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[BOOK SPOILERS] Sex/Romance: What Fans Wanna See in Future Seasons [MEGA SPOILERS


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The sex/romantic relationships are crucial to the success of this series. Getting them right among female audiences is important. Ginia Bellafante reminded us of that fact when she insulted all female speculative fiction fans in her tirade against the show. So I think Game of Thrones, the television series, cataloged under fantasy, the genre, still has a stigma to bear. And that stigma does have a gendered aspect to it ("fantasy=sex deprived boys in basements"). Since Season 1 was a huge success we're seeing that stigma challenged. You've probably already seen it in the comments online ("I hate elves and wizards, but I love this!"). Even better, a strong gender-diverse fan community can blow that stigma to smithereens.

Maybe this topic can be a discussion about how to keep sex/romance fans happy and thriving now that ASOIAF has entered the TV universe. I think most of us are already pretty pleased with the canon (otherwise we wouldn't be here and would have closed the book as soon as Viserys groped Dany). But what about sex/relationship changes from book to screen that could be improved? Have the cast/ages of the characters changed anything for our favorite relationships? Or perhaps there are pitfalls we'd hope the producers would avoid going forward? What I'd like to ensure is that the show avoids potential, serious missteps that could turn women off of the series later on. Most of all, I think its important to offer a female perspective since - no offense to David & Dan - they do not have a full writing staff with diverse women writers. And in my view Deadwood is the ultimate HBO drama which happened to have an amazing staff full of women, and we know how magnificent that show was. (PLEASE lets avoid debates about whether women can write for men or men can write for women).

So this isn't a gender specific topic - all are welcome, but first I would like to entertain the two ways that women read/watch the series slightly differently than men. I'm sure its been discussed on these boards before now, if not with my same conclusions:


  1. One difference I think is in how women love to play around with shipping characters. It's really fun to fantasize about relationships that will never happen in the show/book, but I'm hoping the show could toy with audiences a little (like Sam's gay dreams about Bill in True Blood). These subtle winks to fan ships provokes a lot of excitement in female-centered internet communities. I'm not saying you have to insert new scenes taking up valuable screen time, just have your finger on the pulse on how female fans are playing with the characters.

  2. Another is in how women want to see other women on screen. The show passes the
    , but doesn't score as high as Deadwood--the gold standard IMO. Speaking as a woman I like seeing female characters who talk to each other about something other than men, marriage, or babies. Brienne and Cat, Dany and her handmaidens, Sansa and Cersei - can all have amazing conversations that women audiences will appreciate more if the characters aren't just talking about the men in their lives (Sex & the City failed this test miserably, believe it or not). One exception to the Bechdel test is the acerbic conversation about men's authority between Peggy and Joan in the last season of Mad Men, after
    Spoiler
    Don married his secretary.

Let me just list a few topics that mostly have to do with sexuality and romance in the series and maybe my points will become more clear. These are just my perceptions and aren't framed solely by my identity as a woman, but they do inform it!

  • Jorah and Dany. Lady fans are shipping these two, hard. Just browse any GoT post on Oh No They Didn't for an example. I think GRRM predicted this when he said something to the effect of "Iain Glen just refuses to be unattractive as Jorah." He really is smoking hot and its jarring to my image of him in the books. I'm curious how the writers will handle scenes when he declares his love for Dany. I thought Jorah became overly creepy at that point in the books (suddenly he's talking like the sexist Slaver in Astapor??), which I would hate to see Glen have to play. I thought Jorah became much less complex when he started to harass Dany and posses her physically. I thought to myself "Oh, there we go again with desire having only one kind of flavor...BORING." Desire is a complex thing in itself and I think the show could improve on this aspect of the books. For showJorah, I'd like to see a different type of desire other than overt sexual possession. In fact, showJorah could be completely confused about WHAT to think of Dany. He could have a whole bunch of different desires that he can't quite articulate--neither to himself nor to her. You could add a scene of him alone, talking to himself about it and trying to sort it out. But still let Dany slowly begin to pick up on how their relationship has changed because of unrequited love, thus giving her an underlying reason for his 2nd exile. I'm sure others can come up with better ideas on how to handle these two.

  • Jon & Ygritte. Don't skimp on this, writers!! This is as close as we get to a straightforward (if tragic) love story. Okay yes, Ygritte, like Shae and Jeyne, are "devices" for male character development, but give her as much attention as you would Jorah. A good way to avoid using her as a "device" is to give her a scene of her own without Jon - perhaps talking about birth control with the other Wilding women? Her fierce independent spirit, free of all titles and m'lords and patriarchal rules should be the #1 character trait which I'm sure you'll have no problem developing. It will be fun to see how Jon reacts to all this. Also: I have a special "Jon naked" request, kthanx.


  • Robb & Jeyne. This story doesn't really fascinate me at all but there are some Robb lovers out there who want to see him in more intimate settings other than "badass king/rebel/commander." I'm not too worried about how this is portrayed, but it could be interesting if they allowed audiences to debate the extent to which their love was "set up" by Jeyne's mother. How do you think the sex/marriage scene could be done?

  • Loras & Renly. Obviously women love the Ho yay. Writers: When you gave us that shaving scene, I decided to roll with it. When you made Loras a major player in Renly's bid for the throne I rolled with that too. Obviously you'll never get to True Blood level homoeroticism, but please give the two gay male characters in the series something to do other than doing stereotypically gay things with each other. They have a life together outside of blowjobs, right? Oh, and simply holding hands can convey a lot.

