsequent immersion in the fire along with the eggs).

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Morrigan, on 21 June 2011 - 04:10 PM, said:

(Too bad scarcely anything happens beyond the Wall until ASoS, lol...)

- First visit to Craster's Keep and all that entails
- Establishing the camp at Fist of the First Men
- Discovery of the dragonglass blades
- Introducing Qorin Halfhand
- Jon & Co. ranging the Skirling Pass, killing wildlings, meeting Ygritte
- Jon letting Ygritte go
- Ghost encountering the warg Eagle, seeing the wildling horde
- Jon & Halfhand's run from the wildlings, Halfhand's order to Jon
- Jon & Halfhand's last stand versus Rattleshirt & Co plus the "duel."
- Jon deserting & joining the wildlings, reuniting with Ygritte

Nah, you're right, scarcely anything happens. Plus it might make sense to move Jon's meeting with Mance into Season 2 as well.

[Captain Tripps]

http://a1.l3-images....9507e02fe/l.jpg

Most important shot of the series, IMO.  These are the players.  Game is the game.  Always.

Edited by Captain Tripps, 21 June 2011 - 04:25 PM.

[Mad Sweeney]

CryFenril, on 21 June 2011 - 02:42 PM, said:

I'm in agreement that changing Shae into a cold, worldly, calculating conniver who is capable of subtle deceit is a huge change from her character in the book, and can cause serious changes in her actions (or the impetus behind them) in the future.

Book Shae is easily swayed by those around her, and takes delight in things like seeing golden castles made out of clouds. She is inelegant enough to beg to go the feast in front of the one man who doesn't want her to go. She asks for her silks and satins and jewels back, she doesn't demand them. She pouts, she whines, she sulks, but she never once takes the upper hand.

Not so, our new "show-Shae". Show-shae takes what she wants, and is willing to rip someone up verbally to get it. She is aggressive, provoking, socially literate, and able to hold her own when conversing with Tyrion. She challenges him - not something I'd think he'd appreciate, considering his relationship with his sister and his father.

You're saying that a whore in a camp takes what she wants?  She rips someone up to get it?  What scene was that?  About the only thing I can remember was the part about talking about her mom and dad, and that only barely fits the "gets what she wants" part of your post.  The fact is, we don't know anything about her, other than the fact that she apparently didn't come from a broken home with an abusive father.  She was still monetarily attached to the ginger cunt a few tents down and switched her attention to Tyrion for nothing other than whore-money.  

As for what Tyrion does or does not appreciate, well he could have any whore in the entire country agree with him on everything.  Nothing about that would make the girl special to him.  One that arouses not only his Lannister weenie but also his intellect (something that very, very few people, much less whores, in the books do) is someone he's much more likely to fall hard for than a simple country girl taken to whoring.

[Mad Sweeney]

Morrigan, on 21 June 2011 - 04:10 PM, said:

What annoys me about the show is that while it's very good, it's just shy of being great, and it could easily have been great with just a bit more effort (and I'm not talking about budget issues). And I'm not talking about stupid stuff like 4-legged dragons or Dany not being bald or whatever, but about stuff that really adds to the drama. Examples:
- The King in the North scene was good. But episode 10 was the shortest one at 53 minutes and even had some filler with Pycelle and Littlefinger/Varys, so they did have minutes to spare. Why not show the northmen arguing back and forth, and THEN have the Greatjon come up with the King in the North idea? That would have made the scene much more powerful.
- Dany's pyre. Why not have her ask Rhakaro to be her bloodrider, then have him refuse her, and show the looks on the face of the Dothraki showing they think she's stupid/crazy/etc, and THEN have them all bow down to her once they see the dragons? Why give the "blood of my blood" line to Jorah instead of Rhakaro (it's a Dothraki saying after all)?
- The Jaime/Catelyn scene. It made no sense to have it here and now. Catelyn questions Jaime about Bran because she learned of the incest through Stannis and connected the dots. Jaime admits to having pushed Bran because at this point in the story, he doesn't care anymore, he's been rotting away in a cell for months, and also, he knows Catelyn knows, so  there's no point in him denying it. It makes no sense for him to admit having pushed Bran now nor does it make sense for Catelyn to connect Bran to Jaime. And Jaime will have precious little screen time in S2 anyway, why use up one of his best scenes too early?


There are many other moments like that. They might be insignificant details to some, but to me, doing them properly would have given the scenes a lot more impact, and with little additional effort.

And then there's the significant departures. The characterizations of Shae and Cersei are completely different (especially Shae). The reasons for that are far from apparent, and in Shae's case, bringing her to court to be the "Hand's Lady" will force them to have a completely different storyline in seasons 2 and 3. Some ask to have faith in the writers, and I'm sure they'll come up with something decent, but I'm also sure (by past experience) that it won't be as good as what GRRM wrote. Oh well...

