Evidence to Discredit "R+L=J" Thread

[StarkofWinterfell]

While I was perusing AFFC, I came across this passage:

Page 353 of your paper-back editions folks; the chapter that Cersei sits down with her small council.

"She let Lord Merryweather fill her cup once again. 'Another problem has arisen on the Wall, however. The brothers of the Nights Watch have taken leave of their wits and chosen Ned Starks bastard son to be their Lord Commander.'

'Snow the boy is called,' Pycelle said unhelpfully.

'I glimpsed him once at Winterfell,' the queen said, 'though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father. ' Her husbands by-blows had his look as well, though at least Robert had the grace to keep them out of sight.'" (353-354)

But perhaps you all are right and and Jon is an experienced Faceless Man that can change his appearance to hide his Targaryen looks. HAH!

[Xenophon]

Um, if he were Ned's nephew he might also look a lot like Ned. Also, shouldn't this be folded into the R+L=J stickied thread?

[El Pinko Grande]

Cool story, bro.

[King_In_The_North]

Arya is said to look like Lyanna, Arya is said to look like Jon. THEREFORE, Lyanna looks like Jon and that could make her his mother.

[StarkofWinterfell]

Ned and Lyanna?

Gross.

[Bumble Bee]

I wouldn't mind having a thread for those like me who do not agree with the most popular theory. That said,I find it difficult to believe the Kingsguard would abandon the entire royal family ( Aerys, Viserys, a as yet unborn Daenerys, and Rhaegor's wife and two children) to protect his supposed mistress in a far off tower. Not to mention fight that hard to keep this same mistress away from her own brother while leaving the royal family at the mercy of a marauding army hell bent on revenge.

[King_In_The_North]

Ned and Lyanna?

Gross.

What?! Who said that? That makes no sense, as it was probably much more than nine months since their last encounter. What I said only supports R+L=J.

[Aegon's Landing]

I agree, wrong thread.

Gonna have to do better, bro.

All that passage proves is Jon resembles the Starks, which has never been in dispute. It is mentioned many, many times how Ned has a very Stark face.

[Chirios]

While I was perusing AFFC, I came across this passage:Page 353 of your paper-back editions folks; the chapter that Cersei sits down with her small council."She let Lord Merryweather fill her cup once again. 'Another problem has arisen on the Wall, however. The brothers of the Nights Watch have taken leave of their wits and chosen Ned Starks bastard son to be their Lord Commander.''Snow the boy is called,' Pycelle said unhelpfully.'I glimpsed him once at Winterfell,' the queen said, 'though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father. ' Her husbands by-blows had his look as well, though at least Robert had the grace to keep them out of sight.'" (353-354)But perhaps you all are right and and Jon is an experienced Faceless Man that can change his appearance to hide his Targaryen looks. HAH!

The fact that genetics are true in Westeros is a very important plot point. The Targaryens had blond hair and purple eyes, both of which are recessive genes, the Starks have black hair and brown eyes, both of which are dominant genes. Saying that Jon has dark hair and brown eyes isn't proof of anything, except that one of his parents had dark hair and brown eyes. Not to mention the fact that Ned and Lyanna were supposed to look very similar, so if Jon looks like his mother then by extension he also looks like his father. Your source is Cersei who has been told that Ned has a bastard and no reason to believe otherwise, and finally, there are people in the exact same book who genuinely believe that Sansa looks like Littlefinger.

People see what they expect to see.

[Ran]

Just a note: the Stark look (as embodied by Ned, Arya, and Jon) is brown hair and grey eyes.

[YouKnowNothingJonSnow]

While I was perusing AFFC, I came across this passage:

Page 353 of your paper-back editions folks; the chapter that Cersei sits down with her small council.

"She let Lord Merryweather fill her cup once again. 'Another problem has arisen on the Wall, however. The brothers of the Nights Watch have taken leave of their wits and chosen Ned Starks bastard son to be their Lord Commander.'

'Snow the boy is called,' Pycelle said unhelpfully.

'I glimpsed him once at Winterfell,' the queen said, 'though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father. ' Her husbands by-blows had his look as well, though at least Robert had the grace to keep them out of sight.'" (353-354)

But perhaps you all are right and and Jon is an experienced Faceless Man that can change his appearance to hide his Targaryen looks. HAH!

This proves nothing. Lyanna also had the Stark looks. Jon could have gotten his Starkness from Lyanna. That's the whole point of the other thread.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

but brother and sister can often look alike.

[morbiczer]

All that passage proves is Jon resembles the Starks, which has never been in dispute. It is mentioned many, many times how Ned has a very Stark face.

This resemblence is actually the best proof for the L part of R+L=J. Ned can't be his father ("he is my blood, that's all you have to know"), and for various reasons Rickard, Brandon and Benjen can't be the father either, so that leaves only Lyanna.

[The Anti-Targ]

I wouldn't mind having a thread for those like me who do not agree with the most popular theory. That said,I find it difficult to believe the Kingsguard would abandon the entire royal family ( Aerys, Viserys, a as yet unborn Daenerys, and Rhaegor's wife and two children) to protect his supposed mistress in a far off tower. Not to mention fight that hard to keep this same mistress away from her own brother while leaving the royal family at the mercy of a marauding army hell bent on revenge.