  • Sansa & the Hound. Not touching this one. Others can handle it.


  • Nudity. In this interview David and Dan were asked "why show Hodor nude?" and they give the answer "equal opportunity nudity." Um, what? THIS ISN'T EQUAL!!!! Roz' boobs = Hodor's ass?? Dany's ass = Hodor's penis?? The people whom they have shown nude are the last people I want to see naked (Theon ugh!). So far you have only scored female fan points in my book by showing Khal Drogo's backside and top nudity with Jon/Robb. But there is so much more potential...!

  • Sexposition. Beaten to death, I know. But let me pile on: one or two scenes are okay but really it feels like every episode we have a pre/post coital character monologue. I understand that it works mostly because the bedroom is the only setting where characters can let their guard down, but is this the only place where they can express their deepest desires? Surely Cersei has to eat (exposition at dinner), Tyrion has to study books at his desk (exposition about what he's reading), or Loras has to polish his armor (exposition about whatever).

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Jon and Ygritte is one I'm very much looking forward to. Honestly, apart from Ned/Catelyn, it's probably the most straightforward, easy-to-agree-with relationship in the entire series.

Without going into any details - can't believe you failed to mention Sam and Ginny. Requited but not acted upon failed repression.

Are we doing GoT/Harry Potter mashups now?

:laugh:

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On Jorah.

Very much looking forward to the take on this by HBO. I'm of the opinion that they will play it up in season 2 given that there's not a ton of stuff going on with Dany in S2 otherwise. It's really all acting and directing though. I don't think any scenes will need to be added, just lots of longing looks etc.

I just reread all the aCoK and aSoS Dany chapters, and I have to say that my interpretation has already changed somewhat having seen Iain Glen's kinder interpretation of the character. I used to think the same as you, that Jorah was being unreasonably possessive and jealous... but actually it's not so clear to me anymore. He only touches her once and that is when he kisses her in the first chapter of aSoS. After that, he waits... and waits... and waits for her response. Dany actively avoids him because she doesn't want what he wants, but doesn't want to hurt him either. Also I think she is somewhat confused what she wants. He's pretty frustrated by this, and continues to advise her against trusting others (in large part out of jealousy for a certainty). This pushes Dany to react with some anger "you think if you're the only one I can trust then you can have me, but you won't. I respect, cherish, and love you, but I do not desire you Jorah Mormont".

After this, the next scene they really have together is with Arstan, where they reveal each other's "treachery", and then the banishment. On this point my interpretation has changed even more. Jorah was Dany's man from the moment he saved her from the Wineseller. He sent a message from Qarth only to tell Varys he wouldn't be sending any more. Barristan was being very unfair. I understand Dany's perspective too. Jorah should have shown more respect in front of the court - if he had I think she would have pardoned him. But they are both pretty stubborn. Also Jorah may never have been able to accept her with another man so it's best he's gone...

I think that this relationship will work even better on screen than the book. I think Glen will show Jorah's desire smouldering throughout the season from behind his mask. I think all that Dany (and the audience) will have to do to know the truth is to look at his face when he says "Why, she looked a bit like you, Khaleesi" which is probably in episode 2 of next season. Holy shit sexual tension. And we'll know that she doesn't love him back by her reaction. Both actors are excellent with their faces - no dialogue will even be needed. I think they may end the season with their kiss from the first Dany chapter of aSoS, and use the Jorah/Dany romance as the cliffhanger for S3.

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I don't want this to come off as criticism, because this is an interesting and really well-thought out post (even for a male like me :) ), but I'm curious as to what you want, because I'm not sure from the original post.

Are you simply just asking to have these relationships on screen and paid attention to? I'm certain you will get most of these. They've already started the Dany and Jorah plotline, for example.

Or are you requesting changes to the story? There are Jorah and Dany shippers, in that they appreciate the storyline about their relationship. And then there are Jorah and Dany SHIPPERS, who want them to get together. I'm all for the former, but I find a lot of folks go the latter route -- they want the fairy tale. This isn't a fairy tale story, and I'd rather it stay that way.

I suspect you mean the former - "Please do it right" as opposed to the latter, but it's a real distinction.

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Hi. Interesting subject. I will admit I am a bit lost on this, after all, I am a male lol. I don't plan on refuting your topic. This series, regardless of genre, should be interesting, intriguing, for all genders, ages etc etc I tried to reply to each of you points with my own "knee jerk" reaction. No offense is meant if it comes off that way.

Let me just list a few topics that mostly have to do with sexuality and romance in the series and maybe my points will become more clear. These are just my perceptions and aren't framed solely by my identity as a woman, but they do inform it!

