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Tyrion as a Targaryen


Iotun

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What's with the burnt bacon? Does the Targs ate their food like that? I can only remember the dragons (the real ones) doing that.





Tyrion could share an ancestor with Sheira's mom or with Euron.





That's not even needed. Unless all of these people are related: http://www.ranker.com/list/celebrities-with-heterochromia/ranker-celebrities





The evidence that Cersei and Jamie are Targ bastards is far more compelling, as we have first hand evidence that Aerys did something to her right before the bedding.





He didn't do anything. He wanted to. But yes, if we're going to consider "chances", putting the narrative aside, there are more chances of the twins being Aerys' kids than Tyrion.


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different eye color isn't a Targ trait, you seem to forget Euron.

Euron's eyes appear to be due to a severe Hyphema, not a genetic condition or something he was born with.

That explains his nickname crow eye (young crows eyes a light coloured and change to red/black as they mature) and the patch, which indicates he doesn't have good vision in the damaged eye.

The only known character aside from Tyrion with a genetic heterochromia condition from birth appears to be a Targ bastard, Shiera Seastar.

He has no dragon dreams, just dreams with dragons

We are not privy to all of Tyrions dreams, nor do we have a definitive definition of what 'dragon dreams' entail.

Makes no sense to this be it Joanna lived in CR

Twyin was Hand, in KL. Joanna was primarily based in CR. Aerys was king in KL. Someone, or several someones, had to travel or Twyin's kids are not his either. Since we don't know anyone's movements around the applicable times, everyone is in play. On the data we have, no competent argument can be made based on location that rules out any of the Lannister siblings as a Targ.

Evidence for Jaime and Cersei being Aerys' kids:

Incest (Targ practice)

Cersie is nuts (Targ madness)

Aerys interest in Joanna, as demonstrated by inappropriate comments and taking liberties during the bedding at Joanna and Tywin's wedding.

Incest is poor evidence - its not a genetic trait. It might however be a pointer.

I believe its a bit more specific about Cersei's madness than just general 'nuts-ness'. For example, Jaime thinks she looked almost aroused watching the wildfyre-burning of teh Tower of the Hand after Tywin's death. Now that very much seems to parallel things we are told about Aerys II.

Aerys' interest in Joanna goes furtehr than just the 'liberties' at the wedding. We are told elsewhere that Aerys was close to Joanna in KL before that, and that he actually would have chosen her as his bride but instead obeyed his fathers orders and married his sister Rhaelle in accordance with teh woods witch prophecy.

Evidence for Tyrion being Aerys' son:

different colored eyes (only other example in-universe is a Targ bastard)

likes his meat burned (as do dragons)

likes spicy food (if you equate spice with heat, Targs like the heat)

dragon dreams (only ever had by Targaryens, or Targ descendants)

Aerys interest in Joanna, etc

deformity (Targ babies have are the only ones in-universe born deformed)

Eyes.

Hair (not Lannister gold, but a descriptive colour, white-blonde that does not sound Targ like, but actually is)

Bacon burned and food heavily spiced (carries his own peppers, or did) - not really evidence but hints, eg liking heat and hot hot baths for Dany, Egg, etc. Targs like it hot/burned/whatever, apparently. Maybe.

Whether prophetic dragon dreams or not, and whether 'every small boy in westeros dreams about dragons' or not, the only people we are told about having dragon dreams are all Targ-related, at least in canon to date. And Tyrion.

See above about the extent of Aerys' interest in Joanna.

I don't know if I agree with deformity, but there is certainly the 3 central characters who all lost their mothers at birth. And the other two are clearly Targs...

There is Moquorro's vision, with all sorts of dragons, and Tyrion amongst them (inclusive or exclusive 'amongst'? Could be either...

There are a number of other more obscure details, like Tyrion casting the shadow of a king or similar several times, parallels like Jaime and Tyrion killing each other's fathers, details of the relationship between Tyrion and his father, small child Tyrions' asking his uncle for a dragon as a present, Tyrion dreaming of killing his father and sister with wildfyre while watching, or something like that, and probably more that I can't remember right now.

I believe the strongest 'anti-evidence' is GRRM saying that Tyrion was named by his father in the saem breath as he says Jon was named by Ned (not 'his father'). Hard to see Aerys being responsible for Tyrion being named Tyrion. Not impossible, but unlikely.