Edit: I have to say, though, that I think they really nailed the Wall scene of the last episode. Showing the Sworn brothers getting ready for the big ranging with Mormont's voice-over was just epic, I actually had a chill. (Too bad scarcely anything happens beyond the Wall until ASoS, lol...) And the dragons themselves were perfect, really good CGI there.

I'm sure they will sleep extremely unsoundly on top of all their Emmys and Golden Globes after reading your post and wishing they'd only thought of these things that would've made their series better.  

As for Shae going to court, it hasn't happened so forget your doom and gloom version of how the story will have to change.  Remember, Tyrion bringing Shae to KL was a semantic twist of Tyrion's.  So until that happens, I don't think it's safe to assume that it will happen.

[Lupigis]

Bronn Stone, on 21 June 2011 - 03:47 PM, said:

On the topic of changes to Shae.  They HAD to change Shae.

They had to change her somehow. I'm just worried about the direction of the change. Maybe a bit prematurely, since it will take so long until we know exactly how they develop her...

[Captain Tripps]

Unnamed, on 21 June 2011 - 02:08 PM, said:

Hmm, it's definitely an interesting point that a horse isn't a high enough price to pay for a human life. Then again, what she bought wasn't a human life. And, in retrospect, I think that's how I see it: You can suck life out of a big, powerful creature and put it into a big, powerful human, but there's more to being human than a living body...

Also, I find it hard to reconcile this logic with MDD's peregrinations. She basically said (or strongly implied) that the horse's life was what was needed (wasn't so clear on what would be the payoff). Later, she said that Dani "knew" the price. How could she? You said all that you needed was a horse, and I'm supposed to assume that you're going to kill my baby? For me, that interpretation just didn't make any sense. So, I assumed the "price" in question was the half-life vegetative state that Drogo wound up in. The way I read it, you couldn't have "purchased" real life for Drogo with a horse or a baby...

As far as the stillbirth, I guess the fact that it came out looking like a dragon was more eye-popping to me--I just couldn't imagine that happening without it being signficant. It's one thing to say, "Your baby was born dead," but quite another to say, "You're baby was born a dead, winged lizard." Unless we were led to believe that this was common for Targaryans, it strikes me as a pretty singular event. [Bill Cosby version: "My darling, I love you very much. You've just given birth to...a lizard."]

All this being said, I absolutely DO agree that your interpretation fits better with the way they portrayed these events in the TV show. Everyone saw MDD cut her eyes at Dani's belly, and the whole thing seemed staged to portray MDD as a big fat vengeful liar. Which leaves the birth of the dragons as just a very strange, miraculous thing that happened without any obvious cause, other than Dani's desire for dragons.

For me, that's less satisfying. Magic is magic, but I like to feel that there exist some underlying "rules" that explain what's happening. If bringing Drogo back from the edge of death by sepsis would be a big damn deal, then how much bigger of a deal is to bring back dragon eggs that have been dead long enough to have fossilized? And what price was paid? As you mentioned, the explanation of the rules could be forthcoming later, but my suspicion is that this will remain a headscratcher.

-VM

\

Mirra never says the Horse is the price tho, she merely says it won't cost Dany HER life.  She only mentions that they need the horse's blood.  In the books it's clearer that all the violence that erupts as MDD begins the ceremony is the price being paid.  I don't think MDD intended, in the books, to kill the baby, that was a consequence of Jorah carrying Dany into the tent.  The show depicted it a little differently.  But even there, Dany repeats MDD's line about only death paying for life, and the line about wanting her life, not her screams.  Astute viewers should be able to connect that with the dragon's birth.  

Altho it's heavily implied in the books that the same ceremony that returned thee semblance of life to Drogo started the transformation of the eggs (as they were in the same room, maybe the spell affects any dead thing within range), as Dany is dreaming about them while unconscious after giving birth, and to her they feel warm when she wakes.  A scene or two making that point would have been nice.  MDD's death (and perhaps even Drogo's) is the final spark they needed to hatch, but they weren't just fossils when she placed them on the pyre.

[Unnamed]

Mad Sweeney, on 21 June 2011 - 04:21 PM, said:

I'll have to re-read things again next month right before the new book comes out (hopefully midnight the 11th/12th on my nook!), but very rarely do pieces of prophecy need any other reason for happening than their own happening, if you get what I'm saying.  It's as easy as saying the eggs hatched because Dany is the last dragon (Targ).  I see Drogo's life and the dragon's birth as two separate happenings that occurred close to each other.  Remember, Drogo's life-saving happened before the eggs hatched.  If Dany never killed him and then burned him, would the eggs have hatched?  Drogo's life was paid for by the dead Rhaego.  Then Dany decided on her own to end Drogo's "life" and during that separate event, the eggs hatched.  I don't see a connection between the two, other than emotional trauma to the last dragon (and her subsequent immersion in the fire along with the eggs).

