259 replies to this topic

[Mad Sweeney]

Unnamed, on 21 June 2011 - 05:02 PM, said:

All I can say at this point is, I hear what you're saying. And it's still interesting to delve into an alternate interpretation, but I suspect that we've carried this as far as we can. And I probably haven't come any closer to changing your mind than you have to changing mind. Not that I'm telling you to shut up, but I've run out of new things to say. But a fun topic, nonetheless.

-VM

Obviously, I don't know what exactly prompted the eggs to hatch.  The only thing I am 110% positive about is that Dany's baby was the price for the blood magic to keep Drogo alive.  The deformation, the impetus for the eggs to hatch etc  are up for interpretation.  But I honestly can't understand how anyone would not theink that her baby was the price MMD extracted for saving Drogo.  Or that MMD knew/intended Drogo to be a veg as part of her revenge on the Dothraki.  Those two things are clear in the book and thanks to the terrible actress playing MMD, clear by her glance to D's belly in the show.

[Mad Sweeney]

CryFenril, on 21 June 2011 - 06:05 PM, said:

I am thinking of the drinking game, for example - Book-Shae would have giggled and said something like "You'll have to drink, m'lord" and been all coy and smiley about it. Show-Shae shoves the cup at him and says "Drink!" in a rather unpleasant, commanding fashion.

That counts as ripping someone up to get what she wants?  There's no question she's less passive than book Shae but since Tyrion and Tywin and Bronn and Cersei and etc are all different than their book versions, so too will Shae be different.

[Unnamed]

Mad Sweeney, on 21 June 2011 - 06:06 PM, said:

....But I honestly can't understand how anyone would not theink that her baby was the price MMD extracted for saving Drogo....

That's reasonable by your interpretation. Here's mine: I honestly can't understand, if the baby's life was the price all along to turn Drogo into a living vegetable, what possible difference it could have made whether Daeni was in the tent or outside. Or why the baby transformed into a dragon in death. Which is why I think we've reached an impasse.

Of course, part of this is that I never really got the impression that MDD was all that great of a prophesier/manipulator of events, but like most witches, she was ready to take credit for everything after the fact. If she was so damn prescient and powerful as she wants Daeni to think she is, I'd think her city wouldn't have been pillaged by the Dothraki to begin with.

-VM

[CryFenril]

I don't know why, but for some reason when Jorah says "I won't watch you burn!" and his throat gets all tight, I get funny whuppity-whup feelings in my chest. Can that man emote, or what? :-)

[Starky Smurf]

I don't have the patience to search for it through 31 pages, but did anyone else think that looked like the Old Bear sitting to Theon's left in the KING IN THE NORTH scene?

[Unnamed]

CryFenril, on 21 June 2011 - 06:16 PM, said:

I don't know why, but for some reason when Jorah says "I won't watch you burn!" and his throat gets all tight, I get funny whuppity-whup feelings in my chest. Can that man emote, or what? :-)

That's the blood magic, pulling on your life force.

-VM

[CryFenril]

Mad Sweeney, on 21 June 2011 - 06:08 PM, said:

That counts as ripping someone up to get what she wants?  There's no question she's less passive than book Shae but since Tyrion and Tywin and Bronn and Cersei and etc are all different than their book versions, so too will Shae be different.

I just think she's too different. Book-Shae's passivity and flirtiness is completely lacking here. The woman we have in the show is hard, and I would think that said hardness would be unappealing to a man who is used to paying for a woman's affections. But I'll respectfully agree to disagree with you on this one - after all, we each read the books and see them in our own heads, aye?



And Unnamed, if that's blood magic, then count me in for the next round of devotees. I like that feeling of whuppity-whup, heh. I think that one line drew the most intense visceral reaction out of me, in the whole episode. Maybe even the whole series, for some odd reason.

Edited by CryFenril, 21 June 2011 - 06:22 PM.