Please note: "taking liberties" does not mean sleeping with. Aerys is specifically noted as having said it was a shame the "first night" tradition was outlawed. It was that tradition that would actually have allowed him to sleep with the bride. So, no, he didn't sleep with Joanna on her wedding night.

100% agreed.

Here's an idea: Cersei and Tyrion are Aerys' kids; Jaime is Tywin's.

Given that Jaime and Cersei are are close in appearance as it is possible to be for brother and sister (actually functioned as identical twins when they were children) this idea just isn't tenable.

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From what we know about Aerys' madness - and that's not so little as we might think - Cersei is not mad in that sense.



1. She does not refuse that someone cuts her nails and hair.



2. She is not fit to sudden mood swings.



3. She does not like to see people burn. The burning of the Tower of the Hand is much different, it's her symbolic victory of the male Hands, her father, Jon Arryn, Ned Stark - the ones who used her as a pawn, and tried to take away her power. She is not mad just because this turns her on.



4. She is not fit to sadistic clawing stuff after she has been aroused by fire.



5. She does not believe that buring KL down will turn her into a living dragon.



GRRM obviously did not want to make Tyrion's true heritage obvious. In fact, he went to great lengths to conceal it while giving us small and important clues on the way. In ADwD he is preparing us for this revelation - just as he is preparing us for the revelation about Jon. But if Barristan Selmy had hinted at a much later meeting between Joanna and Aerys, things would have been very obvious indeed. By hinting at Aerys' interest during Joanna's wedding, he ensures that some people swallow the bait and believe that Aerys could never have been the father of Tyrion.



In that sense, it also makes no sense to assume that GRRM would, on a public reading, casually state that Aerys was Tyrion's father. That would simply doesn't make any sense, especially since the father is always the guy who acknowledges a child (this is also why Laenor Velaryon is the father of his children, de iure a least). In Jon's case it's more obvious - at least in fan circles - what was really going on. Whereas the fact that Tyrion is Aerys' son is supposed to be a much bigger twist than the revelation about Jon Snow.


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From what we know about Aerys' madness - and that's not so little as we might think - Cersei is not mad in that sense.

1. She does not refuse that someone cuts her nails and hair.

2. She is not fit to sudden mood swings.

3. She does not like to see people burn. The burning of the Tower of the Hand is much different, it's her symbolic victory of the male Hands, her father, Jon Arryn, Ned Stark - the ones who used her as a pawn, and tried to take away her power. She is not mad just because this turns her on.

4. She is not fit to sadistic clawing stuff after she has been aroused by fire.

5. She does not believe that buring KL down will turn her into a living dragon.

GRRM obviously did not want to make Tyrion's true heritage obvious. In fact, he went to great lengths to conceal it while giving us small and important clues on the way. In ADwD he is preparing us for this revelation - just as he is preparing us for the revelation about Jon. But if Barristan Selmy had hinted at a much later meeting between Joanna and Aerys, things would have been very obvious indeed. By hinting at Aerys' interest during Joanna's wedding, he ensures that some people swallow the bait and believe that Aerys could never have been the father of Tyrion.

In that sense, it also makes no sense to assume that GRRM would, on a public reading, casually state that Aerys was Tyrion's father. That would simply doesn't make any sense, especially since the father is always the guy who acknowledges a child (this is also why Laenor Velaryon is the father of his children, de iure a least). In Jon's case it's more obvious - at least in fan circles - what was really going on. Whereas the fact that Tyrion is Aerys' son is supposed to be a much bigger twist than the revelation about Jon Snow.

Unlike most people think, Gerion Lannister will be revealed as his biological father IMO. As for the Targish features of Tyrion (and his siblings), I think a Plumm ancestry works well.

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

One of the possible interpretations of this SSM is that Tyrion’s father is not mentioned by name, so it should not be necessarily Tywin.

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Paper Weaver,



there is no hint whatsoever that a Plumm married into House Lannister at the right fact. in fact, I'm not sure if it could work at all. The Plumm in question would have to be the wife of the Great Lion, but Elaena could only have been married to Ossifer after 172 AC (when she got out of the Maidenvault). Considering that Ossifer died rather quickly, my guess is that Viserys Plumm is the only child of Elaena from her first husband, and any daughters of his would have been way too young to marry Lord Damon.



