Finished AFFC Spoilers Aplenty

[Black Amethyst]

re Sandor:

It is pretty easy to assume that Sandor is dead, because that whole issue was dealt with in a very subtle way. There was a play on words used by the priest, and it felt like he was speaking about the "death" in a figurative way. Also, in the Quiet Isle chapter, there is mention of a new novice, several times, who is tall and walking with a visible limp. Also his horse is stabled there, Stranger, and the dog comes right over to this "novice" as well and is very trusting and friendly.

I imagine that there was a grave of some kind constructed, and I think he did leave that helm behind for a reason, probably to cast off what it represented to him. Plus I'm going by the general rule that most deaths are fairly explicitly stated/described, and all we really know is that Arya left him sitting at the side of the road.

With Brienne I believe we leave off with her actually getting hanged, and it brought to my mind the manner of Catelyn's death, but I suppose she might have a couple of *seconds* left, depending on what goes down, so I guess it's possible she might live. I'll have to read on.

[lezboyd]

re Sandor:

...the Quiet Isle chapter, there is mention of a new novice, several times, who is tall and walking with a visible limp. Also his horse is stabled there, Stranger, and the dog comes right over to this "novice" as well and is very trusting and friendly.

Half of Sandor's face was burned. That would not be something that the priest could have reversed, and there is no mention of half of the novice's face being burned. The burned skin would have been visible even if his mouth was covered, and neither Brienne nor Pod would have missed out on that. The priest might have taken the horse himself, though how he would have managed to pacify him, I cannot say. I don't think the nature of the physical dog coming over to the novice is a factor because Sandor wasn't a warg; he was just willfully called Joff's Dog because he had refused knighthood, and was always around protecting Joff and obeying his commands.

[Michael Stephen Bell Jr.]

Half of Sandor's face was burned. That would not be something that the priest could have reversed, and there is no mention of half of the novice's face being burned. The burned skin would have been visible even if his mouth was covered, and neither Brienne nor Pod would have missed out on that. The priest might have taken the horse himself, though how he would have managed to pacify him, I cannot say. I don't think the nature of the physical dog coming over to the novice is a factor because Sandor wasn't a warg; he was just willfully called Joff's Dog because he had refused knighthood, and was always around protecting Joff and obeying his commands.

Interestingly they don't mention his face whatsoever (how unlike Martin), merely that he was bigger than Brienne and lame, it describes the brothers of the order as cowled, and from the description of the action it indicates that he is flinging dirt from the grave he is digging over his shoulder and in their direction seemingly signifying that his back is turned to them. He is then addressed and told to "Be more watchful..." to which he lowers his head and scratches a DOG'S ear (none too subtle hint there). Not saying, just saying....

[Sundara Hai]

Half of Sandor's face was burned. That would not be something that the priest could have reversed, and there is no mention of half of the novice's face being burned. The burned skin would have been visible even if his mouth was covered, and neither Brienne nor Pod would have missed out on that. The priest might have taken the horse himself, though how he would have managed to pacify him, I cannot say. I don't think the nature of the physical dog coming over to the novice is a factor because Sandor wasn't a warg; he was just willfully called Joff's Dog because he had refused knighthood, and was always around protecting Joff and obeying his commands.

His house sigil is 3 dogs, hence why they call him dog or hound . . .

[Michael Stephen Bell Jr.]

What I find interesting about this book are some of the techniques GRRM uses and what that says about where some of the characters and by extension where the series is going as a whole. The most interesting thing of note are Sansa's chapters I think, in her new role as Alayne. In previous books Arya has developed numerous new identities/names but they never became the heading for her POV chapters as Alayne has for Sansa's in AFFC. She has incorporated this identity so thoroughly that she is now *thinking* of LF as her father as opposed to merely thinking that they are pretending that relationship. The Alayne chapters also reference in multiple areas a kiss with Sandor that never took place making me wonder if her hold on reality is slipping a bit (however tenuous it was to begin with).

This renaming of POV's is also seen in Arya's last chapter entitled "Cat of the Canals", which is again quite different than when she was calling herself Arry or Nan or Squab etc. This is obviously meant to signify a much more drastic change in identity than the previous forms of playacting, though I think I am missing something else that Martin is trying to tell us. Any ideas?

