53 replies to this topic

[trueWaif]

i just got to the part where

Spoiler

Littlefinger rescues (?) Sansa and i'm so glad for the unexpected change up!  i was getting seriously bored w/ her character.  Littlefinger is being an oportunist as usual and his intentions toward her are even alittle creepy, but i do think he'll be a great teacher for her and i'm hoping she becomes more sophisticated and they form a mutually beneficial partnership/relationship.

[Lord Theon Greyjoy]

I really want to like and support Sansa, and I still do but only a little bit.

So far she seems so submissive it hurts. At the beginning she was so obedient to anything the Lannisters wanted of her and she remained that way until almost the very end (of ASOS) at which point she was obedient to the Lannister fool.

With Dany for example, she needed to grow up and grab the bull by the horns else she would lose everything, I can't help but feel that even if Sansa did have a baby to protect (as Dany did with Drohgo and then later with her dragons) she would still be so painfully submissive, mayhaps even more so as she would have something more to lose through disobedience.

I wish her well though, I hope she wakes up the pro-active genes that Catelyn gave her sooner rather than later.

[Lupomostro]

I like the way Sansa is written
Reading these novels, it is easy to fantasise that I would have been feisty little fighter Arya, sword in hand, silent as shadows, swift as a cat etc, But the truth is that most of us ladies at 11/12 would have had more in common with Sansa!

Trapped in King's Landing, she is powerless, helpless, her only armour the words she uses, and she uses them skilfully, though others dismiss her as stupid for her apparent passivity. Has anyone every read 'I, Claudius' by Robert Graves? If not, I can highly, highly recommend it. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if you love these novels, you would instantly click with 'I, Claudius'. In this novel, Claudius manages to survive Augustus, Tiberius and  Caligula's reigns by appearing to be 'stupid' - he is crippled and stammers, so everyone assumes him to be a 'half-wit' - he is not considered a threat, so no one bothers to dispose of him. He survives by his wits - where far cleverer men were dispatched by Tiberius and Caligula to be crowned emperor on Caligula's death. I wonder if GRRM used the same idea here with Sansa: he gave her the wits to appear witless so no one took her seriously, or even considered she'd be plotting her escape from KL.

Every experience colours her character, and I love that we, the readers, see that.

[Ser Leo Targaryen]

[SoS spoilers]

I think Sansa is the Stark kid to suffer the most. Even if they were going through some pretty tough situations, in a way all of them were living their dreams.
Jon found the respect he always dreamed of, together with a sense of belonging, getting to go as high as a bastard can dream of going;
Robb became the first king of the North in three centuries, and even though he died really young, while he lived he was respected and never lost a single battle;
Arya got the chance of living her adventures, seeing different continents and slowly becoming a fighter. She would never have gotten that chance if she had been delivered back to her family. They would have put her on a dress, and found her a marriage;
Bran is learning about skills he never dreamt of, and might find a way to overcome his physical conditions.
While Sansa only got to find out that everything she ever dreamt was a lie. The world she desire doesn't exist, and her dreams became nightmares.
It's taking time, but she's growing a lot and, in that sense, she's one of my favorites characters. A true survivor, to find strength to keep on going despite all of her sufferings!

[Jeff_God_Of_Biscuits]

nooksack, on 03 August 2011 - 05:54 PM, said:

Sansa is a very idealistic person, and her idealism prevents her from seeing reality at times. However, I think once she realizes this about herself, her idealism will become a strength rather than a weakness. I can definitely relate to her burning desire for a better reality; she just lacks experience to temper it.

Not unlike her father.  However dumb her mouthing of Cerseis words was, it wasn't half as dumb as Ned giving his entire case to Cersei and expecting her to slink quietly into the night just because it was the right thing to do.

Having finished ASOS there may be spoilers, I just don't know the code to hide it.  Any tips would be appreciated.