Why indeed and the 3 greatest of the King's Guard no less. Unless they were guarding someone of the royal bloodline at the command of the (then) crown prince. Someone who Rhaegar believed to be the Prince Who Was Promised and therefore more important than any other person of the royal blood. Fighting to the death to prevent a brother from re-uniting with his sister seems an odd thing for the KG to do if no royal life is at stake. The KG's raison-d'etre is to defend the king (and by extension his immediate heirs). There would have to be something unbelievable vital about the ToJ for 3 KG to seemingly abandon everyone who is known to be of the royal blood.

That's not absolute proof that Jon is part Targ, but there certainly is something there to do with the Targ bloodline. And worse than Jon being revealed as a Targ as a somewhat deus ex machina resolution to the central conflict of the story would be some total unknown coming along and being a total deus ex machina.

The other options for Jon are N+A=J and N+W=J. N+W is a red herring I'm sure, because it's the only thing Ned openly admits to, but only to king Bob and not to Catelyn. N+A has some merit, but it doesn't explain the ToJ, thus ToJ needs an explanation which is likely to involve Lyanna giving birth to Rhaegar's child. The other option for ToJ is that the most honourable and greatest of all fighters of all the KG were sent (by Aerys) to kill Lyanna and they were trying to prevent Ned et al from getting to her in time to save her.

That just leaves Ned's promise to Lyanna that has haunted him all his days from the day he made the promise until the day he dies as a loose end. There's a few possibilities, but they are more conjecture even than the possibility that Ned's promise is concerning Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar's child.

[Aegon's Landing]

Bloodraven was an albino, Bittersteel had black hair. Does that mean they're any less Targ?

[nothatso]

Bloodraven was an albino, Bittersteel had black hair. Does that mean they're any less Targ?

Not to mention GRRM himself said that Rhaegar's own daughter with Elia Martell "looked more like a Martell"

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/A_Number_of_Questions/

[Arryk]

Bloodraven was an albino, Bittersteel had black hair. Does that mean they're any less Targ?

and don't forget Baelor Breakspear who had dark brown hair was a legitimate targaryen, as well as Aegon's brother Daeron who had light brown hair.

Also, it must always be pointed out that the overwhelming amount of evidence in the book points to Ashara Dayne being Jon's mother.

[Aegon's Landing]

Why indeed and the 3 greatest of the King's Guard no less. Unless they were guarding someone of the royal bloodline at the command of the (then) crown prince. Someone who Rhaegar believed to be the Prince Who Was Promised and therefore more important than any other person of the royal blood. Fighting to the death to prevent a brother from re-uniting with his sister seems an odd thing for the KG to do if no royal life is at stake. The KG's raison-d'etre is to defend the king (and by extension his immediate heirs). There would have to be something unbelievable vital about the ToJ for 3 KG to seemingly abandon everyone who is known to be of the royal blood.

That's not absolute proof that Jon is part Targ, but there certainly is something there to do with the Targ bloodline. And worse than Jon being revealed as a Targ as a somewhat deus ex machina resolution to the central conflict of the story would be some total unknown coming along and being a total deus ex machina.

The other options for Jon are N+A=J and N+W=J. N+W is a red herring I'm sure, because it's the only thing Ned openly admits to, but only to king Bob and not to Catelyn. N+A has some merit, but it doesn't explain the ToJ, thus ToJ needs an explanation which is likely to involve Lyanna giving birth to Rhaegar's child. The other option for ToJ is that the most honourable and greatest of all fighters of all the KG were sent (by Aerys) to kill Lyanna and they were trying to prevent Ned et al from getting to her in time to save her.

That just leaves Ned's promise to Lyanna that has haunted him all his days from the day he made the promise until the day he dies as a loose end. There's a few possibilities, but they are more conjecture even than the possibility that Ned's promise is concerning Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar's child.

I agree with you in theory, with the exception of Jon's revealed parentage as Deus ex Machina - The way the hints are dropped in AGoT I wouldn't see anything abrupt or sudden about it this far along...however, I take the KG studs presence as evidence not only of birth but legitimacy, as they surely wouldn't continue to guard Rhaegar's bastard after his death...Viserys was sent away without any KG. The three knew Aerys and Rhaegar were dead by the time Ned reached them...and viewed Eddard as an agent of Robert more so than Lyanna's brother.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

Bloodraven was an albino, Bittersteel had black hair. Does that mean they're any less Targ?

Right. The two "official" / non-elderly Targaryens with Targaryen features were Viserys and Dany. They were both the product of a brother/sister union. I don't know of any source that's said the Targaryen "seed" is as "strong" as the Baratheon (if there is one, someone please correct me), so who's to say that a child of a Targaryen and non-Targaryen wouldn't have non-Targaryen features?

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

Also, it must always be pointed out that the overwhelming amount of evidence in the book points to Ashara Dayne being Jon's mother.

This isn't rhetorical. I'm honestly curious. Has there been any evidence given for that other than Ashara committing suicide around the same time and people making assumptions? Always seemed like a red herring to me.