Say, Viserys Plumm was born in 173 AC, and lets assume that he was married at the age of fifteen (in 188), and his firstborn child was a daughter (born in 189), then she would have been 13 in 202 - the earliest possible date she could conceive children. Then Tybolt would not yet be ten when rides in the tourney at Ashford - simply not possible.



Technically, Jeyne Marbrand or Marla Prester could descend from one of the Plumm daughters (but Rohanne can't). But I really doubt that GRRM had such convoluted heritage in mind when he first dropped hints that Tyrion might have Targaryen blood in AGoT. Don't you think?



For all this to make sense we'd also have to assume that Lord Viserys Plumm had daughters at all - no indication for that as of yet. All we know is that Viserys had a lot of sons (and that Ben is most likely descended from one of the younger sons).


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That is ... not very likely. Damon Lannister sucked during the Blackfyre Rebellion. I guess he would have been much more energetic (and not in CR besides), if he had been Master of Coin and married to a Targaryen princess.



Not to mention that fact GRRM most likely did also not yet invent Elaena when he dropped the hints about Tyrion's Targaryen heritage in AGoT. We should assume that the ancestry of the major characters - Tyrion, Jon - was quite clear to GRRM in the 90s when he dropped the first hints. He knew that the three-eyed crow was a Targaryen long before he invented Bloodraven, after all.



But a daughter of her second husband could have Damon's wife - if she immediately remarried after Ossifer's death. If not, such a daughter would also be too young to marry into House Lannister.



I'm pretty sure there was no Targaryen-Lannister match ever in the history of the Seven Kingdoms. If Tywin (or Cersei/Jaime) had Targaryen blood, he would not have tried to desperately to marry Cersei to Rhaegar, nor would Aerys have been this opposed to the whole match. The whole Valyrian bride thing strongly suggests that Aerys wanted a bride with Valyrian blood for Rhaegar. It was not all about humiliating Tywin.



No chance whatsoever that a Lord of Casterly Rock would marry the bastard Jeyne Waters.


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Tywin didnot try desperately for Rhaegar-Cersei marriage. He was a reasonable man and his offer was reasonable. I think the fact that he realistically expected this offer to be accepted tells that the Lannisters do have some Valyrian blood. Aerys was a fool to refuse this offer and he refused it because of his inferiority complex against Tywin. I don't remember Aerys saying "you have no Valyrian blood" when refusing Tywin's offer. He said "you are my servant and I will not marry my heir to my servant's daughter".



In addition, we do not know much about the First Blackfyre Rebellion actually.



There is also the fact that Gerold Lannister was a strong advocate of Egg in the Great Council of 233. That makes perfect sense if Maekar's unknown wife was a yet unknown daughter of Eleana Targaryen and Damon Lannister (his sister in short).



It also explains why Egg was so receptive to Plumms and asked Maynard Plumm (BR) if he was kin to Lord Viserys Plumm (because Egg was a kin to Viserys Plumm in this case.)


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Oh, Tywin did desperately try. He had this on his mind for years (Cersei's POV), tried to catch Aerys in a good mood, and did not let the matter rest at all after Aerys' rebuttal, but called Cersei later to court, hoped for Elia's death to make another try, or to marry Cersei to Viserys when the boy grew older.



What's that if not desperate? Aerys had nothing to gain from this match, by the way. Tywin was already his Hand and dutiful servant, how would House Targaryen have profited from such a marriage?



Gerold's support for Egg most likely has a lot to do with Rohanne Webber-Osgrey-Lannister and pretty much nothing with some imaginary blood ties. All the claimants at the Great Council had dragon blood. Why not support Aemon's claim, or the claim of the infant prince? Gerold would have been related to them, too.



No one ever doubted that Lord Viserys Plumm was Elaena's son (and that Egg is aware of that fact). But this has nothing to do with the Lannisters.