• Jorah and Dany. Lady fans are shipping these two, hard. Just browse any GoT post on Oh No They Didn't for an example. I think GRRM predicted this when he said something to the effect of "Iain Glen just refuses to be unattractive as Jorah." He really is smoking hot and its jarring to my image of him in the books. I'm curious how the writers will handle scenes when he declares his love for Dany. I thought Jorah became overly creepy at that point in the books (suddenly he's talking like the sexist Slaver in Astapor??), which I would hate to see Glen have to play. I thought Jorah became much less complex when he started to harass Dany and posses her physically. I thought to myself "Oh, there we go again with desire having only one kind of flavor...BORING." Desire is a complex thing in itself and I think the show could improve on this aspect of the books. For showJorah, I'd like to see a different type of desire other than overt sexual possession. In fact, showJorah could be completely confused about WHAT to think of Dany. He could have a whole bunch of different desires that he can't quite articulate--neither to himself nor to her. You could add a scene of him alone, talking to himself about it and trying to sort it out. But still let Dany slowly begin to pick up on how their relationship has changed because of unrequited love, thus giving her an underlying reason for his 2nd exile. I'm sure others can come up with better ideas on how to handle these two.

I think Martin implies this, or at least this is how I pictured book Jorah anyhow. I think Dany's beauty is a very small part of Jorah's willingness at the start of his liaison with Dany and Viserys. He clearly is part spy for Robert but as he is with the young Targs, he develops an affinity for Dany. I don't believe he is thinking "Boy I can't wait to nail that chick!", in regards to Dany, at any point. Even after his love become overt for her. I think the implication of him protecting her is that he has stood in the shadows and advised as best as he can but it takes a while for him to really get to know Dany. He sees her basically grow up in front of his eyes, if not both physically and emotionally, certainly at least the latter. He realizes she isn't just a pretty face and a random Targ girl who wants the throne back. She is/has learned how to earn what she gets and can be both hard and sympathetic to others (basically, not showing the massive flaws of her brother and The Mad King). As the journey between them continues, Jorah realizes she is both beautiful (at least in his opinion) and intelligent. Learning these traits of Dany and her coming of age has been a rollercoaster ride of emotions, for both. Jorah, a love-scorned knight who is trying to prove his loyalty is taken with Dany because she is everything a queen should be, but also what every knight/lord/king would want in a wife as well. This wasn't true at first though. She was a naive child. So just as Dany has morphed before Jorah's eyes, so has his intentions and love for her. So, I would disagree with your statement of him looking at her only as a sexual possession for himself. His love for her has been cultivated and bloomed after a long period and after being around someone like that who has become everything Robert had feared she could become, Jorah, at some point, realizes he loves her because she isn't crazy like some of her family and she is an attractive woman.

• Jon & Ygritte. Don't skimp on this, writers!! This is as close as we get to a straightforward (if tragic) love story. Okay yes, Ygritte, like Shae and Jeyne, are "devices" for male character development, but give her as much attention as you would Jorah. A good way to avoid using her as a "device" is to give her a scene of her own without Jon - perhaps talking about birth control with the other Wilding women? Her fierce independent spirit, free of all titles and m'lords and patriarchal rules should be the #1 character trait which I'm sure you'll have no problem developing. It will be fun to see how Jon reacts to all this. Also: I have a special "Jon naked" request, kthanx.

Earlier you mentioned the need for women in this series not to just be talking about the men in their lives and the sex etc etc. But then you suggest she have a scene talking about birth control? Ygritte's character is supposed to be a very self-sufficient, complete opposite of a damsel in distress. Why not have a scene, if you so desire something out of the norm, where she discusses hunting, battle, "current events" gossip as far as the other tribes of wildlings or something more out of the ordinary. I just think that the birth control example falls into the same category that you said you want to get out of.

• Robb & Jeyne. This story doesn't really fascinate me at all but there are some Robb lovers out there who want to see him in more intimate settings other than "badass king/rebel/commander." I'm not too worried about how this is portrayed, but it could be interesting if they allowed audiences to debate the extent to which their love was "set up" by Jeyne's mother. How do you think the sex/marriage scene could be done?

I don't know that this even makes it into the show to be honest. I envision a scene where Rob rides back to Riverrun, explains what happened with Jeyne, Cat flips, Red Wedding, a small 30 second scene where Jeyne's mother meets with Tywin or writes him, or he receives a raven and we see it with the signature, telling us who betrayed Robb. The relationship with Jeyne was never anything that was developed and I could see virtually zero time being given to it, other than the quick talk between Robb and Cat "Oh sorry mom I was hurt, she helped and humped me, I couldn't resist, I love her." Then right on to the Red Wedding after Cat soils herself.

• Loras & Renly. Obviously women love the Ho yay. Writers: When you gave us that shaving scene, I decided to roll with it. When you made Loras a major player in Renly's bid for the throne I rolled with that too. Obviously you'll never get to True Blood level homoeroticism, but please give the two gay male characters in the series something to do other than doing stereotypically gay things with each other. They have a life together outside of blowjobs, right? Oh, and simply holding hands can convey a lot.

I won't disagree with you here. The only explanation, to me, is that the "Is Loras and Renly gay?" question loomed for a long time and so the writers/producers wanted to get that out of the way quickly, perhaps for season two with the little tourney Renly holds, so that we know what the situation is and don't have to re-visit it. If we put ourselves in the shoes of Loras and Renly though, I don't think your suggestion of holding hands is really an option. Renly is amongst the most powerful lords of the Seven Kingdoms because his brother's station as King. He is smart enough to know of Cersei, Varys and to a lesser extent, LF's plots and spies. He knows he can get a BJ from Loras in his own private chambers without anyone finding out. He can't walk around the Tower of the Hand and KL holding Loras' hand because then people whisper and he becomes a target in so many plots. I am guessing the stigma of homosexuality is similar or even more restrictive in this fantasy setting than it would be in our own modern times. And Robert hardly seems like the brother who would tell Renly he loves him unconditionally as a brother, regardless of his sexual orientation.