All I can say at this point is, I hear what you're saying. And it's still interesting to delve into an alternate interpretation, but I suspect that we've carried this as far as we can. And I probably haven't come any closer to changing your mind than you have to changing mind. Not that I'm telling you to shut up, but I've run out of new things to say. But a fun topic, nonetheless.

-VM

[D_Richard]

Mad Sweeney, on 21 June 2011 - 04:35 PM, said:

As for Shae going to court, it hasn't happened so forget your doom and gloom version of how the story will have to change.  Remember, Tyrion bringing Shae to KL was a semantic twist of Tyrion's.  So until that happens, I don't think it's safe to assume that it will happen.

Seems to me that just as much, if not more, is being extrapolated by fans from the actress's dialect and eye make-up as from her actual dialogue.

[Unnamed]

Captain Tripps, on 21 June 2011 - 05:00 PM, said:

...In the books it's clearer that all the violence that erupts as MDD begins the ceremony is the price being paid...

...MDD's death (and perhaps even Drogo's) is the final spark they needed to hatch, but they weren't just fossils when she placed them on the pyre.

I don't remember getting the impression that the ceremony was causing the violence--at least, not magically--but I like it. MDD is in the tent pushing buttons on the cash register, and outside the blood is flowing. Never occurred to me...

I also like your construction where the ceremony starts the process and the pyre supplies the final (blood) ingredients. It would make it that much more interesting to know what Daeni actually is doing while she's in the pyre. I assume she wasn't just waiting for dragons to land in her lap...

-VM

[Unnamed]

Stark Truth, on 21 June 2011 - 03:50 PM, said:

Look I can live with 2-legged dragons, and I didn't say they only have two legs, I said I prefer the 4-legged kind.  FYI, to say I don't know what I'm talking about is completely ridiculous...
Also I have one in my backyard and I'm pretty sure he has 4 legs since I walk him everyday, twice a day.  What do you have to say to that?

"It doesn't matter where he grips it. It's a simple question of weight ratios: A 5-ounce dragon could not carry a one-pound coconut. Look, a dragon has to flap its wings 43 times a second in order to maintain air-speed velocity--am I right?"

"If it was a 4-legged D&D dragon it could do it."

"Well, yes, but not a Valyrian dragon. That's my point."

"Of course, the D&D dragons are non-migratory..."

-VM

[Captain Tripps]

Unnamed, on 21 June 2011 - 05:08 PM, said:

I don't remember getting the impression that the ceremony was causing the violence--at least, not magically--but I like it. MDD is in the tent pushing buttons on the cash register, and outside the blood is flowing. Never occurred to me...

I also like your construction where the ceremony starts the process and the pyre supplies the final (blood) ingredients. It would make it that much more interesting to know what Daeni actually is doing while she's in the pyre. I assume she wasn't just waiting for dragons to land in her lap...

-VM

In the book at least, she doesn't enter the pyre until she hears the eggs hatching.  I imagine he was doing whatever it is you do to newborn dragons, then nursing them in turn.


Also I thought 2 legged fore winged dragons had been accepted by the fantasy community as the most biologically natural.  At least on any Earth like, "vertebrates with 4 limbs" planet.  Didn't expect that to be a big deal.

Edited by Captain Tripps, 21 June 2011 - 05:29 PM.

[Unnamed]

Captain Tripps, on 21 June 2011 - 05:25 PM, said:

In the book at least, she doesn't enter the pyre until she hears the eggs hatching.  I imagine he was doing whatever it is you do to newborn dragons, then nursing them in turn.

Well, it makes sense, but I was picturing something more...exciting.

-VM

[Captain Tripps]

Unnamed, on 21 June 2011 - 05:28 PM, said:

Well, it makes sense, but I was picturing something more...exciting.

-VM

I find the image of her breast feeding winged reptiles...titillating.

[Tywin's bastard]

Stark Truth, on 21 June 2011 - 03:50 PM, said:

Look I can live with 2-legged dragons, and I didn't say they only have two legs, I said I prefer the 4-legged kind.  FYI, to say I don't know what I'm talking about is completely ridiculous.  I've been reading fantasy for 20 years, and I really don't care who the best dragon ever put on film was, because books are better than movies every time.  Furthermore there are numerous instances of Dragons with 4 limbs - D&D, AD&D, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, etc etc...WoW, Final Fantasy, Harry Potter, MBotF (Steven Erikson for the illiterate), Eragon,  Wagner's Siegfried, Fin Fang Foom (Marvel Comics)....need I continue?

Also I have one in my backyard and I'm pretty sure he has 4 legs since I walk him everyday, twice a day.  What do you have to say to that?