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Aside from all this discussion about Aerys/Tywin+Joanna=C/J/T (because its too speculative if the twins where also from Aerys), I do think it could be possible for Tyrion to be a Targ (bastard). GRRM has this sadistic game of giving clues throughout the books, bits, tiny morsels of information to flare our suspicions about the real identity of the characters. When re-reading the series you begin to notice more and more how intertwined is Tyrion with the Targ identity, not as an infatuation as Tyrion himself thinks, but as something in his subconscious that's nagging to come out (as happened with Dany and Jon earlier). (f)Aegon can't be the third head of the Dragon because its just so out there, so given, so obvious that it just can't be real. GRRM likes giving mental WTFs and this isn't enough WTF for it to be the third head of the Dragon.



note: sorry for my grammar! :rolleyes:


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Aside from all this discussion about Aerys/Tywin+Joanna=C/J/T (because its too speculative if the twins where also from Aerys), I do think it could be possible for Tyrion to be a Targ (bastard). GRRM has this sadistic game of giving clues throughout the books, bits, tiny morsels of information to flare our suspicions about the real identity of the characters. When re-reading the series you begin to notice more and more how intertwined is Tyrion with the Targ identity, not as an infatuation as Tyrion himself thinks, but as something in his subconscious that's nagging to come out (as happened with Dany and Jon earlier). (f)Aegon can't be the third head of the Dragon because its just so out there, so given, so obvious that it just can't be real. GRRM likes giving mental WTFs and this isn't enough WTF for it to be the third head of the Dragon.

note: sorry for my grammar! :rolleyes:

Don't worry about the grammar--the thoughts are solid. If GRRM has (f)Aegon as one of the heads of the dragon, then I will have to admit that I completely overestimated GRRM's skills as an author. What good author introduces one of the three saviors/heroes half-way through the story and gives little insight into the character (i.e., not a POV character)? I would not think an author of GRRM's skills would do such a thing.

As to the hints that Tyrion is a Targ, I agree with your point, but there is something more fundamental to consider. If there is another hidden Targ (in addition to Jon) it has to be for a very good reason. Again, a writer of the quality of GRRM does not put random hidden Targs all over the place--only ones that are necessary to the overall plot and story arcs. The readers have been told many times that the dragon has three heads, and one of the three heads will be TPTWP who will lead the Battle for the Dawn (or some variation of that prophesy). Yes, GRRM said that the third head is not necessarily a Targ, but does it really make sense that a head of the dragon would not have dragon blood? I don't think so--as a Targ bastard, Tyrion technically would not be entitled to the Targaryen name, so GRRM would technically be telling the truth (but intentionally misleading--as one might suspect GRRM would do with a mystery in the series). So once the reader concludes that the third head needs to be a Targ of some sort and needs to be a major POV character, the clues that Tyrion could be a Targ fall right into place. So it is not just the clues themselves that you point out have been laid out to the reader in bits and pieces over time--but how those clues fit into the overall narrative and the necessity to have another major character be a Targ of some kind.

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I don't understand. Are there two separate sides to this theory; one that claims Tyrion is the product of Aerys raping Joanna, and one that has it as a consensual relationship? Thats what it appears to me at least.


To the former, why would Joanna keep the child if Aerys had raped her?


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Aerys had nothing to gain from this match, by the way. Tywin was already his Hand and dutiful servant, how would House Targaryen have profited from such a marriage?

Take a huge dowry and rebuild KL into a reasonable city with canalization, instead of a stinky shithole it currently is? Turn the kingsroad into a proper road? Bind the Lannisters to the throne for the next couple of generatios, which, incidentally, would have ensured the survival of Targaryen dynasty? Secure Tywin's gratitude and loyalty until his dying breath? IMHO, there was a lot to be said for that marriage, if Cersei had been a normal girl. Which, unfortunately, she wasn't, but Aerys never knew it, and neither did Tywin.

No one ever doubted that Lord Viserys Plumm was Elaena's son (and that Egg is aware of that fact). But this has nothing to do with the Lannisters.

Well, there is still a small chance that Plumms married into Presters or Marbrands, and that it gets brought up when it becomes relevant. OTOH, there were already a couple of scenes where it should have come up and it would feel retroactively contrived that it didn't.

Oh, and Baratheon - Targaryen marriage(s) were actually mentioned by Renly in ACoK, although in a general form. Still, it has been made clear that there was at least one marriage in the last century. It didn't first come up in AFFC, we just heard more details from Aemon.