• Sansa & the Hound. Not touching this one. Others can handle it.

This relationship, for me, holds two keys. Sansa's "waking up party" where she realizes a hot guy (Joff) can be an asshole and a hideous man (Sandor) can be a person who wants to do right but doesn't know how. The Hound isn't a great loving person. But he clearly has been shown as someone who is twisted and has became what he is, in large part, because of his psychotic brother, Gregor. It is also a "road of redemption" for Sandor where he makes a weird connection with Sansa and learns that loving someone or being a good person isn't such a terrible thing and might be more normal than he had thought.

• Nudity. In this interview David and Dan were asked "why show Hodor nude?" and they give the answer "equal opportunity nudity." Um, what? THIS ISN'T EQUAL!!!! Roz' boobs = Hodor's ass?? Dany's ass = Hodor's penis?? The people whom they have shown nude are the last people I want to see naked (Theon ugh!). So far you have only scored female fan points in my book by showing Khal Drogo's backside and top nudity with Jon/Robb. But there is so much more potential...!

As a male, I obviously love to see beautiful, scantily clad or nude women. Of course I don't have to see them every moment of everyday. In the novels though, I felt like many of the sex scenes advanced the story. Dany going to Drogo and taking charge in the one scene was a plug that Dany was a princess/queen who was learning a new land, people, customs and that she had a spirit that was developing that she would adapt to situations rather than be broken, for example. The TV series ahs tried but seemingly mostly failed to show nudity and sex scenes that advance the plot. Roz being with Pyschelle was a scene where we got to see a naked Roz but the basis was to show that Pyschelle wasn't half as decrepit as many thought he was. Of course Roz has been naked enough in the series that everyone jumps up in arms and says "Oh god, her again!".

As I mentioned in another thread, perhaps you ladies will luck out and get a full frontal nude moment with Jaime when he and Brienne are bathing. Hopefully that will slake the thirst of women everywhere. Then again, by that time, Roz will have been naked 6 more times and we might have had people drooling over Mel in season two!

• Sexposition. Beaten to death, I know. But let me pile on: one or two scenes are okay but really it feels like every episode we have a pre/post coital character monologue. I understand that it works mostly because the bedroom is the only setting where characters can let their guard down, but is this the only place where they can express their deepest desires? Surely Cersei has to eat (exposition at dinner), Tyrion has to study books at his desk (exposition about what he's reading), or Loras has to polish his armor (exposition about whatever).

Couldn't agree more with this point.

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The only thing I ask is that we get sex scenes only for relevant characters, for example Cersei/Lancel may not be a romantic relationship but it make sense to be explicit with their relationship..... no sex scenes involving whores who are non-characters in the story...

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And I just want a naked Jon, please. But seriously, although I find Jon and Ygritte very cute together, especially the "lord's kiss" scene, the one who really matters to me is Sansa and Sandor, of which the writers have so far made a poor job. :( On the other hand, I'm sure no one watches GoT for the romance. I think it has become very clear by now, especially after Drogo's death, that this is not a very romantic story, so if they just follow the story as it is told in the books, everything is going to be okay. I also hate this whole shipping thing with a passion. I want the best overall story, not my favourite pair together. This is not a wishful thinking "love trumps all" kind of story.

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There's plenty of sex, both healthy and unhealthy, in the series to keep even the most demanding prurient readers happy. But what about relationships?

Granted, in TV land, sex is the most assured way to make sure to get the viewer's attention. It is almost a given that, if the directors want to make sure you're watching closely, they're going to flash some skin to make you do it. Hence the over-use (IMHO) of "sexposition" scenes.

All that fleshpotting, though, and we have very few healthy intimate relationships. And in many of them, one partner is already dead (or winds up that way). Dany/Drogo, Ned/Catelyn, Jon/Ygritte, Hoster/Minisa, Tyrion/Tysha, all of them formed true and loving bonds, only to have them severed in tragic fashion. Even Tywin is noted to have loved his wife deeply and been affected by her loss.

The fun thing is, one of the "healthiest" (read: most caring and evenly-matched) relationships is the one between Renly and Loras - they share genuine affection and love, evidenced by Loras' statement that "Once the sun has set, no candle can replace it." And once again, tragedy separates them.

Get the feeling that true love is boring (to quote Roland Deschain) and that things don't get exciting unless something bad happens...?

The theme of unrequited love is also a common one, and while this doesn't diminish the tragedy inherent to the situation, it does make it a wee bit overplayed. Book-wise, we have Jorah/Dany, Brienne/Renly, Lysa/Petyr and Petyr/Catelyn, and (in a very subtle way), Sandor/Sansa. All of them experience pain due to the lack of love (or even basic human trust) on the part of the other.

Then there are the loveless couples, and sadly, most of these are married couples. Robert/Cersei, Stannis/Selyse, Lysa/Jon, all are political marriages that produce conflict, discord, and utter lack of desire on the part of at least one of the pair.

So what does this show us? That normal healthy relationships, sexual or otherwise, don't hold a viewing or reading audience for very long. It's the conflict, the drama, the screaming and crying and throwing of dining implements that get our attention. We want to see things get heated. We want to see damage done.

