Neglected cultures in Scifi and Fantasy

[quirksome]

Hi Jellybear, welcome to the board and awesome first post. Been meaning to respond for a while, a lot of good stuff there!

1. Some of you pointed out that including a character or even an entire culture from an outside western Europe background not only requires an enormous amount of research from the author but also often hardly works because too much things have to be explained (how do they got there, what do their symbols mean and so on).I think that doesn't have to be necessary, take James Clavells books for example, especially “Shogun”.... This concept could easily adapted for a fantasy setting. And it works just as well the other way around. Put a foreign character in a past western culture and stories will pop up around him like mushrooms after a rain. Shakespeare did it 1603 with “Othello”, for example. So I don't think that problems of making the story work are the reason why non-white characters or cultures are so underrepresented in Fantasy books compared to SciencesFiction or Thriller novels.

True. Also, given the internets (Google streetview! travel sites!) you could probably get to a reasonably "foreign" location mentally :) I haven't read Shogun but I wouldn't mind visualising a place through someone's reactions to its alienness and learning about customs etc, done well this gives you a lot of insight into a character. Paolo Bacigalupi does this nicely with the American in The Windup Girl, which is set in a very vividly realised future Thailand. There's fecundity and richness and optimism and all he can see with his corporate mindset is how to exploit it.

2. I believe the reason lies in the definition of Fantasy itself. Every time someone starts to write a genre book he or she has to decide which stereotypes of this genre should be followed and which will be broken. The cliche about Fantasy is: noble kings and knights fight to save beautiful princesses and slay dragons only with the help of their sword and a wizard. (Here lies a major difference to ScienceFiction which includes diversity of characters with its aliens and robots even in its most stereotypical form, while Fantasy draws a narrow picture of very blond princesses and princes.)

George R.R. Martin decided to give his women swords and his noble knights can be counted with one hand. He stuck with the dragons through and only varied the hair and eye colors of his people. Maybe he was afraid of overloading the story since the list of his underdogs already contains fighting women, bastards and a human dwarf. Maybe after tossing so many Fantasy cliches over board, he figured the population of Westeros has to appear like King Athurs people to make it still recognizable as a Fantasy setting. Whatever it was, it had nothing to do with realism, since Fantasy is based on legends and myth like the King Arthur Saga (for the characters) or the Nibelungs (for the fairy animal zoo) not on historical events.

In order to make a story set in the Middle-Ages more realistic one has to actually increase the diversity of cultures. I mean this era actually started with the migration period when Europe was just one big melting pot of people from all ends of the former Roman Empire and for the 1000 years that followed Central Europe was never isolated. It was bound by war and trade to Vikings, Mongols (who defeated an 25.000 men strong army of Hungarian and German knights in 1241) and Arabs (who ruled major parts of Spain and the Balkan Peninsula for most of the Middle-Age). The people may not lived as mixed up as today but they met each other while traveling on crusades or through the trading empires of Venice and the Hanse.

Agreed with the tropes and analysis of the Middle Ages in Europe. More mixed up people and interconnected trade please!

Actually I remember a lot of Fantasy books dealing with these things and wondered a moment why none of you had mentioned them, well almost all of them are from non-British writers. So I searched for reoccurring patterns and motives in the fiction of certain countries (that I read before). In my experience British and Japanese fiction have a bit of an insular point of view on the world. Often the stories take place on a single "continent" that is strongly divided into smaller parts, which are totally occupied fighting each-other. There is another continent on the other side of a small sea but the inhabitants are similar since that's where the population of the story-central continent originally came from. The real strange places are even further away.

The French, German, Russian and Chinese writers often prefer motives of journeys, like a group of people wander around in unknown territory meeting strange civilizations (inspired by Maro Polo, or "Journey to the West") or massive war stories about clashing cultures (crusade like) or a country facing a huge invasion (very popular among the Chinese). The main difference is that the latter motives all include strong interaction between cultures, while the insular stories simply don't need that.

Really interesting. Anyone else see this trend? Btw I am quite envious you can read in so many languages!

3. My personal definition of Fantasy is even simpler than the one mentioned above: a story set in a world with magic instead of technology. And stories like that are written in every country with an existing book market. All you have to do is get your hands on a translation. That can be quite difficult at times, but it 's getting better. Around here the people discovered the great Russian dark (urban) Fantasy (almost no Vampires, thank God) because of Sergei V. Lukyanenkos outstanding Watcher Quadrology, but there are a lot more like Ekaterina Sedia and Wladimir G. Sorokin. After searching a bit I even found Latin American authors (Julio Cortazar, Jorge Luis Borges) and this about African myth http://www.sffworld.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-6462.html . And since Asia is in vogue at the moment there are lots of western writers adapting Chinese or Japanese look a like settings for their Fantasy novels. (Someone made a list here: http://www.amazon.com/alt-Asia-fantasy-and-sci-fi/lm/31H2S1VIZS3C5) I prefer Asian authors on that matter, Banana Yoshimoto or Haruki Murakami for example write such subtle and melancholic Fantasy, it's bewitching.

