67 replies to this topic

[Xtopher]

Wait, why would Ned lie to Cat about Jon not being really his bastard?

He knows Cat despise him and makes his life misery, he knows Jon goes through hell everytime he crosses Cat. Wouldnt it be the honorable thing telling Cat about Jon and this way spare them all the sorrow and anger?

Also, he must have told someone about it because if he died the secret would be buried with him forever, so no one would be able to prove this theory of yours. How is the secret supposed to be revealed now? It would have been wise to tell Cat about it, thats what im saying.

[WinterfellWoman]

Xtopher, on 22 March 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Wait, why would Ned lie to Cat about Jon not being really his bastard?

He knows Cat despise him and makes his life misery, he knows Jon goes through hell everytime he crosses Cat. Wouldnt it be the honorable thing telling Cat about Jon and this way spare them all the sorrow and anger?

Also, he must have told someone about it because if he died the secret would be buried with him forever, so no one would be able to prove this theory of yours. How is the secret supposed to be revealed now? It would have been wise to tell Cat about it, thats what im saying.

For one thing, when all of this went down, Ned and Cat were practically newlyweds. Ned most likely wasn't sure if he could trust her with such a huge secret. Beyond that, telling just one person makes it that much more likely that those who would harm him would find out. I think he was just taking great care in protecting him.

Also, it mentions that Howland Reed (Lord of Greywater Watch), was with Ned when he came upon Lyanna dying. So if it is true that R + L = J, then Howland Reed definitely knows. There is no possible way Ned could have snuck a baby out of there without him noticing.

[Xtopher]

True WW, very true.
Now im very interested in what Howland Reed has to say about all this. Have we met him yet? cant remember. I just started "Feast".

[WinterfellWoman]

Not as of yet, only his children. I'm waiting rather impatiently to hear what he has to say about the whole ordeal.

[Lady Dayne]

I have a different theory.  I believe that Jon is the son of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne.  It's even possible that Brandon married Ashara before he died, even though he was betrothed to Catelyn.  Ashara is described as fair with violet eyes, so she probably has Targaryen blood in her.  That would make Jon both heir to Winterfell and a possible contender for the throne.  Ned never told Catelyn because he wanted to spare her the humiliation.  He also wanted to protect Jon, since Robert was killing anyone in the Targaryen line.

[Ser Malthred Stark]

How about this theory?
E+L=J (Eddard + Lyanna = Jon). When Lyanna says "Promise me Ned..." she doesn't want anyone to find out that Jon's birth was one of incest.

[The Nerdly Knight]

Way to much incest going on now to think that it was E + L. I really took some time going over the first two books and I too am subscribing to the R + L = J theory. It seems to fit and just feels right in the situation. Not that such things have always turned out for the best when reading these books but it's what I'm going with here.

[silvermug]

WinterfellWoman, on 26 March 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Also, it mentions that Howland Reed (Lord of Greywater Watch), was with Ned when he came upon Lyanna dying. So if it is true that R + L = J, then Howland Reed definitely knows. There is no possible way Ned could have snuck a baby out of there without him noticing.

Now I am curious to know what H Reed has to say about it. I know that Meera and Jojen seem to know a lot of what's going on and what went on, including secrets and history, in Westeros. So, I'm curious to know what Howland knows about Jon.

[Wargin]

I have to agree with those who believe that R + L = Jon. It seems to be the only logical conclusion based upon what we know. There is not another explanation which seems even remotely as persuasive. I think any other outcome in the last (2) books would be deeply unsatisfying because it would not be realistic.  I think GRRM wants a story that is fantastic but also believable. What do we know that suggests Jon is the offspring of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

• Ned is very secretive about Jon’s parentage. He seems to claim him as his own son, but refuses to divulge who his mother was. Even Catelyn knew not to ask. It was just about the only thing that was taboo to speak of in the Stark household.
  
• Lyanna Stark was betrothed to Robert Baratheon.
  
• We are told that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar Targareyn and consequently died.
  
• We don’t know if the above characterization is correct. It does suggest a sexual relationship, and so there was the possibility of child being born from Rhaegar and Lyanna. It is also plausible to attribute her death to complications at child birth (much as Tyrion Lannister’s mother did with him).
  