And GRRM delivers in spades.

I don't think a plea for "normal intimacy" would fall on deaf ears, per se, but it would do great harm to the hook of the series. One of GRRM's most endearing (and aggravating) qualities as a writer is that he doesn't shy away from the unpleasant or unfair. If a character is beloved by the readers, good chance he or she is going to be removed in most unkind fashion - because real life happens that way.

And a sucker-punch is a very effective means of attack. Don't like the fact that this shivering little girl-child is only fourteen? Too bad. She's gonna get ridden like a state-fair pony anyway. And you're going to read it, because no matter how disturbing the concept may be, you want to know how it changes her as a person, how it affects her life. You want to know how it ends.

Men who read the books are most assuredly given a veritable feast of lovely young female flesh to ogle, and the onscreen version is no different.

Women reader/viewers are served up a delicious dish of conflict, emotion, obsession, and revenge, and even a brief glimpse of some cute patootie every now and then.

As women are inherently more attracted to emotional disturbance, and men more attracted to physical conflict, it's a fine line to walk to satisfy both. I think both the books and the series do an admirable job of supplying both demands in quantity.

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This show is essentially a tragedy. Or several tragedies. Doomed Love is the overwhelming style of the best romantic subplots. Jon and Ygritte, Lyanna and Rhaegar, Sansa and Sandor, Dany and Drogo, Cersei and Jaime ... none of these work out well for varying reasons, and that's what makes tragic romance.

Honestly I think shippers actually like it when their couple of choice don't get together. After all, you can't exactly write fanfic about what already happens in the show (though of course GRRM doesn't like his fans to write fanfic at all). They prefer fuming about how Harry & Hermione didn't end up together to celebrating Harry & Ginny's happy marriage. There's just no material in happy uncomplicated relationships. Doomed love is the best for shippers!

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  • Jorah and Dany. Lady fans are shipping these two, hard. Just browse any GoT post on Oh No They Didn't for an example. I think GRRM predicted this when he said something to the effect of "Iain Glen just refuses to be unattractive as Jorah." He really is smoking hot and its jarring to my image of him in the books. I'm curious how the writers will handle scenes when he declares his love for Dany. I thought Jorah became overly creepy at that point in the books (suddenly he's talking like the sexist Slaver in Astapor??), which I would hate to see Glen have to play. I thought Jorah became much less complex when he started to harass Dany and posses her physically. I thought to myself "Oh, there we go again with desire having only one kind of flavor...BORING." Desire is a complex thing in itself and I think the show could improve on this aspect of the books. For showJorah, I'd like to see a different type of desire other than overt sexual possession. In fact, showJorah could be completely confused about WHAT to think of Dany. He could have a whole bunch of different desires that he can't quite articulate--neither to himself nor to her. You could add a scene of him alone, talking to himself about it and trying to sort it out. But still let Dany slowly begin to pick up on how their relationship has changed because of unrequited love, thus giving her an underlying reason for his 2nd exile. I'm sure others can come up with better ideas on how to handle these two.

The biggest difficulty here (and what may turn out to be one of the big differences between the books and the series) is that we didn't get a glimpse of what Jorah was feeling until well into the second book - and even then it was limited to sexual expression, as you noted.

It's not until he grabs her in the tent and kisses her that we realize that his relationship with her is based on anything other than a standard attraction for an older male to a young, vulnerable, beautiful, dynamic woman. Even his behaviour at the wine merchant's stand can easily be interpreted as a reclamation of honor, rather than a gesture of affection.

The show's pyre scene, with its revelation of what Jorah really feels, blows that all to hell.

Rather than just the standard honorable, devoted knight, we have a man who has found himself utterly and irrevocably in love with someone, and he looks just as stunned by his own realization of said feeling as he is by her kiss. That one cheek-smooch does more damage than anything else in the series to the poor man's psyche.

The heartbroken delivery of his lines at the pyre, and the look on his face when she kissed him, completely changed his motive as a character for me, and I dug it. Big-time.

This alters their on-screen dynamic considerably, unless D&D plan to make her so completely oblivious that she doesn't notice his feeling for her until much, much later. And I for one am very glad of that change, as it makes their interactions much more interesting for the viewer.

Their conflict is going to happen one way or another - we know that. But to see his feeling develop for her this early in the story makes it much more believable and genuine for me; this isn't a man who conceives a sudden and overwhelming physical passion for someone, this is a man who has lost his heart to a woman who can never love him back, and he knows it. And he stands by her anyway. His torture in doing so is made that much more terrible by the depth of feeling shown here, versus in the books.

To wit, I think a major change in their relationship has already been made, albeit very subtly, and it'll be interesting to see if the rest of the series continues to run with that trend rather than letting book-Jorah take back the role and sit on the sidelines. It may be something as simple as having Jorah's eyes follow her as a scene ends, but I think we'll see a good bit more of what drives him here than we did in the books.

Me like. Me likey much-much.

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If I had to lay any criticism on GRRM's writing, is that he's pretty bad at romance. If the show wants to add or touch up some of the relationships more than the books did, I think they'd certainly be in the right, cause the book itself is extremely gloomy and devoid of any love. As said, Jon/Ygritte is probably the closest we've ever gotten in the series of a romance, and even that ends tragically and early in the series.