[Sundara Hai]

What I find interesting about this book are some of the techniques GRRM uses and what that says about where some of the characters and by extension where the series is going as a whole. The most interesting thing of note are Sansa's chapters I think, in her new role as Alayne. In previous books Arya has developed numerous new identities/names but they never became the heading for her POV chapters as Alayne has for Sansa's in AFFC. She has incorporated this identity so thoroughly that she is now *thinking* of LF as her father as opposed to merely thinking that they are pretending that relationship. The Alayne chapters also reference in multiple areas a kiss with Sandor that never took place making me wonder if her hold on reality is slipping a bit (however tenuous it was to begin with).

This renaming of POV's is also seen in Arya's last chapter entitled "Cat of the Canals", which is again quite different than when she was calling herself Arry or Nan or Squab etc. This is obviously meant to signify a much more drastic change in identity than the previous forms of playacting, though I think I am missing something else that Martin is trying to tell us. Any ideas?

Are you sure? I distinctly remember the night after the war when Sandor was hiding in her room and him kissing her. She sang for him as well. Maybe I'm as confused as Alayne.

[Michael Stephen Bell Jr.]

Are you sure? I distinctly remember the night after the war when Sandor was hiding in her room and him kissing her. She sang for him as well. Maybe I'm as confused as Alayne.

Yeah, go back and reread that chapter from ACOK. He holds a knife on her and she sings but there is no kiss described. Not nearly the romantic scene that Sansa remembers.

[An Ironborn Son]

So many thoughts after finishing....

Cersei- I'm not surprised that the queen has ended out how she has, since Joffery's demise she hasn't been close to rational. Her POV chapters were hard for me to read because she doesn't seem to have that cunning that she possessed when dispatching Eddard. That was the kind of character that would be interesting: someone who was dangerous but enjoys playing dangerous games. Instead, this character is a paranoid numbskull who collapses everything her family worked for without any regard to foresight. Qyburn was the only interesting development in her story and I'm hoping that he gets some more on air time soon.

Jaime- His final chapter wasn't super surprising but I did enjoy the way he held himself at Riverrun. The knight finally shows some skill as a diplomat all the while trying to keep the promise he made to Catlynn (which I still don't know why he seems so intent on keeping now that she's dead). I would like to see him run into the Blackfish again to see just how fair of a fight it would be. GRRM also seems intent on making the reader like him even going so far as to make Ser Ilyn a decent guy but I'm not willing to follow him out onto that limb yet. I'm semi-interested to see what happens next.

Sansa- Sansa, Sansa, Sansa? Why do I hate you so? Is it because I still consider you a kinslayer for reporting on your father to Cersei? Maybe I don't like the fact that you sublimated yourself towards Joffery and even sort of still seemed to like him even after he killed your dad could that be it? No, I think it's that throughout your whole journey you still seem to be as naive as when you came to King's Landing. The fact that she still believes Littlefinger is trying to help her is ridiculous and this whole plan to wed her off in an attempt to reclaim Winterfell? Psssh. I see Sansa ending up as Petyr's loveslave once he manages to marshal a few more of his pieces. For me, these chapters are easily the hardest to read.

Samwell- I feel for big lug but I think Oldtown is the perfect place for him. Having him start to question Jon's motives was a nice touch. Hopefully he'll learn enough so that when he's needed back on the Wall he'll be ready for more Slaying.

Brienne- I hope that it's not curtain's for the swordswench because it would seem to leave her plot largely unresolved but on the other hand I could see why she had to go. The way she was going there was almost no way that she'd ever find either of the Stark girls so she was taking up valuable page space. Sucks for Pod though, it shows just how far the Brothers have fallen. Methinks that something was wrong when wight Catlynn came back and I was super pissed that Beric is gone.

The Dorne Chapters- Man, what did any of these chapters accomplish? We learn that Dorne is really pissed that the Red Viper is dead, I mean, really really pissed. I was kinda hope that Doran would have killed all the Sand Snakes (on second thought, maybe he did). Well, Darkstar did try to kill Myrcella in what can only be described as a GRRM attack scene: the lack of detail about what was actually going on was so sparse I literally didn't know anything had happened to the princess until Arienne brought it up later. Nothing really even touched on what was going on in the rest of Westeroes except for the slight hint that Doran had sent one of his sons off to go do something...wish we might have learned more.

My top questions after this book:

1. Will the Tyrells try to break Margery out? They seem to have enough military presence or will they be spread thin trying to fend off the Ironborn.

2. Who is the Champion that Qyburn spoke of? I mean I guess it could be Gregor but I thought that the head of the Mountain had been sent to Dorne. Maybe another head was substituted but wouldn't someone have noticed?