• Ned met Lyanna just before she died, and he made some sort of promise to her. If she had a son with Rhaegar, she would have wanted him protected. Ned would have been bound by honor and blood to protect the child as his own. If Jon is the offspring of Rhaegar and Lyanna, he is as much Stark as Targareyn, and his sister’s only child.
  
• Robert was genuinely in love with Lyanna Stark. He felt that the Targareyns stole his true love from him. He couldn’t forget Lyanna, so much so that he screwed up his marriage with Cersei Lannister. How devastating would it be to Robert if he learned that Lyanna bore Rhaegar a son? Ouch! Then there is the issue of the Iron Throne. As Ned explained to Robert, he didn’t take the Iron Throne for himself because Robert had the better claim. However, all of the Targareyn offspring were a threat to Robert’s legitimacy. Take Robert’s true love, cuckold him and in the process create a rival for his throne. Not only did Ned see Robert as a brother and would not wish to see him hurt, but, if Robert ever learned the truth, Ned would be calling his banners to fight his childhood friend and King to protect his dead sister’s son.
  
• We know how Robert felt about Lyanna, but we do not know how Lyanna felt about Robert. As it was an arranged marriage, Lyanna could have genuinely loved Rhaegar.
  
• Moreover, the book seems to be filled with these sort of love triangles and unrequited love.
  
• The biggest theme in Robert and Ned’s relationship is the conflict over the Targareyn children. Robert blames all of the Targareyns for taking Lyanna from him and sees them as a threat to his throne. His vengeance and paranoia know no bounds. He wants to kill every last Targareyn including the children. I think Ned would be against killing children on principal, but I think it is more personal than that.
  
• Ned warns Cersei to flee with her children before he tells Robert that their children are actually the result of incest between Jamie and Cesrsei. He empathizes far too much with Cersei, and it is his undoing. It also suggests that he is in an analogous situation.
  
• When Ned leaves Winterfell for King’s Landing, he lets Jon go to the Wall and take the black. On the face it appears that he can’t stay in Winterfell because of Catelyn. As far as that may be true, it is not the only option for Jon. Rob must stay in Winterfell because he is the oldest male, the successor, and a Stark must always be in Winterfell. But if Jon is a bastard…a Snow and not a Stark, Ned could have taken him to King’s landing with him. Even as a bastard, as one of the leading houses of the realm, House Stark, and the Warden of the North, Ned could have arranged a decent marriage and future for Jon. Certainly, Jon had options besides staying at Winterfell or going to the Wall. Of course, the Wall is about as far away from King’s Landing as you can go and still be in Westeros. Taking the black is a hell of a life (as Tyrion points out) and at first Jon feels betrayed by his father. Maybe Ned is just trying to protect Jon.
  
• Robert complains that Lyanna’s bones should have been buried in a better place than the cold dark crypt of Winterfell…someplace sunny and with a view. Of course, in the crypt at Winterfell she would be close to Jon.
  
• Jon could get his Stark features from Lyanna if she were his mother.
  
• Jon’s white direwolf (as opposed to the other children’s black or grey ones) suggests Targareyn influence. Red eyes like fire? The influence and expression of genetics is used throughout the books. For example, the fact that all of the Baratheon have been dark haired (including Robert’s bastard children). Could Jon’s Targareyn genetic heritage be expressing itself through his direwolf?

[Wargin]

If Jon's parents are not Lyanna and Rhaegar, the only other explanation that would make any sense would be Brandon and Lyanna. When Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, he flipped out and went to King's Landing making threats and demanding her return like a fool and got himself killed. We are also told that Brandon was quite different than Ned. I could never see Ned siring a child on his own sister. The Targareyns may have been incestuous at times and gotten away with it, but otherwise it was neither accepted nor honorable, and Ned was a paragon of honor. I'm not sure about Brandon. Could Rhaegar have kidnapped Lyanna (as a ruse) to protect her from Brandon Stark? Was he the bad Stark? There are good Lannisters (like Tyrion). Couldn't there be bad Starks? If this is the case, I would be surprised. I can't rule it out completely, but I still think the overwhelming evidence points toward Rhagaer fathering Jon on Lyanna Stark.

[Wargin]

We are led to believe that Ned Strark would rather die than besmirch his honor by admitting to treason.Yet in the end he agrees to do just that and take the black. It is not revealed why he came to take this course of action, but it supports the Rhaegar and Lyanna theory of Jon's parentage. On the surface he was giving up his honor. To a certain degree that is true, but he was also saving lives and going to the Wall where he could keep his promise to Lyanna to protect her son. He also needed to tell Jon something about his mother. He had unfinished business.

