131 replies to this topic

[TrackerNeil]

cybroleach, on Mar 6 2007, 21.15, said:

And she's in no position to do that anyway given her current imprisonment.

A question was it Davos head and HANDS? (i always thought it was hand since you'd only need the one to show it was the shortened fingered upjumped smuggler whould the other be nessary. I don't have AFFC to check.

I thought one of Cersei's lapdogs mentioned that the Freys said they saw a hand with shortened fingers, but I don't have the book at hand to confirm this. Makes sense, tho; after all, the missing fingers are probably what Davos is best known for. Those, and the onions.

[Markus]

The relevant information from AFfC:

Cersei says: "The man’s head and hands have been mounted above the walls of White Harbor. Lord Wyman avows this, and the Freys confirm. They have seen the head there, with an onion in its mouth. And the hands, one marked by his shortened fingers."

[NeoQBirdie]

As much as I dearly love Davos (and I do), half of me is hoping he won't magically somehow get out of his beheading. Throughout the last few books I've really enjoyed reading about Davos, his honor, and his loyalty. I've nearly cried for him as his sons perished, and misfortune befell him.

However, It's been a while since we've had a generally likeable and morally decent character die. One of the reasons I love this series so much is that the people I love in it don't always make it through their problems. I love it because it's real enough to say no one is so intrinsic to the plot that they're immortal. In fact whatever their importance or morals, it has no bearing on their killability, at least imho.

I somehow think that as it stands at the moment, I'd rather have Davos get into a situation from which he cannot escape. Who says that Lord Manderly, because we know he's such a paragon of nothern lordship right, will automatically realize that he should side with Stannis? Let's be realistic: the Lannisters are perceived as so entrenched on the throne that it would basically be political sucide to betray them. I can't picture all these lords queueing up behind Stannis, against the current central power of Westeros, against whom Stannis has suffered a major loss, just because it would conveniently save poor Davos' hide.

So, Davos, I love you dearly, but I'd love the way your death might enhance the story more.

[Daralys]

NeoQBirdie, on Mar 7 2007, 19.56, said:

So, Davos, I love you dearly, but I'd love the way your death might enhance the story more.

I hope Davos really is killed because, honestly, I'd just love to have one less POV.  I have nothing against him, but really, there's not much for him to do in White Harbour other than get thrown in a cell, and it just seems like his is another story line that isn't entirely vital to the overall plot.  He's expendable, and less POVs means more chapters for the characters I find much more interesting.

[TrackerNeil]

What's "magical" about a lord trying to hedge his bets by letting a valuable prisoner escape? Catelyn did the same with Jaime...was that "magical" to you as well?

As to your comments, Manderly need not be virtuous to want to spare Davos; self-interest will do just as well. Sure, the Lannisters are enthroned, but they're far, far away and Stannis isn't. They have no fleet to speak of, theirs having been burned at the Blackwater, and the Redwyne ships are either besieging Dragonstone or rushing south to save the Arbor from the Greyjoys. Stannis, however, is nearby, has allied himself with Seven-know-how-many wildlings, and is clearly the more proximate danger.

Also, never forget that even a meek man has his limits. Manderly's son was killed most treacherously at the Red Wedding by the Freys and Boltons, with tacit cover from the Lannisters. Wyman might well decide to publicly bend the knee but privately throw a wrench into the works in any way he can get away with. Sparing Davos keeps Stannis from getting too angry with White Harbor and tweaks Cersei's nose in the bargain. Sure, she can complain, but he can always say, "Gee...I thought it was Davos. He came from Stannis and was missing some fingers, so I thought...well, no matter. Should the real Onion Knight come calling I'll make sure to behead him." It also supports an enemy of Roose Bolton's, something Lord Wyman wouldn't mind at all.

In short, Wyman has nothing significant to lose by sparing Davos except some angry letters from King's Landing, but he keeps Stannis from becoming his enemy and discomfits the Lannister and Boltons. Pretty clear to me what the smart move is.

[Analog_Filter_2011]

Actually, Davos could have died in ASOS.  Stanis held Lightbringer over his head as if he would kill Davos, but Davos read a letter that Stannis needed to go to the Wall.  Mellisandrei could have hd Stannis burn Davos at the ed of ASOS, too, after Davos conspired to have Robert's bastard escape on a ship.
  So, I believe Davos will likely die in ADWD, but his POV chapter up until his death/execution will reveal something VERY important to the plot.  What that can be, I don't know.  But it has to be something much more important than Mandery publicly executing him in front of the Freys, just so Manderly can get his son back from Harranhal.  GRRM has extended Davos' POV-time for an important reason, else he could have and should have killed him off in ASOS.