If you don't feel what I wrote fits you then you don't have to take offense as I was writing a general comment, not directly towards you. My point was specifially to those that have said that D&D made the wrong choice as it's known that Martin imagined two-legged dragons when he wrote the book (which means there was a correct choice in order to bring the book to the screen). If you didn't say that then I wasn't talking about you, and if someone wants to imagine four-legged ones that's of course totally up to the individual since we're all creating our own stories together with the text when we read.

[Unnamed]

Unnamed, on 21 June 2011 - 05:16 PM, said:

"It doesn't matter where he grips it. It's a simple question of weight ratios: A 5-ounce dragon could not carry a one-pound coconut. Look, a dragon has to flap its wings 43 times a second in order to maintain air-speed velocity--am I right?"

"If it was a 4-legged D&D dragon it could do it."

"Well, yes, but not a Valyrian dragon. That's my point."

"Of course, the D&D dragons are non-migratory..."

-VM

It occurs to me that I may have blindsided the dragon debaters with this. So, in the interest of fairness, I have re-interpreted the whole Shae argument, which I have participated in...

"She's no whore!" "This isn't Tysha" "She's a witch!" "Burn her!"

"A witch? Tell me, how do you know that she is a witch?"

"She's really ugly." "She's got a big nose." "She doesn't talk like Tysha." "Well, she turned me into a Stark."

"A Stark?"

"...I got better."

"Gentlemen, please. We have ways of determining if she is a witch. Tell me, what do we burn besides witches?"

"More witches!" "Lannisters!" "Wood."

"Ah, yes. And tell me, does wood sink in water?"

"No, it floats."

"And what else floats in water?"

"Very small rocks." "Dragonflies." "Tyrion's cock."

"Very good....So, if she weighs the same as...Tyrion's cock, then she...floats in water, in which case..."

"She's a witch!"

"Otherwise..."

"Burn her anyway!"

-VM

[Unnamed]

Captain Tripps, on 21 June 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

I find the image of her breast feeding winged reptiles...titillating.

Um, nice wording...the image doesn't exactly make Daeni my dream date, but okay...

(I prefer the hot-tub scene from Ep 1, but to each his/her own.)

"Look, I've put up with your cracker crumbs and giant eggs, but I hope you're not planning on breast-feeding those dragons in my bed..."

-VM

[Mad Sweeney]

Captain Tripps, on 21 June 2011 - 05:00 PM, said:

\

Mirra never says the Horse is the price tho, she merely says it won't cost Dany HER life.  She only mentions that they need the horse's blood.  In the books it's clearer that all the violence that erupts as MDD begins the ceremony is the price being paid.  I don't think MDD intended, in the books, to kill the baby, that was a consequence of Jorah carrying Dany into the tent.  The show depicted it a little differently.  But even there, Dany repeats MDD's line about only death paying for life, and the line about wanting her life, not her screams.  Astute viewers should be able to connect that with the dragon's birth.  

Altho it's heavily implied in the books that the same ceremony that returned thee semblance of life to Drogo started the transformation of the eggs (as they were in the same room, maybe the spell affects any dead thing within range), as Dany is dreaming about them while unconscious after giving birth, and to her they feel warm when she wakes.  A scene or two making that point would have been nice.  MDD's death (and perhaps even Drogo's) is the final spark they needed to hatch, but they weren't just fossils when she placed them on the pyre.

She absolutely did.  Especially if your first 2 sentences are true and the horse wasn't the death-price.  I don't know how it could be any clearer in the books or the show that Rhaego was the price for Drago's "life".

[Mark Antony]

Captain Tripps, on 21 June 2011 - 04:23 PM, said:

http://a1.l3-images....9507e02fe/l.jpg

Most important shot of the series, IMO.  These are the players.  Game is the game.  Always.

Littlefinger, Varys, and the Wire in one post = win

[CryFenril]

Mad Sweeney, on 21 June 2011 - 04:31 PM, said:

You're saying that a whore in a camp takes what she wants?  She rips someone up to get it?  What scene was that?  About the only thing I can remember was the part about talking about her mom and dad, and that only barely fits the "gets what she wants" part of your post.  The fact is, we don't know anything about her, other than the fact that she apparently didn't come from a broken home with an abusive father.  She was still monetarily attached to the ginger cunt a few tents down and switched her attention to Tyrion for nothing other than whore-money.  

As for what Tyrion does or does not appreciate, well he could have any whore in the entire country agree with him on everything.  Nothing about that would make the girl special to him.  One that arouses not only his Lannister weenie but also his intellect (something that very, very few people, much less whores, in the books do) is someone he's much more likely to fall hard for than a simple country girl taken to whoring.

I am thinking of the drinking game, for example - Book-Shae would have giggled and said something like "You'll have to drink, m'lord" and been all coy and smiley about it. Show-Shae shoves the cup at him and says "Drink!" in a rather unpleasant, commanding fashion.