233 replies to this topic

[kauldron26]

I came accross an interesting link on Pat's website.  The article focuses on What Cultures Are Neglected in Science Fiction and Fantasy.

http://www.sfsignal....on-and-fantasy/

I found the article very interesting, compelling and necessary.  It made me feel hopeful about speculative fiction's future.  However, I would like to understand why these discussions and ideas genuinely upset some folks.  I'm a black guy (Nigerian/American) and I have been reading scifi and fantasy for most of my life.  As much as I enjoy and love it, sometimes it feels like my favorite genre never considers people that look like me or factor in the possibilities of non-white cultures or settings.  I remember as a kid everytime I read a line that had "bronze skin" "dark thick hair" I always assumed the characters were of possibly African descent.  I also remember getting older and realizing all that meant was a tan and how crushing that was.

I love ASOIAF to death however, there are next to no non-whites in that entire series, and more often that not they are given insignificant roles, some might argue negative ones.  The main black person in that novel is a prostitute that gets whipped to near-death?  Why is that? (I won't even discuss portrayals of the dothraki savages)  Why couldn't a major house be of a different color? My question revolves around the fact that the series is FANTASY not historical fiction.  

Westeros is a CONTINENT.  How and why has there been no immigration?  Are you telling me that in the 5000+ years of ASOIAF history (where science never evolves, people do not travel and resettle?) why neglect the possibility of characters that are different?  You can't say its because of the authors geography.  GRRM lives in the US, the ultimate melting pot.  Then you have authors like Kate Elliot.  I know her Crown of Stars Series is not perfect, but damn it that series showed a world that was not limited by geography, race or history.  And that had an impact on me.  

I get frustrated when some individuals get angry so quickly that those of us FANS someday want to see a character we can actually relate to or one that represents us. Now if it was an author from Bangladesh writing about Bangladesh culture, that's a different issue.  I can't expect the author to have Brazilian main characters. But if you're from the UK or US and you're writing literature that intentionally do not reflect your own world and all the folks that live in it, it kind of really sucks for some fans.  

Please, I am not trying to flame or whatever.  I want to understand why this topic upsets some people.  Some folks can't possibly understand how conflicting it is to love an author's work to death and even recommend it to legion of folks and yet say "damn I wish there was someone like me in this book"  It sucks.  Yes and you can go ahead and say, why don't you write your own books, authors can do whatever the hell they want.  The point is we love the world the author has created.  Is it so terrible to want to be a part of it?

Edited by kauldron26, 24 June 2011 - 02:58 PM.

[Eurytus]

kauldron26, on 24 June 2011 - 10:36 AM, said:

I love ASOIAF to death however, there are next to no non-whites in that entire series, and more often that not they are given insignificant roles, some might argue negative ones.  The main black person in that novel is a prostitute that gets whipped to near-death?  Why is that? (I won't even discuss portrayals of the dothraki savages)  Why couldn't a major house be of a different color? My question revolves around the fact that the series is FANTASY not historical fiction.  

Westeros is a CONTINENT.  How and why has there been no immigration?  Are you telling me that in the 5000+ years of ASOIAF history (where science never evolves, people do not travel and resettle?) why neglect the possibility of characters that are different?  You can't say its because of the authors geography.  GRRM lives in the US, the ultimate melting pot.  Then you have authors like Kate Elliot.  I know her Crown of Stars Series is not perfect, but damn it that series showed a world that was not limited by geography, race or history.  And that had an impact on me.  

Westeros may be a continent but its still a supersized medieval Britain and therefore its demographics reflect that.
Most fantasy authors are either European or of European ancestry. The fantasy that they write is frequently set in a quasi-medieval or sometimes even earlier analogue to that time period in history. As such, like Westeros, it will reflect the demographics of that period. Again I think that's normal.
Most successful fantasy is a pastiche of ancient european history so I don't think it would contain much in the way of ethnic diversity.

Those fantasies that do set out to be different, Malazan for example, do feature non-white major characters.

[Tormund Midgetsbane]

Uh, dude, pretty much the entire eastern continent is populated with non-whites, and there is a large southern continent that is unexplored.  Kinda like the real medieval europe on which it's based.  Shocking I know.

[jdiddyesquire]

kauldron26, on 24 June 2011 - 10:36 AM, said:

I came accross an interesting link on Pat's website.  The article focuses on What Cultures Are Neglected in Science Fiction and Fantasy.

http://www.sfsignal....on-and-fantasy/

I found the article very interesting, compelling and necessary.  It made me feel hopeful about speculative fiction's future.  However, I would like to understand why these discussions and ideas genuinely upset some folks.  I am Nigerian American and I have been reading scifi and fantasy for most of my life.  As much as I enjoy and love it, sometimes it feels like my favorite genre never considers people that look like me or factor in the possibilities of non-white cultures or settings.  I remember as a kid everytime I read a line that had "bronze skin" "dark thick hair" I always assumed the characters were of possibly African descent.  I also remember getting older and realizing all that meant was a tan and how crushing that was.