As an example, I think the show has already improved the dynamics in certain instances, ie. Drogo/Dany's relationship. I always felt their "love" was rather forced in the book, but for whatever reason, it felt more natural on screen. I was more upset and touched when Dany smothered her sun and stars on the show than I ever felt while reading that scene. In fact, I remember my immediate reaction when reading it in the novel was "good, now she can hook up with a better character than this caricature of a barbarian."

Depending on who they cast for Brienne, Jaime/Brienne's relationship has potential to be more romantically developed on the show than it is n the books.

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This alters their on-screen dynamic considerably, unless D&D plan to make her so completely oblivious that she doesn't notice his feeling for her until much, much later. And I for one am very glad of that change, as it makes their interactions much more interesting for the viewer.

Their conflict is going to happen one way or another - we know that. But to see his feeling develop for her this early in the story makes it much more believable and genuine for me; this isn't a man who conceives a sudden and overwhelming physical passion for someone, this is a man who has lost his heart to a woman who can never love him back, and he knows it. And he stands by her anyway. His torture in doing so is made that much more terrible by the depth of feeling shown here, versus in the books.

To wit, I think a major change in their relationship has already been made, albeit very subtly, and it'll be interesting to see if the rest of the series continues to run with that trend rather than letting book-Jorah take back the role and sit on the sidelines. It may be something as simple as having Jorah's eyes follow her as a scene ends, but I think we'll see a good bit more of what drives him here than we did in the books.

Me like. Me likey much-much.

Yeah it's pretty fucking hot if you ask me. :drool:

I will say one thing, though. Book Dany realizes Jorah's true feelings (if not their extent) pretty quickly - not just when he kisses her. It happens when Jorah tells her about Lynesse in Vaes Tolorro in her first Chapter of aCoK. He finishes the story and gets up hastily to leave, Dany asks "what did she look like" and he answers smiling faintly "why, she looked a bit like you, Khaleesi". Then Dany shivers when she realizes that Jorah wants her.

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She realizes that he desires her, yes. But I don't think she realizes that he thinks of her as anything other than a desirable woman until much later - if ever. His "I have loved you" statement is the betrayal which Quaithe warned her about, and she doesn't seem to realize it until he says it - which indicates to me that she assumed he was just lusting after her in hangdog fashion and pushed other men away from sheer jealousy.

There's a significant difference between being wanted and being loved - she knew he wanted her, but I don't think 'til that moment of banishment that she realized how much he loved her.

The depth of feeling that we see in the show was never shown to us in the books - which is what excites and disturbs me about this change.

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I never really saw the books as romantic, so I wont worry if the show isn't either. I don't remember any truly romantic scenes, except Loras' heartbreak and loss of Renly. I seem to remember most relationships being more emotional connections that hint at possible romantic feelings, rather than true romance. And everything that's possibly romantic is bittersweet or twisted in some way.

If women watch the show and leave it because there isn't enough romance... Maybe they shouldn't watch? The show isn't about romance, it's about power and honor (or lack of).

Although, we all agree the sexposition has to lessen. Most of those scenes were just ridiculous..

Edit: And btw, one of my favorite episodes was written by a woman.

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I liked creepy Jorah of the books, in that I think the issue of women being put on a pedestal was an important enough motif in the novels and an intentional message Martin was making, given the chivalric culture and ethos in which the woman on a pedestal is a common figure.

For me it would be cool if the show preserved the twisted and tragic bent of the books, I feel it's an intentional commentary on romance tropes instead of simply playing those tropes straight, and I like that more thoughtful meta layer of the series. But they need to be careful not to descend into pulp or, at least, unequal opportunity objectification.

I think nudity will depend a lot on what the actors agree to do. A lot of the asymmetry in the show is due to the addition of Ros, at least so it strikes me on initial thought.

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  1. One difference I think is in how women love to play around with shipping characters. It's really fun to fantasize about relationships that will never happen in the show/book, but I'm hoping the show could toy with audiences a little (like Sam's gay dreams about Bill in True Blood). These subtle winks to fan ships provokes a lot of excitement in female-centered internet communities. I'm not saying you have to insert new scenes taking up valuable screen time, just have your finger on the pulse on how female fans are playing with the characters.

  2. Another is in how women want to see other women on screen. The show passes the
    , but doesn't score as high as Deadwood--the gold standard IMO. Speaking as a woman I like seeing female characters who talk to each other about something other than men, marriage, or babies. Brienne and Cat, Dany and her handmaidens, Sansa and Cersei - can all have amazing conversations that women audiences will appreciate more if the characters aren't just talking about the men in their lives (Sex & the City failed this test miserably, believe it or not). One exception to the Bechdel test is the acerbic conversation about men's authority between Peggy and Joan in the last season of Mad Men, after
    Spoiler
    Don married his secretary.

Frankly I'm a woman and I don't recognize myself much into what you consider to be differences in the way women view the series and I find quite sexist the idea that shows or books are widely differently percieved by different genders. Particularly point 1 : I'm really not that into shipping and while it's fun to play a little with attractions between characters I really don't follow stories just to see who will hookup with whom and thoroughly despise shows that cater only to that specific need when they have a far more interesting and compelling story to tell. In the context of a show or a movie I understand it even less : why would I put my energy fantasizing about the relationships of characters when I can fantasize about the acctors (and sometime actresses) in the show themselves to my own benefit ? As for point 2 the Bechdel test is of course important but it's only an aspect of the more general issue of sexism, i.e. the general stereotypisation of women as well as men. Generally speaking sexist stuff won't ruin my appreciation of a story unless it's really rubbing it in. I also do not require a story to have female characters in it to be drawn to it.