[Mad Sweeney]

Unnamed, on 21 June 2011 - 06:15 PM, said:

That's reasonable by your interpretation. Here's mine: I honestly can't understand, if the baby's life was the price all along to turn Drogo into a living vegetable, what possible difference it could have made whether Daeni was in the tent or outside. Or why the baby transformed into a dragon in death. Which is why I think we've reached an impasse.

Of course, part of this is that I never really got the impression that MDD was all that great of a prophesier/manipulator of events, but like most witches, she was ready to take credit for everything after the fact. If she was so damn prescient and powerful as she wants Daeni to think she is, I'd think her city wouldn't have been pillaged by the Dothraki to begin with.

-VM

I have no idea where your last paragraph comes from.  She's not all that powerful. She saw a chance to get back at the destroyers of her life by killing their injured khal with her "medicine".  The fact that it snowballed into what it did was a bonus and she took full advantage of that by taking the khal's son as well as the khal.  Simple vengeance.

As I said before, the baby was dead whether they were in the tent or not.  It's exceptionally clear that MMD was talking about the baby as the price for Drogo's life.  The deformation and the hatching of the dragons are above and beyond the simple fact that MMD used the baby's life to reanimate Drogo.

[Mad Sweeney]

CryFenril, on 21 June 2011 - 06:20 PM, said:

I just think she's too different. Book-Shae's passivity and flirtiness is completely lacking here. The woman we have in the show is hard, and I would think that said hardness would be unappealing to man who is used to paying for a woman's affections. But I'll respectfully agree to disagree with you on this one - after all, we each read the books and see them in our own heads, aye?

Well of course she's too different.  Tyrion is massively different too.  He's not deformed, he's not in constant pain from mismatched legs etc...  Some of the people here seem to think that everyone else around Shae being different doesn't mean that Shae should be different.  As to if she's too different... please tell me how it affects their relationship in seasons 2 and 3.  I mean, I haven't seen them yet so I don't know, please enlighten me.  And don't feel as if only you can answer this, all the doom and gloomers that think Shae is too different feel free to chime in and tell me how it negatively affects scripts that haven't been written yet.

[Unnamed]

Mad Sweeney, on 21 June 2011 - 06:21 PM, said:

I have no idea where your last paragraph comes from.  She's not all that powerful. She saw a chance to get back at the destroyers of her life by killing their injured khal with her "medicine".  The fact that it snowballed into what it did was a bonus and she took full advantage of that by taking the khal's son as well as the khal.  Simple vengeance.

As I said before, the baby was dead whether they were in the tent or not.  It's exceptionally clear that MMD was talking about the baby as the price for Drogo's life.  The deformation and the hatching of the dragons are above and beyond the simple fact that MMD used the baby's life to reanimate Drogo.

So, just to be clear, are you saying that the whole bit where she warned Daeni to stay out of the tent was just a misdirection? To what purpose?

The point of my last paragraph is that your description of events pretty much has MDD in complete control, and the various things that happen are all part of her revenge plan, from the moment Daeni "rescues" her. Whereas, I tend to see her as offering what I would call half-assed help, then when things turn ugly, her attitude is 1) you didn't follow my instructions and 2) I don't really care because I never liked you anyway.

Look, a lot of this interpretation is in the nuance. So when you say it's "plainly obvious" that someting happened this way--even though I interpreted it another way--the implication is that I'm illiterate. I'll own up to being crazy, obnoxious, twisted (the list goes on and on), but I am NOT illiterate. At least, I don't think so.

Another clarification: I think I've already agreed that it's clear on the TV show that MDD is planning on the baby dying. I'm specifically referring to the book scene, which was a lot more ambiguous (or, it was to me, anyway).

btw, there's no requirement that we continue this. I've already said that I think we're at an impasse. If we're just going to start re-stating our points more emphatically, well, we'll just be proving that we can both be annoying.