I love ASOIAF to death however, there are next to no non-whites in that entire series, and more often that not they are given insignificant roles, some might argue negative ones.  The main black person in that novel is a prostitute that gets whipped to near-death?  Why is that? (I won't even discuss portrayals of the dothraki savages)  Why couldn't a major house be of a different color? My question revolves around the fact that the series is FANTASY not historical fiction.  

Westeros is a CONTINENT.  How and why has there been no immigration?  Are you telling me that in the 5000+ years of ASOIAF history (where science never evolves, people do not travel and resettle?) why neglect the possibility of characters that are different?  You can't say its because of the authors geography.  GRRM lives in the US, the ultimate melting pot.  Then you have authors like Kate Elliot.  I know her Crown of Stars Series is not perfect, but damn it that series showed a world that was not limited by geography, race or history.  And that had an impact on me.  

I get frustrated when some individuals get angry so quickly that those of us FANS someday want to see a character we can actually relate to or one that represents us. Now if it was an author from Bangladesh writing about Bangladesh culture, that's a different issue.  I can't expect the author to have Brazilian main characters. But if you're from the UK or US and you're writing literature that intentionally do not reflect your own world and all the folks that live in it, it kind of really sucks for some fans.  

Please, I am not trying to flame or whatever.  I want to understand why this topic upsets some people.  Some folks can't possibly understand how conflicting it is to love an author's work to death and even recommend it to legion of folks and yet say "damn I wish there was someone like me in this book"  It sucks.  Yes and you can go ahead and say, why don't you write your own books, authors can do whatever the hell they want.  The point is we love the world the author has created.  Is it so terrible to want to be a part of it?

Most of the readers (and authors)are familiar with European models.  I think that's the easy answer.  We're starting to get more non-white authors in the genre and naturally we'll start to see more non-white cultures portrayed.

Interestingly, David Anthony Durham's Acacia series features main characters that are described as dark of skin, although I never imagine them that way in my head.  Perhaps because the culture is still very European in practice, I imagine the characters European looking as well.

[jdiddyesquire]

Eurytus, on 24 June 2011 - 10:46 AM, said:

Westeros may be a continent but its still a supersized medieval Britain and therefore its demographics reflect that.
Most fantasy authors are either European or of European ancestry. The fantasy that they write is frequently set in a quasi-medieval or sometimes even earlier analogue to that time period in history. As such, like Westeros, it will reflect the demographics of that period. Again I think that's normal.
Most successful fantasy is a pastiche of ancient european history so I don't think it would contain much in the way of ethnic diversity.

Those fantasies that do set out to be different, Malazan for example, do feature non-white major characters.

lol, Tiste Andii.  Doesn't get darker.

[Lummel]

The flip side of this is are Nigerian authors writing fantasy or science -fiction (and if not why not) and if they are why aren't we seeing any of those books up here in the northern hemisphere?

And not just Nigerians either - come on Ethopians tell us about the real Gondor!

There's been some coverage on Larry's website about Latin American science-fiction and I believe he's been involved in trying to get it to a wider non-spanish speaking audience.  Which kind of implies that there are worlds and universes of writing that we are missing out on.  A big part of the problem I think is that our book markets are insular.  Apart from Stand on Zanzibar when else did Indonesia get a mention in science fiction, or Hindu gods outside of Lord of Light?

Edited by Lummel, 24 June 2011 - 11:00 AM.

[Sci-2]

I think a lot of times authors are working on certain assumptions:

1) Believability: To have one House of a non-Caucasian appearance is to dramatically change the structure of the world. It wouldn't be a minor detail but a major issue with history of Westeros which is an analogue for medieval Europe. It takes people out of the story to not explain it, and leaving it requires a historical reworking.

The presence of a dark skinned prostitute or two who come from a culture reveling in sex does lean into the "exotic Other" problem and, at minimum, warrant discussion about racial sensitivity - but I am not sure if they were meant to have an African based appearance or just darker skin. At the same time, minorities are often thrust into the margins of society in any culture they immigrate to.

Also, keep in mind there is no omniscient narrator in the Song of Fire and Ice. The views of the foreigners are always through the eyes of the POV characters. Even characters such as Arya, Samwell, or Jon are likely to harbor some prejudices due to where they grew up.