As for the show, well certainly relationships are important... among many things. I would not be pleased if they decided to cater more to the needs of shippers.

That said, considering the canon relationships.

[*]Jorah and Dany. Lady fans are shipping these two, hard. Just browse any GoT post on Oh No They Didn't for an example. I think GRRM predicted this when he said something to the effect of "Iain Glen just refuses to be unattractive as Jorah." He really is smoking hot and its jarring to my image of him in the books. I'm curious how the writers will handle scenes when he declares his love for Dany. I thought Jorah became overly creepy at that point in the books (suddenly he's talking like the sexist Slaver in Astapor??), which I would hate to see Glen have to play. I thought Jorah became much less complex when he started to harass Dany and posses her physically. I thought to myself "Oh, there we go again with desire having only one kind of flavor...BORING." Desire is a complex thing in itself and I think the show could improve on this aspect of the books. For showJorah, I'd like to see a different type of desire other than overt sexual possession. In fact, showJorah could be completely confused about WHAT to think of Dany. He could have a whole bunch of different desires that he can't quite articulate--neither to himself nor to her. You could add a scene of him alone, talking to himself about it and trying to sort it out. But still let Dany slowly begin to pick up on how their relationship has changed because of unrequited love, thus giving her an underlying reason for his 2nd exile. I'm sure others can come up with better ideas on how to handle these two.

I don't know. There is more to it than just overt desire of sexual posession, but while Dany doesn't object to his emotional attachment (and has been quite dependent upon it), it's his sexual desire she cannot bear so her POV will gradually focus on that. Jora's position has always been clear : he wants to go away with her from all this and be happy together. He says so right at the end of AGoT. She just didn't understand it at the time because to her at that point love=Drogo, but she will grow to realise that. At the same time Jorah will help her but always in the hope of winning her over eventually, when she sees her quest is fruitless, growing more restless when she actually becomes more powerful and driven.

However I think Dany could have tolerated even that if he hadn't become increasingly dangerous to her own purposes. He continues to serve her yes, but he has developed some sense of entitlement about his place as trusted counsel (hence his displeasure at Barristan's rise), and he is not motivated to see her succeed in becoming a ruler because it would drive her even further away from him. She eventually exiles him not so much because he lusts on her but because he puts her authority in peril by his sense of entitlement and his difficulty to accept her less relying on him. It might be interesting to see how his emotions are conflicting, but I don't see it contradict his increasing creepiness in the eyes of Dany. As Lady Blackfish said, it's less about the desire or unrequited love and more about the comment on chivalry and the woman put on a pedestal figure : even though Jorah "serves" and admires Dany, she would gladly deny her the ability to rise on power on her own terms and authority. And that has little to do with the actor's appearence. In fact there is a chance to make a comment even more the point.

  • Jon & Ygritte. Don't skimp on this, writers!! This is as close as we get to a straightforward (if tragic) love story. Okay yes, Ygritte, like Shae and Jeyne, are "devices" for male character development, but give her as much attention as you would Jorah. A good way to avoid using her as a "device" is to give her a scene of her own without Jon - perhaps talking about birth control with the other Wilding women? Her fierce independent spirit, free of all titles and m'lords and patriarchal rules should be the #1 character trait which I'm sure you'll have no problem developing. It will be fun to see how Jon reacts to all this. Also: I have a special "Jon naked" request, kthanx.
IMHO it would be more interesting to use that time to have a less kind eye on the whole "if you can beat me I'm yours" concept. Since it's shown only through the Jon-Ygritte relationship the notion is is in my opinion heavily romanticised in the books. It could be an opportunity to take advantage of the distance the show has with the POV system to be more pragmatic about it, although I doubt they would.
  • Robb & Jeyne. This story doesn't really fascinate me at all but there are some Robb lovers out there who want to see him in more intimate settings other than "badass king/rebel/commander." I'm not too worried about how this is portrayed, but it could be interesting if they allowed audiences to debate the extent to which their love was "set up" by Jeyne's mother. How do you think the sex/marriage scene could be done?

Exactly as it's shown in the book : we learn about it with Robb setting up his mother for her "forgiveness". After that I don't really care as long as it doesn't take too unnecessary screen time. Even though it would be good to show Robb conflicted between an affection he may not necessarily have taken so far, his sense of honor and his engagements. It should also be made clear hower that the two of them love each other (or at least seem to).

  • Loras & Renly. Obviously women love the Ho yay. Writers: When you gave us that shaving scene, I decided to roll with it. When you made Loras a major player in Renly's bid for the throne I rolled with that too. Obviously you'll never get to True Blood level homoeroticism, but please give the two gay male characters in the series something to do other than doing stereotypically gay things with each other. They have a life together outside of blowjobs, right? Oh, and simply holding hands can convey a lot.

The scene was at the same time pointless and interesting. Showing them intimately interacting with each other and discussing about the politics of the kingdoms was great. Too bad it came off as yet another sex scene bordering on sexposition and as such, pointless. I hope they will take advantage of the scenes where they are shown together in the book to show them more day-to-day marks of affection and not just a sex scene.