English Fantasy books with black skinned main characters I found are S. P. Somtow's “Darker Angels” (set during the American civil war and includes lot of Voodo, the author is Thai-American by the way) and the books of R. A. Salvatore about his black skinned elfs (sorry, if they already have been mentioned). There are a lot more from French, German and Russian authors (which I read a lot), but I doubt they are available in English.

Yes, HE also mentioned there is lots out there... but it's still hard to A. get translations and B. for the older stuff, find out which are the good translations! Luckily the book market is finally responding. Thanks for the recs (love Murakami) and will check them out.

[Chirios]

Pretty much every culture that is not English has been neglected by fantasy authors.

[The WaterDancer Knight]

Pretty much every culture that is not English has been neglected by fantasy authors.

It's true only for Anglo-Saxon authors. Authors from other cultures have no problem introducing non-white characters and non West-European cultures in fantasy. Too bad few are translated in english and amongst them very few get published in the USA.

[Sci-2]

It's true only for Anglo-Saxon authors. Authors from other cultures have no problem introducing non-white characters and non West-European cultures in fantasy. Too bad few are translated in english and amongst them very few get published in the USA.

Now *this* is interesting. Do you have some examples?

I really hope at least some of the people who wanted to see cultural diversity in SFF are writing some short stories. Would be cool to see them published. And it beats the sob story Aarti and others put up. Sheesh.

I tried to write a story with genuine gay characters, just to see the difficulty in switching up my mindset and frankly it sucked after a few lines.

Part of this is likely my lack of writing experience/ability, but I really wonder if people who are wanting authors to research their cultures and write about them realize how hard it is to get into a groove - you can't force it, you need to be inspired. Look at Gaiman's Anansi Boys, I remember those Anansi stories as a kid as well, Spider was the coolest, and I'm sure hearing/reading some good tales is what inspired him to write that book.

Edit: Whoops, it was Aarti and some other people's articles I thought were whiny, not Rose Fox's which I hadn't read yet. Apologies to Rose Fox.

[Strife]

It's true only for Anglo-Saxon authors. Authors from other cultures have no problem introducing non-white characters and non West-European cultures in fantasy. Too bad few are translated in english and amongst them very few get published in the USA.

Good point. I don't think the solution is to tell authors to stop writing about the Western-European inspired fantasy they prefer and write something more diverse. The solution is to start to actually publish non Western-European fantasy from people who are interested in writing it. Or translate what's already written.

[Sci-2]

Good point. I don't think the solution is to tell authors to stop writing about the Western-European inspired fantasy they prefer and write something more diverse. The solution is to start to actually publish non Western-European fantasy from people who are interested in writing it. Or translate what's already written.

honestly, more I try to read what some people have written, long screeds against the white boogeymen, I think the solution is for people to get over themselves and either push to create a market or move on.

I am just amazed that in a world with real problems people can use terms like "cultural cripples" to describe the themselves, despite being among the diverse peoples that live enjoying the freedoms of the Western World - a place far for appreciative of multiculturalism than any I, at least, have experienced.

My big problem with this is there seems to be this idea that any prejudice is equal to the deepest, worst prejudice a person can face and that white people have some incredible conspiratorial power over the publishing industry. Not having your race in a fantasy book is not the same as being murdered for wearing a dress or trying to climb out of your religiously/racially ascribed social position.

This doesn't mean the issues aren't important, but the melodrama makes me cringe. Blog posts written by people who ignore their own advantages (wealth, education, good parents, etc) to pour on the white guilt are, frankly, worthy of contempt. There are many kinds of privilege and a spectrum of prejudice faced even by people of different races. The "Colored against Whites" mentality is disconcerting and disingenuous to say the least.

[Joanna vander Poele]

Where did this come from?

[Lily Valley]

Did anyone talk about Magic Street by Orson Scott Card? This book was written by him in response to several of his friends who spoke about the lack of black characters in SFF novels. It takes place in a black middle class neighborhood in California, he said it was very difficult for him to write.

On a completely unrelated note, I would love to read some translated works of SFF if anyone has suggestions.

[Galactus]

You know, now that I think about it, I DO read a shitload of non-western fantasy.

Admittedly, it's almost all japanese (and occasionally a korean manwha) but still.

[Lily Valley]

You know, now that I think about it, I DO read a shitload of non-western fantasy.

Admittedly, it's almost all japanese (and occasionally a korean manwha) but still.

Do you have favorites? If you've posted them on another thread could you send me a link? Thanks.

[Sci-2]

Where did this come from?

Went through the linked threads some more. Read a lot of talk about white privilege and raping of cultures accounting for the success of novelists, lots of talk about victimization because white people write books about dragons, etc.