2) Writing what you know: Martin did a lot of research into the culture of Medieval Europe. The other cultures are seen through that lens, and I don't think Martin wanted to go too deeply into writing about settings that neither he nor his primary readers could easily identify with. It would honestly shift the story to have a foreign empire directly involved, at least in the beginning. Now that the stage is set I can see the inclusion of Asshai and Braavos.

I've heard good things about Ian McDonald's portrayal of cultures in his SF books (River of Gods specifically) though he has also been criticized, I think most heavily for Brasyl. Only part way through River at the moment so can't comment too much on this. It is incredibly hard to believably, and also respectfully in my opinion, write about cultures you don't know.

3) Stories come, at least in part, from the subconscious: Authors write the story that flows naturally to them. It is easier to think about analogues to medieval Europe for most of us growing up in the Western World because the fantasy we read centers on it and much of the history we learn focuses on the development of the West. I think many writers subconsciously have audiences in mind, just as any artist would. You are writing as dialogue, so you are thinking about the people who will get into your world.

Excessive world building can detract from a story, and if you are stumbling over the concern that people with RL heritage X are likely not the way you describe it can cause writer's block or just result in lower quality work.

---

Now, all that said, I would love to see more authors come into SFF from other cultures or more writers dip their toes into those waters. It seems to me, for example, that writers coming from India are focused on the genre of Literature and beyond that I honestly haven't seen a major influx from other countries/cultures but likely I missed something.

I recall there was a fantasy version of the Ramayana, by an Indian author, but it was actually criticized for its emphasis on skin color (light is good, dark is bad).

Matt Stover actually has a half-Indian character, Hari, who might be the greatest bad-ass ever in SFF.

Additionally, I would love to see (or get suggestions for) writing that focuses on different government structures than royalty and genuine recognition of poverty, class, and caste. Mieville is the only author that comes to mind, but I freely admit that is more than likely due to my ignorance rather than a critique.

edit: I should mention that fantasy, in terms of magical realism, has roots in South America.

Edited by sciborg2, 24 June 2011 - 11:12 AM.

[RedEyedGhost]

Lummel, on 24 June 2011 - 10:59 AM, said:

The flip side of this is are Nigerian authors writing fantasy or science -fiction (and if not why not) and if they are why aren't we seeing any of those books up here in the northern hemisphere?

I see tales about princes and treasures coming out of Nigeria all the time!  Of course, they're usually filtered directly into the spam folder of my email...

[jdiddyesquire]

RedEyedGhost, on 24 June 2011 - 11:08 AM, said:

I see tales about princes and treasures coming out of Nigeria all the time!  Of course, they're usually filtered directly into the spam folder of my email...

I laughed.

[Jussi]

I have to say that the Finnic (Finnish, Estonian or Karelian) culture is sadly neglected in fantasy. It is always pseudo-Vikings/Scandinavians when a "Northern" ethnic group is decribed. Sometimes we do get pseudo-Russians.

[jdiddyesquire]

Jussi, on 24 June 2011 - 11:52 AM, said:

I have to say that the Finnic (Finnish, Estonian or Karelian) culture is sadly neglected in fantasy. It is always pseudo-Vikings/Scandinavians when a "Northern" ethnic group is decribed. Sometimes we do get pseudo-Russians.

EDIT: I just wrote a post with all kind of Finnic culture stuff and then I realize it was all vikings.  I felt lame.

Edited by jdiddyesquire, 24 June 2011 - 11:57 AM.

[Lummel]

RedEyedGhost, on 24 June 2011 - 11:08 AM, said:

I see tales about princes and treasures coming out of Nigeria all the time!  Of course, they're usually filtered directly into the spam folder of my email...

Well played Sir!

Jussi, on 24 June 2011 - 11:52 AM, said:

I have to say that the Finnic (Finnish, Estonian or Karelian) culture is sadly neglected in fantasy. It is always pseudo-Vikings/Scandinavians when a "Northern" ethnic group is decribed. Sometimes we do get pseudo-Russians.

I thought Kalevala was one of Tolkien's big inspirations - say particularly when they sing the world into existence in the Silmarillon ?

[Tormund Midgetsbane]

Jussi, on 24 June 2011 - 11:52 AM, said:

I have to say that the Finnic (Finnish, Estonian or Karelian) culture is sadly neglected in fantasy. It is always pseudo-Vikings/Scandinavians when a "Northern" ethnic group is decribed. Sometimes we do get pseudo-Russians.

The majority of the English-speaking world has had little-to-no experience with Finnic culture that they are aware of.  Throughout the analogous times and places (11th-14th century England and France for the most part), Finland was ruled by Germans, Swedes, or Russians and would have been considered merely a part of that culture by far removed outsiders.  Lamenting the lack of blacks/native americans/finns/etc in 12th century england is just silly. They were more aware of China than they were of those places.