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Euron's eyes appear to be due to a severe Hyphema, not a genetic condition or something he was born with.

That explains his nickname crow eye (young crows eyes a light coloured and change to red/black as they mature) and the patch, which indicates he doesn't have good vision in the damaged eye.

The only known character aside from Tyrion with a genetic heterochromia condition from birth appears to be a Targ bastard, Shiera Seastar.

We are not privy to all of Tyrions dreams, nor do we have a definitive definition of what 'dragon dreams' entail.

Twyin was Hand, in KL. Joanna was primarily based in CR. Aerys was king in KL. Someone, or several someones, had to travel or Twyin's kids are not his either. Since we don't know anyone's movements around the applicable times, everyone is in play. On the data we have, no competent argument can be made based on dreams then, location that rules out any of the Lannister siblings as a Targ.

How do you know that? Theon said they were always like that.

Don't bring up dragon and yeah we do, prophetic dreams, some may have dragons, but dragons alone don't make them dragon dreams.

They lived in CR, that is where Joanna raised them, they did not go to Kl till after her death. Tywin was in CR when Tyrion, no signs of her going to KL.

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I've read those threads, and unconvinced is an understatement. There's no evidence that Joanna was anywhere near Aerys at the time of Tyrion's conception. She lived at CR, we know this because that's where Cersei and Jaime were raised, and she raised them. Cersei didn't visit KL until after her mother's death.

Hair color can be explained by a Targ ancestor, which as a highly prominent house, is quite likely.

Bacon burnt black- lots of people eat their bacon that way, including my fiancé. He's no Targ.

Eyes? Sheira is the only given example of that defect and could have gotten it from her non Targ mother. Euron also has 2 different eyes, and he's no Targ. He's had 2 different eyes for a long time, before he started dabbling in sorcery, since Theon remembers them from childhood. He likely had them since birth. 2 different colored eyes are rare, but not that rare. Tyrion could share an ancestor with Sheira's mom or with Euron.

The "evidence" for this theory is flimsy at best. And the theory directly contradicts Tyrion's entire arc of trying to earn Tywin's love and respect as well as prove himself worthy of CR. If Tyrion isn't Tywin's, he has zero rights to CR.

Your other post to me is accurate and I understand what you are saying about unicorns and dinosaurs. What I am saying is that; Why is it mentioned soooo many times in tyrion's chapters? Why does he constantly have dreams involving dragons? When no one else in the novels, save Targaryens have dreams with dragons in them? It cannot be such a coincidence,t hat would just be loose uncalculated writing and GRRM does not do that.

Your other post to me is accurate and I understand what you are saying about unicorns and dinosaurs. What I am saying is that; Why is it mentioned soooo many times in tyrion's chapters? Why does he constantly have dreams involving dragons? When no one else in the novels, save Targaryens have dreams with dragons in them? It cannot be such a coincidence,t hat would just be loose uncalculated writing and GRRM does not do that.

(to this post) You are right that as of right now, we have no idea of the whereabouts of Joanna 9 months before Tyrion was born. I have thought about this a lot. Tyrion was born in late 272 or early 273. Aerys began his reign in 262. So in early 272 wouldnt he be having a 10 year anniversary party of his reign? And wouldnt his hand and his hands wife be there to celebrate? Obviously that is just speculation on my part, but I think it is a valid idea. We will have to wait to find out for sure though.

But I do know for sure (solid book evidence) that Aerys liked Tywin prior to Tyrion's birth. Aerys, TYwin, Joanna and Rhaella were all friends as children, they all grew up together at court and were companions. Aerys then raised Tywin up to Hand of the king because he was impressed by Tywin, he liked him. Then tywin started doing really really well as hand, getting too big for his britches in Aerys' eyes. (now it switches to my theory) Then around 270-273 something happened that made Aerys completely change his attitude towards Tywin, at his 10 year anniversary party (or whatever) Aerys slept with or raped Joanna. You can see from the quote below that when Cersei was a young girl, probably around 8-10 years old (274-276 ish) That at this point Aerys has changed his views of Tywin very much. He no longer respects him or likes him, he laughs openly in his face. This is no longer the act of a long-time friend. This is the act of someone who has cuckolded you and now thinks your a joke.