3. How long in theory can wight Catlynn keep going on? Lord Beric seemed to be getting worse and Thoros wasn't sure how much longer he could keep going. And what is the Brotherhood's overall goal: just kill all the Freys or kill everyone?

[Ser Raymun Fossoway]

prince martell is waiting for dany. he had betrothed his daughter to viserys. but thats jacked now. dorne waiting for the return of the targs to destroy highgarden and the lanisters that why prince martell has been so patient. im sure hed loved to fillet the marcella but he knows better to wait and he'll get his revenge.

plus i think lady stoneheart is going to keep executing Freys. Freyocide? or arya comes back as a faceless assasin and takes care of that. i kinda thought after the red wedding that the series was lost but affc has so much gravity that im starting to see where the next books may be going.

[Tammy]

So many thoughts after finishing....

Cersei- I'm not surprised that the queen has ended out how she has, since Joffery's demise she hasn't been close to rational. Her POV chapters were hard for me to read because she doesn't seem to have that cunning that she possessed when dispatching Eddard. That was the kind of character that would be interesting: someone who was dangerous but enjoys playing dangerous games. Instead, this character is a paranoid numbskull who collapses everything her family worked for without any regard to foresight. Qyburn was the only interesting development in her story and I'm hoping that he gets some more on air time soon.

Jaime- His final chapter wasn't super surprising but I did enjoy the way he held himself at Riverrun. The knight finally shows some skill as a diplomat all the while trying to keep the promise he made to Catlynn (which I still don't know why he seems so intent on keeping now that she's dead). I would like to see him run into the Blackfish again to see just how fair of a fight it would be. GRRM also seems intent on making the reader like him even going so far as to make Ser Ilyn a decent guy but I'm not willing to follow him out onto that limb yet. I'm semi-interested to see what happens next.

Sansa- Sansa, Sansa, Sansa? Why do I hate you so? Is it because I still consider you a kinslayer for reporting on your father to Cersei? Maybe I don't like the fact that you sublimated yourself towards Joffery and even sort of still seemed to like him even after he killed your dad could that be it? No, I think it's that throughout your whole journey you still seem to be as naive as when you came to King's Landing. The fact that she still believes Littlefinger is trying to help her is ridiculous and this whole plan to wed her off in an attempt to reclaim Winterfell? Psssh. I see Sansa ending up as Petyr's loveslave once he manages to marshal a few more of his pieces. For me, these chapters are easily the hardest to read.

Samwell- I feel for big lug but I think Oldtown is the perfect place for him. Having him start to question Jon's motives was a nice touch. Hopefully he'll learn enough so that when he's needed back on the Wall he'll be ready for more Slaying.

Brienne- I hope that it's not curtain's for the swordswench because it would seem to leave her plot largely unresolved but on the other hand I could see why she had to go. The way she was going there was almost no way that she'd ever find either of the Stark girls so she was taking up valuable page space. Sucks for Pod though, it shows just how far the Brothers have fallen. Methinks that something was wrong when wight Catlynn came back and I was super pissed that Beric is gone.

The Dorne Chapters- Man, what did any of these chapters accomplish? We learn that Dorne is really pissed that the Red Viper is dead, I mean, really really pissed. I was kinda hope that Doran would have killed all the Sand Snakes (on second thought, maybe he did). Well, Darkstar did try to kill Myrcella in what can only be described as a GRRM attack scene: the lack of detail about what was actually going on was so sparse I literally didn't know anything had happened to the princess until Arienne brought it up later. Nothing really even touched on what was going on in the rest of Westeroes except for the slight hint that Doran had sent one of his sons off to go do something...wish we might have learned more.

My top questions after this book:

1. Will the Tyrells try to break Margery out? They seem to have enough military presence or will they be spread thin trying to fend off the Ironborn.

2. Who is the Champion that Qyburn spoke of? I mean I guess it could be Gregor but I thought that the head of the Mountain had been sent to Dorne. Maybe another head was substituted but wouldn't someone have noticed?

3. How long in theory can wight Catlynn keep going on? Lord Beric seemed to be getting worse and Thoros wasn't sure how much longer he could keep going. And what is the Brotherhood's overall goal: just kill all the Freys or kill everyone?

My thoughts as well...