-VM

[CryFenril]

Mad Sweeney, on 21 June 2011 - 06:24 PM, said:

Well of course she's too different.  Tyrion is massively different too.  He's not deformed, he's not in constant pain from mismatched legs etc...  Some of the people here seem to think that everyone else around Shae being different doesn't mean that Shae should be different.  As to if she's too different... please tell me how it affects their relationship in seasons 2 and 3.  I mean, I haven't seen them yet so I don't know, please enlighten me.  And don't feel as if only you can answer this, all the doom and gloomers that think Shae is too different feel free to chime in and tell me how it negatively affects scripts that haven't been written yet.

One thing that is not different about Tyrion is his dislike of other people overshadowing him - evidenced by the bitter way he describes his siblinghood with Cersei as "his greatest achievement". He doesn't like being reminded that he's a dwarf, no matter how much he uses it like armor. So I imagine being ordered about by a whore wouldn't sit well with him. A domineering prostitute doesn't strike me as something he'd like. Can you imagine Tyrion slapping Show-Shae and still having a hand once he'd done it?

And... "Tell you" how it affects their relationship in seasons 2 and 3 since you haven't seen it yet...? There's no need to be harsh, hon, I am simply stating my own personal opinion. Never said I was spouting canon or had any hidden knowledge. Unless you're just being snarky, in which case I will just shrug and say it's really not worth being snarky about. I'm certainly not challenging anyone who likes Show-Shae - simply stating that I, for one, do not.

[The King's Foot]

Good god, this thread has really started plumbing the depths of nonsense!

2 legs or 4 legs, a dragon's a dragon.  Sheesh.  

Shae: look, there comes a time when we all have to accept that the showrunners aren't necessarily going to hew exactly to the text, and in fact they may take really wide turns around some of the plot points.  For example, why Tyrion falls for Shae and how she betrays him.  

Show Shae is interesting to me b/c she's different.  Tyrion is a worldly, sophisticated guy and I think it's totally plausible that he falls for a more worldly, sophisticated whore.  Saying "Tyrion wouldn't do that b/c that makes Shae too much like his sister" is nonsense.  First off, Cersei is NOT worldly.  She's conniving and clever and machiavellian, but NOT worldly.  She hasn't been anywhere outside of Westeros (that we know anything at all about) and her whole universe is focused in on the square mileage of King's Landing.

Book Shae to me always seemed like some older man's fantasy of the shy innocent girl who nonetheless is a beast in the sack but only for him.  I always thought "Tyrion should be smart enough to see through this" but of course he wasn't.  That has a lot to do with Tysha, who we know a ton about from the book but next to nothing about from the show.  So, if they're not going to really go deep on Tysha and what that did to him, why not make Shae a more sophisticted woman for him?

Bottom Line: It's alllll good.

[Ashamanic]

TV Shae is not going to remind Tyrion of Tysha, and without that sense of innocence he shouldn't be able to forget even for a second that she is a whore who is with him for his money

[Unnamed]

Mad Sweeney, on 21 June 2011 - 06:24 PM, said:

Well of course she's too different.  Tyrion is massively different too.  He's not deformed, he's not in constant pain from mismatched legs etc...  Some of the people here seem to think that everyone else around Shae being different doesn't mean that Shae should be different.  As to if she's too different... please tell me how it affects their relationship in seasons 2 and 3.  I mean, I haven't seen them yet so I don't know, please enlighten me.  And don't feel as if only you can answer this, all the doom and gloomers that think Shae is too different feel free to chime in and tell me how it negatively affects scripts that haven't been written yet.

Do I have to be a Doom-and-Gloomer to chime in? I think I've said this at least once, but since you've asked the question...what makes Shae too different is that she is nothing like Tysha. And the whole basis of Tyrion having a steady thing with her is that she is able to seem like Tysha to him. Otherwise, why keep a steady whore, when Ros is, impressively, on every corner of King's Landing?

Not only does she not act anything like the described Tysha, but she outright declares how different she is ("No woman would..." Well, one woman did. Clearly, you ain't her.)

We've all acknowledged that the TV Show ain't the book, and some changes are necessary. But this change is particularly jarring, because it makes the whole Tysha thing more of a macabre detail in Tyrion's life, rather than the central defining event that it is in the book.