Feast for Crows

Unbidden, a memory came to her, of the feast King Aerys had thrown when Cersei first came to court, a girl as green as summer grass. Old Merryweather had been nattering about raising the duty on wine when Lord Rykker said, "If we need gold, His grace should sit Lord Tywin on his chamber pot." Aerys and his lickspittles laughed loudly, whilst father stared at Rykker over his wine cup. Long after the merriment had died that gaze had lingered. Rykker turned away, turned back, met Father's eyes, then ignored them, drank a tankard of ale, and stalked off red faced, defeated by a pair of unflinching eyes.’--Cersei about their father.

The fact that Martin used the word lickspittles suggest that the other men were only laughing based on Aerys lead. Essentially they were laughing because he was laughing. And as we can see Rykker on his own was scared of Tywin, he was only laughing at Tywin because Aerys was.

Wow, I think you have not read as carefully as you think. It is pretty clear that Aerys was a little too "handsy" at the bedding, but equally clear that he did not have sex with Joanna at that time--with everyone looking. The point of that scene is to establish his interest in her so that when his rape of her ending in the birth of Tyrion is revealed, we will have known that he was interested in her sexually. It is virtually impossible to believe that he had sex with her at the time of the bedding.

(f)Aegon is not one of the three dragons. He is not a POV character. He was introduced in the fifth book. He is not a Targ--he has Targ blood, but his father was not a Targ (he is not the son of Rhaegar--thus why he is (f)Aegon and not Aegon). His purpose seems pretty clearly to be an antagonist and not an ally to Dany--thus DoD 2.0. A good writer does not have two of the saviors to be introduced early at the beginning of the series and then the third introduced half way through the series. (f)Aegon is just not a credible candidate for the third head of the dragon.

I admit I might be wrong about A+J=T. But your evidence is not going to be why. Your evidence proves absolutely nothing.

At their wedding Aerys did take liberties but that was the extent of it that night. There was no sex.

I am 100% certain that Tyrion is the son of Aerys, but I really do not think the twins are. There is not much evidence towards it, and Tyrion is the one in DwD and he is the one with dragons on the brain since childhood. and he is the one being escorted across the world to Dany right now, her brother.

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GRRM obviously did not want to make Tyrion's true heritage obvious. In fact, he went to great lengths to conceal it while giving us small and important clues on the way. In ADwD he is preparing us for this revelation - just as he is preparing us for the revelation about Jon. But if Barristan Selmy had hinted at a much later meeting between Joanna and Aerys, things would have been very obvious indeed. By hinting at Aerys' interest during Joanna's wedding, he ensures that some people swallow the bait and believe that Aerys could never have been the father of Tyrion.

In that sense, it also makes no sense to assume that GRRM would, on a public reading, casually state that Aerys was Tyrion's father. That would simply doesn't make any sense, especially since the father is always the guy who acknowledges a child (this is also why Laenor Velaryon is the father of his children, de iure a least). In Jon's case it's more obvious - at least in fan circles - what was really going on. Whereas the fact that Tyrion is Aerys' son is supposed to be a much bigger twist than the revelation about Jon Snow.

He made it obvious, with dozens of connections to Tywin Lannister. How? By making his connection to the all the more singular and relevant to his story? " I am the true lord of CR." Phhh, he backed Games full of really easy hints that Jon is R+L, have no such thing with Tyrion.

Instead he said his father named him, so unless Aerys came out of nowhere and said name Tyrion, that is Tywin.

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His aunt basically confirmed that he is Tywin's son through and through. If anyone's a Targaryen, it's Jaime and Cersei, the incestuous, blonde nutjobs that totally have a Targaryen complex. This is, incidentally, practically confirmed by Jaime's vision of the silent sister who happens to be his mother.


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He made it obvious, with dozens of connections to Tywin Lannister. How? By making his connection to the all the more singular and relevant to his story? " I am the true lord of CR." Phhh, he backed Games full of really easy hints that Jon is R+L, have no such thing with Tyrion.

Instead he said his father named him, so unless Aerys came out of nowhere and said name Tyrion, that is Tywin.

The "his father named him" SSM probably shouldn't be taken as confirmation that Tywin was his biological father. Even if Tyrion is Aery's bastard Tywin raised him as a son, and is still he father in every sense but biologically.

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