151 replies to this topic

[Ser Pistus]

zephyr, on 23 June 2011 - 08:14 PM, said:

(...) breaking his oath as a Kingsguardsman by slaying the king. About the worst way you can break that oath.

I guess we were not reading the same book. In my book, killing Aerys was a heroic deed, risking his own life to save the lives of thousands.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

He didn't risk his life. Aerys was no match for him martially and there weren't any other guards around.

[Rarm]

While I think losing his sword hand was a big part of his transformation, the turning point that's secondary is important too. The disconnect from Cersei is big. and I think it will be a integral part of his future. Jaime is a lot like a little kid sometimes he often acts impulsively and immaturely, he's arrogant and selfish. Now yeah there are probably a lot of adults who are like that 24/7 but he also has  moments of intelligence and tact. By seeing his sisters 2 faced nature he's losing that childish part of himself. GRRM always throws a curveball but I would hope that he somehow redeems himself for what he did to Bran [I consider that his worse act of course]Jaime is one of my favorite POVs and I think it's because he's probably the only character I have a completely different opinion about after getting inside his head. When we finally got a Cersei POV it just confirmed that she was the evil bitch we had come to know but Jaime was a completely different story.

[Shakey]

Quote

He didn't risk his life. Aerys was no match for him martially and there weren't any other guards around.

He did indeed risk his life.  Not specifically from the frail king, but from those who would enact the King's Justice should things play out differently.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Shakey, on 24 June 2011 - 01:02 AM, said:

He did indeed risk his life.  Not specifically from the frail king, but from those who would enact the King's Justice should things play out differently.

Rhaegar was dead, the war was lost, Lannister men were storming the Red Keep. With Ned's army right behind them. I think it's safe to say there weren't going to be anyone enacting King's justice on behalf of Aerys.

After he killed Aerys, did any one come after him, did he have to defend himself from any one?  Nope. He just sat there and then Ned showed up.

Jaime was never in any physical danger from any repercussions of killing Aerys.

Edited by The Scabbard Of the Morning, 24 June 2011 - 01:08 AM.

[Ser Pistus]

The Scabbard Of the Morning, on 24 June 2011 - 12:59 AM, said:

He didn't risk his life. Aerys was no match for him martially and there weren't any other guards around.

"There weren't any other guards around"? In a king's castle? You must be joking.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Ser Pistus, on 24 June 2011 - 01:06 AM, said:

"There weren't any other guards around"? In a king's castle? You must be joking.

Okay, tell me, what did he do after he killed Aerys, did he fight any one coming to arrest him for his deed? Or did he just sit there?

[Ser Pistus]

The Scabbard Of the Morning, on 24 June 2011 - 01:09 AM, said:

Okay, tell me, what did he do after he killed Aerys, did he fight any one coming to arrest him for his deed?

No, luckily for him, the arriving men were Lannisters. But they could have been loyalists.

[Ser Pistus]

Let us see Jaime' options after he hears the king's mass-murder plan.

1. Run. Dress as a common man-at-arms and try to escape the armageddon.
2. Stand there and wait until the wildfire explodes and everybody dies screaming. (Including the king, mind you.)
3. Slay Rossart, slay Aerys (before he finds another guy to bring his order to the pyromancers) amd slay the pyromancers as well.

A common guy would choose Nr 1.

Westeros ethics probably tell you to choose Nr 2.

Jaime, however, realized that he must break one wow or another. If he does nothing, he breaks his knightly wow to protect the weak and innocent. So he chose Nr 3, the only heroic and humanist choice. He chose to do what must be done.

Edited by Ser Pistus, 24 June 2011 - 01:42 AM.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

But he didn't risk his life doing it, you can agree with what he did without exaggerating the cost his action.

[-42-]

If you want to crucify Jaime, slaying Aerys is probably the worst case you could have laid out. I understand hating him for kicking a child out a window, but the regicide of a madman isn't all that bad (especially considering the lives spared).

[Ser Pistus]

-42-, on 24 June 2011 - 01:33 AM, said:

If you want to crucify Jaime, slaying Aerys is probably the worst case you could have laid out. I understand hating him for kicking a child out a window, but the regicide of a madman isn't all that bad (especially considering the lives spared).

Yes. Right now, I think that on Jaime's list there are two terrible crimes and two heroic actions.

His worst crimes:
1. Bran
2. Tyrion and Tysha

His heroisms:
1. Aerys
2. Going back for Brienne

Any additions?

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I don't count Tyrion/Tysha against Jaime. He didn't even know that Tywin intended to do what he did. All Jaime thought was the Tywin wanted him to lie so they can annul the marriage.  Yes he kept the secret, but overall he's like 1% responsible and Tywin 99% responsible.