As a person of color, I hate that minor issues get conflated with the big ones and when people play blame games that result in attacks on the white "race" that is a majority in the West. Reminds me of people complaining about racists slogans on T-shirts and not worrying about the sweatshops in which they were made.

Wasn't just this specific issue (which again is important on some level), but speaking to a larger political problem that leads to real issues being glossed over. (The "well if this is all that's left of racism, guess we're doing good eh?" argument.)

Where are the people volunteering to edit anthologies, the people willing to contribute their time and money? There is such a thing as Open Design in roleplaying games at least - you pay the person ahead of time for the product you want to create, and as a patron you have some right to decide the final product. No one has mentioned they might want to pay the authors for their time.

[jellybear]

Hi Jellybear, welcome to the board and awesome first post. Been meaning to respond for a while, a lot of good stuff there!

Thank you for responding!

True. Also, given the internets (Google streetview! travel sites!) you could probably get to a reasonably "foreign" location mentally :) I haven't read Shogun but I wouldn't mind visualising a place through someone's reactions to its alienness and learning about customs etc, done well this gives you a lot of insight into a character. Paolo Bacigalupi does this nicely with the American in The Windup Girl, which is set in a very vividly realised future Thailand. There's fecundity and richness and optimism and all he can see with his corporate mindset is how to exploit it.

This goes straight to my reading list :)

Really interesting. Anyone else see this trend? Btw I am quite envious you can read in so many languages!

I should clarify this: I have read books from all these countries, but since I can read books only in German and English, I read only these in the original and depend on translations for the others.

The trends I discribed are manly visible on the german market which is the one I know.

Yes, HE also mentioned there is lots out there... but it's still hard to A. get translations and B. for the older stuff, find out which are the good translations! Luckily the book market is finally responding. Thanks for the recs (love Murakami) and will check them out.

For me it feels a bit strange to think that a book-market which contains the U.S., Britain, Ireland, Southafrica, Canada and Australia could be short on translations. So I looked some people up. I got mixed results. All the writers I mentioned in my first post have been translated into English. Sergei Lukyanenko's awesome "The Night Watch" was even published twice (the British version looks very beautiful). Additionally you got Andrzej Sapkowski from Poland who has a huge fanbase in Europe, and Carlos Ruiz Zafón from Spain who is more on the Horror side of Fantasy. Regrettably, from France only the classics are available: René Barjavel, Pierre Boulle (Planet of Apes) and Jules Verne. Japanese authors almost only get the mangas they write for published, their books are rare. And the translations from Germany focus on the (appear-to-be) children's books by Michael Ende, Walter Moers (Rumo is hilarious and not appropriate for children at all!) and Wolfgang Hohlbein ("Märchenmond" -> "Magic Moon" was the one that made me a Fantasy fan :) ) with Markus Heinz' Fantasy-Actioner "The Dwarves" being the only detectable exception.

There are fewer than I expected, still I think the difference between the German and English bookstores is not so much the amount of translations published but the attention and marketing they get. Lukyanenko tops the bestselling lists with most of his works here, for example. Ironically he reached fame in Germany through a movie based on his books like lots of other writers from abroad. I should mention that 99,9% of the foreign films released for cinema and TV are dubbed in German giving a mass audience very easy accesses to the story.

There is something else I wonder about, how is it that all the books and writers brought to the US by the immigrants get so few attention? I mean there has to be a market for translated books read by second or third generation Americans that prefer reading in English but are interested in their peoples literature.

[Sci-2]

There is something else I wonder about, how is it that all the books and writers brought to the US by the immigrants get so few attention? I mean there has to be a market for translated books read by second or third generation Americans that prefer reading in English but are interested in their peoples literature.

Hmm, another good point. I do wonder about this. There are good points dealing with the trials of immigrant families or those whose ancestors were forcefully brought to the US (and those the US overran in its creation). I think a lot of the mainstream media points to films about these experiences over books.

The scriptures of different cultures of course are translated (and freely available) but I am not sure about general literature.

[voodooqueen126]

The flip side of this is are Nigerian authors writing fantasy or science -fiction (and if not why not) and if they are why aren't we seeing any of those books up here in the northern hemisphere?

And not just Nigerians either - come on Ethopians tell us about the real Gondor!

There's been some coverage on Larry's website about Latin American science-fiction and I believe he's been involved in trying to get it to a wider non-spanish speaking audience. Which kind of implies that there are worlds and universes of writing that we are missing out on. A big part of the problem I think is that our book markets are insular. Apart from Stand on Zanzibar when else did Indonesia get a mention in science fiction, or Hindu gods outside of Lord of Light?

I am writing a novel, which was once fantasy, but is now alternative history with slight elements of magic, where one of the main characters/narrators is Buginese.

The research (and the scarcity of information) involved in creating characters/world building when you are basing the cultures off non-european people is enormous.