I was starting to dread the Cersei chapters so I was pleasantly surprised when she got thrown in the prison at the end. It's so sad though. She had such potential at the beginning of the series to be a much stronger, and saner, character than she turned out to be.

I've started to like Sansa since she built Winterfell in the snow at the Vale. It seems like she finally started to remember where she came from. And she is starting to understand things, but she does place too much trust in Littlefinger. This story is one of the most interesting to me. I'm interested in how it develops. I also loved when she thought how nice it would be to see Jon again.

I agree Oldtown is probably the perfect place for Samwell. Someone else wondered if his friendship with Jon is over, but I think after he gains more experience in Oldtown, he'll come to respect or understand Jon's decisions.

Thoros's group is definitely a lot different than when under Beric that's for sure. I gather that even Thoros isn't happy with the direction it's taken. Cat's certainly a lot different than she used to be. She never craved vengeance before her death. It's sad that her hatred has consumed her so much so that she sees traitors around every corner. I felt so horrible for Brienne, but I refuse to believe she's dead. I just hope if she agreed to kill Jaime that she goes back on that oath. I really like the bond that they've developed.

I loved the Dorne chapters, but got so bored with the Ironborn chapters. It was really interesting to see the plans to have Arianne marry Viserys. It just shows that he has been working rather than doing nothing. I'm wondering what Arianne's brother and companions was sent to do. The Prince said they were seeking Justice and Vengeance. Then whispered "Fire and Blood" which is the motto of House Targyrean. I can't imagine why they would go to try and kill Dany, especially since they were going to marry the house. I guess their going to seek an alliance, but that wasn't made completely clear.

I hope Maergery makes it out of this alive. I really like her character. I don't know that she's necessarily innocent, but who is?

I think the thing with Beric getting worse was because he kept getting "killed." I think in ASoS, it was his 6th time getting killed and coming back. I wonder if Cat will start getting back to her normal self when she finds out her other children are actually alive...or will she deem them traitors as well?

[Slychd]

I missed this the first time I read through AFFC, but picked up on it later. Did anyone else catch(or totally miss) the Alleras=Sarella hints? I know neither are major characters, but its one of those things that could have greater significance later. It was one of those things that made the prologue and the Dorne chapters so much more interesting to me.

[Tammy]

Yeah, go back and reread that chapter from ACOK. He holds a knife on her and she sings but there is no kiss described. Not nearly the romantic scene that Sansa remembers.

I thought that he kissed her as well, probably because soon afterwards every time she thinks about the event she thinks of him kissing her. She thought he was going to kiss her but he didn't. After she sang the song, she cupped his cheek in her hands and the next thing she knows is he's gone.

I wonder why she all of the sudden remembers it so differently. Is it a wish because he wanted to save her so he becomes in her mind a knight from the songs?

[MJasper]

There's a really long thread in the main forum about Sansa's memory related to Sandor (and in general). I'm biased as a Sansa fan, but reading her chapters I really don't think she trusts anyone at all. Her narrative is so wooden it's clear that her thoughts aren't really being described on page. She can suppress her thoughts and feelings to the extent of totally assuming the 'Alayne' identity - who knows what she's plotting underneath? It's Littlefinger who's putting too much trust in Sansa :P

I have to say the Dorne chapters were my favourite part of this book. Arianne Martell is an idiot, but the reveal to the Targaryen link sent chills down my spine. And I absolutely love the idea of Dorne crowning Myrcella, I do hope they go through with it (although that's now very unlikely). I would really love to see more of Myrcella. I'm hoping at some point in the series there could be a Sansa/Margaery/Myrcella showdown. Way more interesting than the war of Five Kings :D

[Tammy]

re Sandor:

It is pretty easy to assume that Sandor is dead, because that whole issue was dealt with in a very subtle way. There was a play on words used by the priest, and it felt like he was speaking about the "death" in a figurative way. Also, in the Quiet Isle chapter, there is mention of a new novice, several times, who is tall and walking with a visible limp. Also his horse is stabled there, Stranger, and the dog comes right over to this "novice" as well and is very trusting and friendly.

I imagine that there was a grave of some kind constructed, and I think he did leave that helm behind for a reason, probably to cast off what it represented to him. Plus I'm going by the general rule that most deaths are fairly explicitly stated/described, and all we really know is that Arya left him sitting at the side of the road.

With Brienne I believe we leave off with her actually getting hanged, and it brought to my mind the manner of Catelyn's death, but I suppose she might have a couple of *seconds* left, depending on what goes down, so I guess it's possible she might live. I'll have to read on.