Does it ruin the show? Well, no, not for me. It does make those scenes a little painful for me to watch. Mainly, I would say it is a lamentable change, because of the "deformation" of Tyrion's character arc to no particular purpose. For me, it is a change for the worse, with no offsetting improvement to justify it. It is the fly floating in an otherwise tasty bowl of soup...

For a number of people who like the new Shae, this seems an improvement. From my standpoint, whether I like the new Shae is immaterial. I actually don't like book Shae OR TV Shae. But the key question is whether Tyrion would like her, and I have now stated several times why I think he would not. Certainly not well enough to settle down with her and start pretending she's Tysha.

"I like you. You're just like Tysha. Except for the way you look, the way you talk, and the things you do. Otherwise, the resemblance is uncanny."

-VM

[Lord of Oop North]

They are obviously intending for Shae to attract Tyrion by being an equal match for him, as opposed to a flattering whore who will say anything to please him. Something which he has obviously had plenty of experience with. I can see the merit in this approach, which could work equally as well as the book approach, so I think that it's best to reserve judgement.

And just because TV Shae is "hard" and commands Tyrion to drink, doesn't mean that if you put her in a room with Tywin "I like to dress deer while talking to you" Lannister, she wouldn't sing like Sansa.

Edited by Lord of Oop North, 21 June 2011 - 07:18 PM.

[Bronn Stone]

Mad Sweeney, on 21 June 2011 - 03:55 PM, said:

I'm not sure your age theory works.  Tyrion is still the younger brother of Cersei and Jaime.  And although Cersei might not be the hot chick from the books, she's still not supposed to be even in her mid thirties and Jaime definitely does not appear older than early thirties.  So Tyrion is still in his late 20s or at the latest 30-31.  Explaining aged looks on a dwarf is as easy as hot pie.

Cersei married Robert about eighteen years earlier - right after the rebellion.  She was also considered as a bride for Rhaegar.  She was NOT fifteen at the time of her wedding.  She and Jaime are approaching forty at least.  Robert and Cersei have been married almost as long as Eddard and Robert, and the Starks have a son Robb's age.  Nikolaj is 40 and looks it.  Trust me, you'd not think him significantly younger than me (fitter, but not younger) if you met both of us and I haven't seen 40 in some time.

ETA: The timeline works even less in Jaime's case.  The age of majority in Westeros is 16 and you have to have enough time before the war for Jaime to be a knight for at least a couple of years before being elevated to the Kingsguard.

Edited by Bronn Stone, 21 June 2011 - 07:29 PM.

[Captain Tripps]

Unnamed, on 21 June 2011 - 06:33 PM, said:

So, just to be clear, are you saying that the whole bit where she warned Daeni to stay out of the tent was just a misdirection? To what purpose?

The point of my last paragraph is that your description of events pretty much has MDD in complete control, and the various things that happen are all part of her revenge plan, from the moment Daeni "rescues" her. Whereas, I tend to see her as offering what I would call half-assed help, then when things turn ugly, her attitude is 1) you didn't follow my instructions and 2) I don't really care because I never liked you anyway.

Look, a lot of this interpretation is in the nuance. So when you say it's "plainly obvious" that someting happened this way--even though I interpreted it another way--the implication is that I'm illiterate. I'll own up to being crazy, obnoxious, twisted (the list goes on and on), but I am NOT illiterate. At least, I don't think so.

Another clarification: I think I've already agreed that it's clear on the TV show that MDD is planning on the baby dying. I'm specifically referring to the book scene, which was a lot more ambiguous (or, it was to me, anyway).

btw, there's no requirement that we continue this. I've already said that I think we're at an impasse. If we're just going to start re-stating our points more emphatically, well, we'll just be proving that we can both be annoying.

-VM

You're not illiterate because I read the same book as you, and I didn't see anything that indicated MDD intended to take Dany's son as the price from the beginning either.  The price was ALL the deaths that occurred based on the decision to use Blood Magic, but none of those were caused directly by the magic.  The magic just fed off of them.  The child dying was a direct result of Jorah carrying Dany into the tent.  I mean they make it obvious when Dany looks at him and sees his guilt, GRRM makes that much pretty explicit IMO.