  • Sansa & the Hound. Not touching this one. Others can handle it.
They already blew this one in season 1. In particular the Hound is wayyy too decent. They seem to have forgotten that Clegane is a major creep, that he is brutal and a drunk. Yes, he is a broken person with deep down a decent heart but no knowing how to be decent himself. But they made him far too melancholic and nice. I think they need to show him more awkward about Sansa and the way he protects her than he is, and more brutal on the whole, so audiences can hate him and fear him more. That way when he becomes really pitiable after his breakdown, in ASoS and in his references in AFfC, it will be both more meaningful and ambiguous.
However I suppose it will also depend on the road they make Sansa take and if she is more assertive than in the book, as already hinted at in season 1.
  • Nudity. In this interview David and Dan were asked "why show Hodor nude?" and they give the answer "equal opportunity nudity." Um, what? THIS ISN'T EQUAL!!!! Roz' boobs = Hodor's ass?? Dany's ass = Hodor's penis?? The people whom they have shown nude are the last people I want to see naked (Theon ugh!). So far you have only scored female fan points in my book by showing Khal Drogo's backside and top nudity with Jon/Robb. But there is so much more potential...!

Yeah that "equal opportunity nudity" comment is pure BS. However while I would appreciate more real equal opportunity in nudity, I'm not fond of gratuitious nudity either. So nudity of both sexes yes but it better have a point. And of course not so much sexposition, you have said all there is about it. They are the more pointless of the added segments, and Ros can be happy I hate TVShae so much because otherwise she would be on to of my "must die" list.
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I don't really care if there's less or more or who it involves. My only concern is if it comes off as contrived it cheapens the show as a whole.

It just so happens that the most explicit scenes from season 1 were the ones that seemed most contrived, to me.

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  • Jorah and Dany. Lady fans are shipping these two, hard. Just browse any GoT post on Oh No They Didn't for an example. I think GRRM predicted this when he said something to the effect of "Iain Glen just refuses to be unattractive as Jorah." He really is smoking hot and its jarring to my image of him in the books. I'm curious how the writers will handle scenes when he declares his love for Dany. I thought Jorah became overly creepy at that point in the books (suddenly he's talking like the sexist Slaver in Astapor??), which I would hate to see Glen have to play. I thought Jorah became much less complex when he started to harass Dany and posses her physically. I thought to myself "Oh, there we go again with desire having only one kind of flavor...BORING." Desire is a complex thing in itself and I think the show could improve on this aspect of the books. For showJorah, I'd like to see a different type of desire other than overt sexual possession. In fact, showJorah could be completely confused about WHAT to think of Dany. He could have a whole bunch of different desires that he can't quite articulate--neither to himself nor to her. You could add a scene of him alone, talking to himself about it and trying to sort it out. But still let Dany slowly begin to pick up on how their relationship has changed because of unrequited love, thus giving her an underlying reason for his 2nd exile. I'm sure others can come up with better ideas on how to handle these two.

I disagree pretty strongly with the bold. I thought the period after Jorah professes his love for Dany was the point at which he became his most interesting. Firstly he pretty clearly wanted Dany for far more than simple physical possession, but in alot of ways he tried to continue to be the strong dependable protector that defined his relationship with Dany from the beggining. That was never going to work though, because how Dany saw that behavior had changed irrepairably. Jorah is clearly someone who falls too deeply into obsession with women, and his hopeless yet hopeful devotion for someone who wasn't attracted to him really fleshed him out as a character for me. In this sense I completely agree that a good looking Jorah doesn't fit anywhere near as well as the swarthy, hairy and physically unattractive man he was in the books. The clumsy way Jorah professed his love, and his inability rekindle the platonic side of their relationship will really resonate with anyone who has gotten the "I only see you as a friend" treatment. On the flip side how Dany's starts to see Jorah as someone who "only wants one thing" is something I'm sure will resonate with plenty of women.

Seeing how overbearing Dany finds Jorah kindled the thought for me that maybe his relationship with his former wife may not have been the simple "snake woman steals everything from loveblind man" story it seemed at first glance. You start to see the side of the man that the woman trapped on a cold lonely island clearly saw.

I hope they keep it as close to the books as possible to be honest. Just because it's unpleasant, doesn't mean it won't make great TV ;)

  • Robb & Jeyne. This story doesn't really fascinate me at all but there are some Robb lovers out there who want to see him in more intimate settings other than "badass king/rebel/commander." I'm not too worried about how this is portrayed, but it could be interesting if they allowed audiences to debate the extent to which their love was "set up" by Jeyne's mother. How do you think the sex/marriage scene could be done?

I personally hope they don't overplay the role of momma Westerling and downplay the role of Robb's weakness in that relationship. BookRobb is a 15-16 year old boy who hasn't really discovered sex yet. He's overcome by something he doesn't fully understand and his almost childlike sense of honor, his impetuous nature, as well as his relationship with his half brother and father all combine into him making a huge mistake. In the end he's brought down by the same thing that brought down his father, his honor.

I'd like it if they manage to amplify that side of the story, but as they've made Robb very much a badass cardboard cutout so far, while making him older and putting less emphasis on his teenage uncertainty, I'm thinking they'll go with the Tywin/treachery angle which would imo be a shame.

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