I do fault Jaime for committing incestuous adultery against the King he swore to protect and complicit in putting on the throne a false heir produced by that adultery.

[Sega AM2]

Ser Pistus, on 24 June 2011 - 01:38 AM, said:

Yes. Right now, I think that on Jaime's list there are two terrible crimes and two heroic actions.

His worst crimes:
1. Bran
2. Tyrion and Tysha
3. Having an incestuous affair with his sister
4. Having bastard offspring with the queen
5. Having his bastard offspring sit on the Iron Throne illegally
6. Killing Aerys instead of holding him hostage
7. Leaves thousands of jars of dangerous wildfire hidden in buildings in King's Landing

His heroisms:
1. Aerys
2. Going back for Brienne
3. Hunting down the remaining pyromancers after King's Landing fell

Any additions?

Jaime didn't need to kill Aerys. He kills the first pyromancer and the second and third do not act without the order of Aerys. And later after King's Landing falls, Jaime kills those pyromancers anyways, without holding a trial or warning the city about the wildfire stashes and caches. Tyrion is the one who clears the city of the leftover wildfire and it is coincidental that he discovers the stashes. Had Jaime simply held Aerys hostage he could have saved the city as well. But he deliberately kills the Mad King because he knows that Aerys only took him as a Kingsgaurd to mess with Tywin. It's personal for Jaime. He didn't need to kill Aerys at all but he personally decides to kill him to excuse his own behavior in the past of overlooking Aery's insanity. Jaime feels dirty for watching Aerys burn people alive and rape the queen so he extracts his own personal revenge on the Mad King.

And right after Robert pardons Jaime and keeps him as a Kingsguard what does he do? He starts sleeping with Cersei and gives birth to Joffrey...which causes as much chaos as anything else we've seen in the story so far. Jaime even realizes that Joffrey was as mad as Aerys and thinks that his own son "deserved to die". So 'honorable' Jaime kills the Mad King and plots IMMEDIATELY to put his bastard incestuous offspring on the Iron Throne. And people think he's noble at that point?

I understand that people defend Jaime because he's an amazingly well written and deep character. He's one of my favorite characters without question. But he's probably one of the least honorable characters in the entire story. His exchange in Feast where he is verbally ripped into by Brynden Tully sums him up perfectly. He is a liar and an oathbreaker who conveniently kills the Mad King by stabbing him in the back so he can clear the way for a Lannister on the throne. Jaime even sits on the Iron Throne knowing fully that Cersei will likely produce a child to sit there one day.

And how stupid is Jaime not to disclose that there are giant dangerous stashes of wildfire littered around the city? Tyrion is furious that the pyromancers were storing wildfire near civilians as it could have caused thousands of deaths by accident. But Jaime? Once he gets his personal revenge on the Mad King at the three pyromancers he doesn't care at all about the civilians.

[Misanthrope]

SirPipeWeed, on 23 June 2011 - 02:28 PM, said:

Does anyone else think that by the time the series is over, Jaime Lannister will be a revered as a hero?  To me, he is the most interesting character in this series.  It's almost like he knows everything he does is wrong and deep down inside he hates himself for it, and actually wants to die, yet at the same time, he almost resides to the fact that he is who he is so f it.  


I don't know, I have a really bad feeling that Jaime is going to be one of my favorite characters before it's all done.

I can't stand him, the sooner Martin kills Jaime off the better.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

Bizarrely, I admire Jaime for doing what he did in killing Aerys. It's just that he hasn't done anything as heroic or honourable as that ever since.

And I don't mind the book calling him kingslayer over and over either because he is an oathbreaker after all. Look at the Catelyn-Sansa-Arya-Riverrun situation.

[Misanthrope]

Podrick + Arya = Win, on 24 June 2011 - 03:21 AM, said:

Bizarrely, I admire Jaime for doing what he did in killing Aerys. It's just that he hasn't done anything as heroic or honourable as that ever since.

And I don't mind the book calling him kingslayer over and over either because he is an oathbreaker after all. Look at the Catelyn-Sansa-Arya-Riverrun situation.

Bran out the window is the one I can't get past.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

Oh I think Jaime is scum too. Its just that killing Aerys was his only shining point.

[Ser Pistus]

Podrick + Arya = Win, on 24 June 2011 - 03:27 AM, said:

Oh I think Jaime is scum too. Its just that killing Aerys was his only shining point.

And what about jumping into a bear pit to rescue a maiden?

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

Don't care about Brienne. Westeros policy of chivalry be damned.  

Edited by Podrick + Arya = Win, 24 June 2011 - 03:40 AM.