[Kevin Chicken'sbane]

What if he is Leanna and Rob Baratheon's son?  He was in love with her, but there was no mention of sex... I wonder though, All those dark haired Baratheon bastards.

[Kevin Chicken'sbane]

Xtopher, on 22 March 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Wait, why would Ned lie to Cat about Jon not being really his bastard?

He knows Cat despise him and makes his life misery, he knows Jon goes through hell everytime he crosses Cat. Wouldnt it be the honorable thing telling Cat about Jon and this way spare them all the sorrow and anger?

Also, he must have told someone about it because if he died the secret would be buried with him forever, so no one would be able to prove this theory of yours. How is the secret supposed to be revealed now? It would have been wise to tell Cat about it, thats what im saying.

I bet Lord Varys knows.

[Jayce]

It would of been so amazing if Ned told Robert after that hunt.

[nyjack76]

I would bet money on the fact that R+L=J.  There is just too much evidence for it not to be true.  Also, it sounds to me that Jon is not the result of rape but rather genuine love, which would have made it even harder for Robert to accept.  In fact, I also believe that Lyanna killed herself when she found out that Rhaegar was dead, and with her dying breath she asked Ned to protect her son.

Edited by nyjack76, 13 May 2012 - 12:44 AM.

[TheSwordOfTheEvening]

Hes described as looking like ned, his hand burns, jon has that weird communication/relationship with ghost...

Dont get me wrong, i think his mothers someone important. Why else would ned keep it a secret?

[theguyfromtheVale]

He's described as looking like Arya, who's said to be looking like Lyanna. I look more like my uncles than my parents myself.

Targaryens can get burned. Viserys died from molten gold; Aegon V died at the fire at Summerhall; Aerion Brightflame drunk too much wildfire; and Rhaella Targaryen was eaten by her brother's dragon (and, hence, presumably died through dragonfire herself). Dany only survived the pyre because of blood magic.

Jon being a warg doesn't really mean much when asking if he's related to Ned. Or do you think Orell, Borroq and Varamyr are Ned's cildren, too?

[LampreyPie]

You can count me as one of the R+L=J'ers. Without spoiling, there are some passing comments and stories told in ASoS that would give further credence to the theory. I, and many others who subscribe to the theory, feel it wouldn't fit with the image of Ned Stark if he fathered a bastard, especially while married to another woman. Ned Stark was the only character in the book who really never did anything (at least conventionally considered to be) morally wrong, ever. Sure, this could be the one exception, but narrative-wise I think it makes a lot of sense to keep Ned Stark pure.

Also, as the series goes on, Jon is becoming an extremely important character, perhaps one of three or four "main" characters of the entire series. He appears to be a special character, and so the secrecy surrounding his parentage would suggest a huge bombshell. I don't think we'd be waiting six thousand-page books to uncover the secret that his mother is some Dornish wetnurse Ned met in battle. If it's not R+L, it's some equally earth-shattering reveal.

[Lord Manwoody]

The Starks in general seem to be the main family of the series, IMO, and especially the children with their own POV's.  Beyond that, I've had the impression from very early in the first book that Jon Snow may be the most significant of the Starks.  Those are just two general observations from the "feel" I get reading the books.  Beyond that, the fact that Jon's parentage is uknown and continues to come up points to there being something big in the truth about it.  Count me among those who believe the prevailing theory, but even if it isn't true, Jon seems like a huge character and there is something of extreme significance with his parents...whatever the truth is.

[moophasa]

I definitely support the R+L=J theory. Clearly there is going to be a big important twist, or else why would we wait so long? I'm just re-reading GoT, and there are certain extremely subtle things that make me think that actually Jon is not Ned's son. What people have said about Danaerys' vision with the roses is probably really important. Also, the Bael the Bard story - Rhaegar was famous for playing the lute.

But what really does it for me is how it would fit into place with other events:

Spoiler

Remember before the Red Wedding, when Robb named an heir. He seriously considered Jon, and it is implied that he did indeed name him (at least that's how I read it), much to Catelyn's dismay. The details were sent by ship with Maege Mormont to Howland Reed (whether she reached him or not is not yet known) - the only other living person who knows the truth of Lyanna's deathbed, and if the theory is to be believed was present at or shortly after Jon's birth and knows the truth.