[snake]

Theon's trick with the Miller's boys proves that people see what you want them to see.  Also, it could be that the Freys are now prisoners at White Harbour and just writing what Lord Wyman wants them to.  Perhaps he is not as forgiving for what happened to his son at the Red Wedding as Cersei and Co. like to think.  If there is one Lord Stannis needs to win to his cause it's Lord Manderly.  His wealth alone could help Stannis for years to come.

[WaitingforWylla]

snake, on Mar 12 2007, 13.57, said:

Theon's trick with the Miller's boys proves that people see what you want them to see.  Also, it could be that the Freys are now prisoners at White Harbour and just writing what Lord Wyman wants them to.  Perhaps he is not as forgiving for what happened to his son at the Red Wedding as Cersei and Co. like to think.  If there is one Lord Stannis needs to win to his cause it's Lord Manderly.  His wealth alone could help Stannis for years to come.

I am inclined to see Theon's trick with the Miller's boys as a setup for this: we know it's possible for this kind of deception to happen, and we've been reminded several times that severed heads are coated with pitch before being displayed....

That said, I am inclined to believe that either:
- Davos is really dead, creating another instance when Jon comes THIS CLOSE to finding out about Wylla and discovering the truth about his parents (she knows what's going on and was intimately involved in the concealments around his birth - whoever finds her and gives her good reason to talk finds out what really happened.)
- Davos is alive and well, and this is another instance of Cersei being very easy to fool. If this is the case, my bet is that there was no beheading and no head-and-hands on the wall. We will just eventually get a scene in which someone buys off Cersei's informers and gets them to make their report to make it easier for the now-presumed-dead Davos to move about Westeros on Stannis' errands.

We shall see...but I seriously doubt that GRRM is going to use the same trick ("Well, it wasn't really HIS head) twice.

[The Pale Griffin]

but something tells me that even if Davos is dead in White Harbor, that will happen relatively late in ADwD. because somehow, he has to get from Borrell to Manderly. I don't know, for a character arc, that's a pretty abrupt ending. You could see the endings of Ned and Robb/Catelyn and Renly, because there was always a conflict. In Robb's case, the war had to end, in Ned's case, it was the prelude to war, in Renly's case, the conflict between brothers. I don't see how Davos' arc will end in White Harbor. I always saw it ending with Stannis or Melisandre doing him in. IMO, there has to be an extraordinary event that takes place between Borell and Manderly in order for Davos arc to come to an end there, considering that Stannis other plans for the north seem to be marching along.

[Lord of Lannister]

We know Manderly is not the most stupid lord in the North. So what would you do in his stead?

Simple, kill some stupid prisoner and shorten his hand etc. Let the Lannisters believe you are their man. But do not kill Davos, just keep him in some dark dungeon or whatever and send word to Stannis that that was not Davos decorating the city walls. Just do what the Freys: wait and see who will win and side with them. Do not make hasty decisions! Stannis will do with just a show of loyalty (he will not ask for men, not immediately anyways) and the same goes for Cersei.

Soon Stannis and Bolton will clash and that will determine Manderly's actions I believe.

[Mezeh]

I also agree that Manderly risks with nothing by keeping Davos alive and killing somebody other in his stead. After he will get his son back there will be very difficult to do something against him when it will turn out that Davos wasn’t executed and he do not have to release him unless Stannis actions will go higher. Keeping Davos in dungeon gives Manderly more options then killing him and to fake execution is too easy not to do it.

[Benjen]

I've been listening to the CoK audiobook and noticed something that made me think that Manderly may not be so loyal to the Boltons, whatever he says to Cersei or the Freys.

Davos' first mission from Stannis was to go to Gulltown, the Sisters, and White Harbor, to deliver the declaration from Stannis of Cersei's incest and his own claim to the throne. Not much, but Davos has certianly been there before.

Before Winterfell was taken by Theon, there was a bit of drama in the North about the Bastard of Bolton, Lord Hornwood's widow and the Hornwood lands which adjoined the Dreadfort lands. Lord Hornwood died at the Battle of the Greenfork and I think his heir died at the Whispering Wood. Lord Wyman made an offer in front of Bran to marry lady Hornwood, though she refused all suitors while at Winterfell's harvest feasts. Lady Hornwood was then taken forcefully and made to marry Ramsay Snow and claim him as her heir. Ramsay then locked her in a cell until she starved to death and claimed her lands. Ser Rodrick Cassell captured Ramsay disguised as Reek (hence his presence in Winterfell when Theon arrives) and reported to Bran that Manderly men and Bolton men were fighting on the Hornwood lands and couldn't be stopped.