[Sci-2]

Kevin Midgetsbane, on 24 June 2011 - 12:10 PM, said:

The majority of the English-speaking world has had little-to-no experience with Finnic culture that they are aware of.  Throughout the analogous times and places (11th-14th century England and France for the most part), Finland was ruled by Germans, Swedes, or Russians and would have been considered merely a part of that culture by far removed outsiders.  Lamenting the lack of blacks/native americans/finns/etc in 12th century england is just silly. They were more aware of China than they were of those places.

You know, now I'm curious about African, Finnish, and Native American epic fantasy...

[KazigluBey]

I know when I watch foreign films I'm particularly annoyed if there are no american characters in them that I can identify with.

[oneeye]

Would be cool to have a mayan style  fantasy setting.

[jdiddyesquire]

oneeye, on 24 June 2011 - 12:48 PM, said:

Would be cool to have a mayan style  fantasy setting.

I believe Angry Robots is publishing something right now that is just that...

http://angryrobotboo...ette-de-bodard/

Aztec though.

[Datepalm]

I started a couple of posts on why condescending to someone for feeling underrepresented, given that *you* feel just fine, is, to put it mildly, shortsighted, but I got annoyed, so I'll just take this opportunity to rec good books i've read lately featuring someone other than white people instead.

- It takes a while to figure out, because he's not much on description, but most of the main characters in Shadows of the Apt, by Adrian Tchaikovsky, are various shades of brown.


- The Rivers of London series (3rd one sometime this year) has a mixed-race main character.

- Kate Elliott's Cold Magic is good too - the heroine is...semitic, I guess? Well, Phoenician, who I thought weren't semites, but their language is  semitic, but its an alternate history and the other major character is Celtic/West African, so even if i'm right, I don't feel any particular need to nitpick it.

- Main character in Jesse Bullingtons Enterprise of Death is black (in medieval Europe, imagine that.)

- Lauren Beukes Zoo City, of course, set In Johannesburg

- Michael Chabon wrote a short novel, "Gentlemen of the Road", that you used to be able to read the whole of serialized on the New York Times website, one main character of which was a black jew. (Ok, not the best rec ever when looking for fantasy, but I like this book, and kind of wish Chabon would stop waffling about genres already and just write a straight up secondary world fantasy. I suppose then it couldn't be about Jews though.)

- Aliette de Bodard's Servant of the Underworld series is a kind of medieval urban fantasy set in the Aztec Empire.

[Nukelavee]

Thomas Harlan has a Sci-Fi series that features an Aztec/Nipponese empire dominating, with most Brits as second class citizens, and teh Nordics as rebels.

Poul Anderson touches on teh Finns in some of his Scandanavian works.

[kurokaze]

Kay nails it in the article. It's all about the writers and what interests them and what makes good stories.

There's a certain amount of insularity, in-breeding almost, that comes along with genre, a vocabulary and visual shorthand, and the quasi-Western-Europe thing is a large part of it, with swords and horses and lords and knights and all that. As with all tropes, challenging them is welcome. But only if it's done honestly, and not for the sake of it. If these elements are part of the background, with no relevance to the greater themes of the story, isn't it better to let them remain there?

We know what a sword is. Replacing one person's sword with a chakram is just Rule of Cool. Replacing everyone's just rings false. And replacing the entire background quasi-medieval society with one based on...whatever society it was that had chakrams, just because Diversity Is Great and you picked the one with the coolest weapon... that just means your book is full of boring, un-passionate descriptions of this society you don't give two shits about, just so your reader can follow.

You want Nigerian fantasy? The best way to get it is to write it, because you're passionate about it. But if that's not practical, if you're not a writer and you don't want to be - or even if it is practical and you're already doing it - then what you can do is create fantasy writers who are passionate about Nigerian culture.

Let's say you know a guy, and he's writing a novel. Maybe he's a bestseller, or maybe he's just tooling around, and probably he's in between; it doesn't matter. Maybe he writes fantasy, maybe not, but he does read it.

What not to do: say "Hey, guy, you should put Nigerian myths in your novel." (This sounds implausible, but I have actually had someone say something nearly identical to this to me.)
What to do: Show this guy everything that's great about Nigerian myths and culture. Sell him on the idea not by telling him the idea, but by showing him so much cool stuff that he cannot help but form the idea himself. (Inception anyone?)

Okay, so maybe you don't know such a guy. But you can still reach one, by putting your culture (or anything else that captures your imagination) out there, by raising awareness of it in public until someone gets it.

And then the book gets published and you find out they got it all wrong.