I don't think that Sandor is dead; I just don't think his story is done yet. Nor do I think that Brienne or Davos is dead.

[Lady Snark]

Just finished Crows yesterday. I was getting extremely frustrated for the first 300-400 pages, feeling as though there wasn't much progress and too much time wasted on insignificant short-lived characters & details. I was actually starting to dislike Brienne, being bored to tears with her chapters, until she met up with Septon Meribald and things finally started getting interesting.

Add me to the camp that believes Sandor is still alive and he is on Quiet Isle. I was very happy with the revelation that The Hound terrorizing people up and down the Trident was Biter in The Hound's helm. I just couldn't see Sandor all of a sudden turning into his brother and doing all those horrible things.

I hated Catelyn when she was alive and I think I hate her even more as Lady Stoneheart. She is almost as bad as Cersei, just as stupid and vindictive, but just not as evil. I think Brienne is going to survive, since I believe she has to resolve things one way or another with Jaime. The two are rather obsessed with each other now and there needs to be some resolution to their relationship in this story.

I was also getting bored with the Dorne chapters until the tail end of the book after Arienne was locked in the tower and how her father dealt with her (he knew how to break her spirit) and his plans were finally revealed.

I was giddy when Cersei got hers in the end and all her scheming is finally coming to light and blowing up in her face. I grew angrier and angrier with each chapter due to the way she would treat adorable Tommen. That poor boy. Having to grow up with Joffrey tormenting him and having to deal with his cold, cruel mother on top of it? At least he has Ser Pounce, Lady Whiskers and Boots to give the poor boy a little happiness.

And I really hope that Cersei's valonqar turns out to be Jaime strangling her to death and not Tyrion. It would just be poetic justice for her to die at Jaime's hand.

Nice that Martin finally got back to what he started in the prologue in the last 2-3 pages! He really loves torturing his readers by making us wait so long before revisiting certain plot points and moving them forward the tiniest bit. ^_^

[Tammy]

I was giddy when Cersei got hers in the end and all her scheming is finally coming to light and blowing up in her face. I grew angrier and angrier with each chapter due to the way she would treat adorable Tommen. That poor boy. Having to grow up with Joffrey tormenting him and having to deal with his cold, cruel mother on top of it? At least he has Ser Pounce, Lady Whiskers and Boots to give the poor boy a little happiness.

And I really hope that Cersei's valonqar turns out to be Jaime strangling her to death and not Tyrion. It would just be poetic justice for her to die at Jaime's hand.

Nice that Martin finally got back to what he started in the prologue in the last 2-3 pages! He really loves torturing his readers by making us wait so long before revisiting certain plot points and moving them forward the tiniest bit. ^_^

I agree! I was getting frustrated in all the Cersei chapters because it seemed as though her scheming was coming off without a hitch and that bothered me to no end.

It would be beautiful too if Jaime is her valonqar and would fit with her constantly getting everything wrong in her head about everybody.

I'm really interested in Old Town and hope that we get more of it in ADwD. Their warning to Sam to work on his chain and do it quickly because there would be a need of a maester at the Wall soon was chilling.

[Tammy]

The more I think about it the more I love Jaime's development in AFfC. I loved his statements to the Freys concerning the treatment of Edmure and how not to threaten something you're clearly not willing to do. He masterfully pulled off the siege of Riverrun, getting what he wanted without an out and out battle.

First, I will send up the men who used to be your bannermen and make you fight your allies... Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.

Then when he burned Cersei's letter begging him to come to KL. Just gives me even more hope for his character. I can't wait to see what he'll continue to do.

[An Ironborn Son]

The burning of the letter was all a bit much for me. I mean, that almost makes him a kinslayer doesn't it?

[Tammy]

If burning a letter asking for help qualifies him for being a kinslayer, then Sansa is a kinslayer for running to Cersei and spilling her father's plans.

[Lady Snark]

If burning a letter asking for help qualifies him for being a kinslayer, then Sansa is a kinslayer for running to Cersei and spilling her father's plans.

Agreed!

I liked Jaime a little more after he burned that letter. Cersei did not want to listen to Jaime or Kevan when they tried to give her sound counsel. Cersei got herself into this mess and she should be left to get herself out. I hope Jaime is completely done with Cersei. However, I have a feeling that if Jaime hears things are going really bad for Cersei, he will go to King's Landing to try to help her.