When Ramsay later presented the dead Northern leaders to Theon he mentioned that he wished he could have presented Lord Manderly's dead body as well.

So there's very recent bad blood between the Boltons and the Manderlys, not to mention the murder of Ser Wendel Manderly at the Red Wedding. I can see why Lord Wyman may let Davos live and try to help Stannis fight the Boltons.

Edited by Benjen, 02 April 2007 - 03:27 PM.

[Benjen]

Just thought I'd report on the snippet of Davos II from DwD that GRRM read on Second Life. It was really only three or four pages, so I can't see how it would deseve it's own thread.

SPOILER: Davos II DwD spoilers

Davos is sailing into the port of White Harbor on and old cog, the Merry Midwife. The ship regularly plies it's trade between Sisterton and WH and Davos is dressed as a common sailor. He thinks regretfully of the style he hoped to enter WH in, with Salladhor Saan and his ships. Instead he must now smuggle himself into the city.

He thinks of an old master he used to serve and the description this man gave of the smells that belonged to the major ports of Westeros.

Oldtown - fruity and perfumed like a dowager
Lannisport - earthy, a milk maid with the smell of wood smoke in her hair
KL - reeking like a whore
WH - salty and a little fishy like a mermaid would smell

WH is smaller than those other Westerosi ports and cleaner. Davos decribes the city on the eastern bank of the White Knife, with a long sea wall with small towers arrayed along it's length. Seal Rock dominates the Harbor. Once an abandonded fort of the First Men (like the Fist) jutting up in the harbor. Now it's garrisioned and bedecked with catapults and other ballistic defences. Beyond the harbor and the quays, the streets are wide and cobbled and it's easy for a man to find his way around. Houses are white-washed with steep roofs of dark grey slate.

Davos thinks about the Manderlys and realizes that there is bad blood between them and the Boltons, but has heard from Lord Borrell that Manderly has made gestures of supplication to both. He thinks that Manderly could be convinced that he needs Stannis as bad as Stannis needs him. Doubt is strong in Davos' mind and he hopes to learn the truth of where things stand quickly.

The reading ended with Davos hoping he wasn't too late.

Edited by Benjen, 03 June 2007 - 11:14 PM.

[Mezeh]

Actually GRRM also mentioned fair amount of Davos in ADWD. This could be taken as indirect confirmation that Davos most likely will survive ADWD.

[cybroleach]

Mezeh, on Jun 4 2007, 04.33, said:

Actually GRRM also mentioned fair amount of Davos in ADWD. This could be taken as indirect confirmation that Davos most likely will survive ADWD.

Or maybe he thinks 3 to 4 chapters IS a fair amount he also did say awhile back that he was gonna have to start killing off POVs (and i don't think he ment Oakheart).

[Etulftune]

It's when GRRM focuses on a character that I start worrying for his life and wellfare, as that kind of attention always seems to bring about great unpleasantness.

[urizen]

Unfortunately Davos is a PoV that might get the ax as he doesn't bring that much to the story, especially now that he's not around to give us an insight into Stannis and his actions.

[Ski the Swift]

Why do people constantly think that a character is created to show a certain area or person? Who is to say that a certain area or situation wasn't created for the purpose of showing Davos?

Anyways, Davos's chapters will end in ADWD with something ambiguous. We won't be sure if he died or not but might assume that he did due to the reference made in AFFC.

[urizen]

Ski the Swift, on Jun 13 2007, 12.55, said:

Why do people constantly think that a character is created to show a certain area or person? Who is to say that a certain area or situation wasn't created for the purpose of showing Davos?

mostly because Davos is fairly unimportant on his own and he only really accomplice things that affect the story through his connections to others.

Ski the Swift, on Jun 13 2007, 12.55, said:

Anyways, Davos's chapters will end in ADWD with something ambiguous. We won't be sure if he died or not but might assume that he did due to the reference made in AFFC.

I worry about this too. It would'nt suprise me if Davos PoV has him being led to his exectiuon and then fade to black.

[Mezeh]

cybroleach, on Jun 4 2007, 15.23, said:

Or maybe he thinks 3 to 4 chapters IS a fair amount he also did say awhile back that he was gonna have to start killing off POVs (and i don't think he ment Oakheart).

IMHO GRRRM mention of “fair amount” means that Davos would have more chapters then most of regular POVs. Since most of them would likely have from 2 to 4 chapters Davos probably would have more.