TV show, very different take on it, on the whole arc really, from the beginning when Drogo gets the wound.  It's much smaller, and the intention seemed to be that MDD caused the infection that kills Drogo, vs taking advantage of the situation that arose when he ignored her treatment.  So trying to read into the book by what happened on the show is immediately going to lead some astray.

[Eddard Stark]

Bronn Stone, on 21 June 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:

Cersei married Robert about eighteen years earlier - right after the rebellion.  She was also considered as a bride for Rhaegar.  She was NOT fifteen at the time of her wedding.  She and Jaime are approaching forty at least.  Robert and Cersei have been married almost as long as Eddard and Robert, and the Starks have a son Robb's age.  Nikolaj is 40 and looks it.  Trust me, you'd not think him significantly younger than me (fitter, but not younger) if you met both of us and I haven't seen 40 in some time.

Robert, Cersei, Jaime, Ned, etc. are all in their 30's in the books.  Jon Snow and Robb Stark were 15 at the start of AGOT, and born during or at the end of the war.  So I'd assume that Cersei and Robert had been married 14-15 years (since Ned married Catelyn at the start of the war, while Robert married Cersei afterwards).

Robert & Ned were 18 or 19 at the start of the war, so they are roughly 35 at the start of the books.  Cersei and Jaime are ~4 years younger.

[Captain Tripps]

Unnamed, on 21 June 2011 - 06:48 PM, said:

Do I have to be a Doom-and-Gloomer to chime in? I think I've said this at least once, but since you've asked the question...what makes Shae too different is that she is nothing like Tysha. And the whole basis of Tyrion having a steady thing with her is that she is able to seem like Tysha to him. Otherwise, why keep a steady whore, when Ros is, impressively, on every corner of King's Landing?

Not only does she not act anything like the described Tysha, but she outright declares how different she is ("No woman would..." Well, one woman did. Clearly, you ain't her.)

We've all acknowledged that the TV Show ain't the book, and some changes are necessary. But this change is particularly jarring, because it makes the whole Tysha thing more of a macabre detail in Tyrion's life, rather than the central defining event that it is in the book.

Does it ruin the show? Well, no, not for me. It does make those scenes a little painful for me to watch. Mainly, I would say it is a lamentable change, because of the "deformation" of Tyrion's character arc to no particular purpose. For me, it is a change for the worse, with no offsetting improvement to justify it. It is the fly floating in an otherwise tasty bowl of soup...

For a number of people who like the new Shae, this seems an improvement. From my standpoint, whether I like the new Shae is immaterial. I actually don't like book Shae OR TV Shae. But the key question is whether Tyrion would like her, and I have now stated several times why I think he would not. Certainly not well enough to settle down with her and start pretending she's Tysha.

"I like you. You're just like Tysha. Except for the way you look, the way you talk, and the things you do. Otherwise, the resemblance is uncanny."

-VM

Well if, and we have no reason to think otherwise, at this point in the story he still thinks Tysha was just a lying whore, why would he be attracted or seduced into another long term relationship by a similar woman he KNOWS is in it for the money?

I honestly think that's the reasoning.  It's why Shae's response was "you should have known better" when Tyrion told that tale.  Probably something he's thought every day since.  So a woman who doesn't put up the front would have an appeal the average simpering sex worker would not.  He's not going to be comparing everything she does or says to the way Tysha acts.  Makes him a little less pathetic, actually, but maybe some of the sympathy we feel for him in the books comes from watching him delude himself, IDK.

I mean some people fall in love with the same woman over and over, and others run from anyone who reminds them even a little of the one who ripped out their heart.

[Imp]

Re: shae. It's my experience that many people end up with partners who are very similar to their parents / siblings. Even (or especially) when they're uh... on the more abrasive side of things. So there's no real probs on that front for me.

However I must admit I can't remember exactly how the rest of tyrion's story plays out wrt her influence on his character development. Been a long while since I read the books.