[spoiler]
Sansa frustrated me for a long time, but I finished ASOS with hope.  She may be naïve, but she is young and raised with a head full of fantasies that spend the best part of 3 books turning to mud- including becoming queen.   While I sometimes see her suffer in comparison to her younger, feistier sister (maybe often, I haven’t spent much time on the forums), Sansa and Arya finish SOS on an equal terms in my reading.  Both are exactly where there characters ought to be given their personalities and experience.  Switch places at any point from the last third of AGOT onwards and both would be dead within a chapter.

Sansa’s chief defence up to this point may be doe-eyed helplessness, but what other weapon does she have?  She spends the first two and a half books as both a pawn and a hostage under constant watch, and it was not until death was virtually a preference that she attempts escape.  Lets face it, when your only honest defenders are a dwarf, a drunken fool and (maybe) a scar faced murderer/defender of her chief tormenter, it’s not like you can draw a great deal of confidence from your allies.  Maybe a bit of time in the presence of a master manipulator will teach her to see the world as it is?

As for Arya: as much as I love her, hers is not a heroic arc (yet), nor are her decisions necessarily smarter and nor is she any less victim to the machinations of powerful figures.  While her wilfulness and proactivity make her lovable, she is as helpless in the world of Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch and Roose Bolton as Sansa is in the world of the Lannisters.  In place of (mostly) psychological torment, she has substituted physical trauma, where long hungry days in the saddle and the brutal, chaotic realities of war have nurtured a cold and perfunctory attitude to death.  That she should choose to leave Westeros and throw in with an assassin’s guild is less of an escape, more the inevitable path of the child soldier- one that may yet bring her into future conflict with her siblings for all we know.

History:
One starts a rebel; the other starts a pawn.  
Present:
One becomes an apprentice killer: the other become an apprentice player.
Future?
Arya learns to kill and take orders without question? Sansa learns to give orders and manipulate the world to her own ends?

[/spoilers]

Edited by Jeff_God_Of_Biscuits, 29 January 2012 - 07:24 PM.

[Caro99]

i have loved sansa ever since her first chapter perhaps because i prefer am more of a girly-girl person rather than a tomboy like Arya. i adore arya but Sansa has managed to overcome Danny and Cersei in my favorite character in the books. and her relationship with Sandor is just wonderful. yes she may have started as a naive young lady who wanted nothing more than to get married and give her kind babies with blonde hair, but i hope that towards the end she surprises everyone and ends up becoming a queen or somthing with sandor as her paramour.

[Aegon Targaryen X]

I feel no pity on Sansa.  She blames Arya for Lady being killed, but it was her fault for not being truthful. She hates Arya all throughout the first book for no reason except she refuses to believe Arya on how bad Joff is.....see what happened there .  She wants to think everyone wants to help her at points, but at other times she realizes they only want her claim.  Does she have some sort of memory loss on this?  Every time she gets a nice offer she takes it then bam evil happens.

So as I said I feel no pity she brings it upon herself.  Would have been better off with the Hound.

On the Stark's stories being sad.  I think only Sansa is having the depression.  Arya seems to be having fun. Bran is 50/50 on boring and enjoyable.  Jon is kind of calm waters.   Sansa is like watching your cute little puppy follow other dogs off a cliff.

[Fylimar]

Sansa was a big surprise for me. At first, I didn't like her, but she changed a lot until then. As for her being too trustful: Her main goal was to get away from Joffrey, so she took the help, she was offered. I would have done the same, would I be a 13 year old girl in a hostile enviroment - get away and deal with the consequences later. As I recall, she even thought that way - that the Tyrells would probably use her too. But there would be nothing personal involved like with Joffrey, so she might escape them more easily whil playing the good girl, than she could escape Joffrey.

[Ygrette]

@Jeoff_God_Of_Biscuits
Would you fix your spoiler tags, please? It's "spoiler", not "spoilers". Thank you! I really try hard not to look!

My view of Sansa has changed over the course of the 2,75 books I've read so far. At first I liked her, then I was really mad at her for lying about the incident with Nymeria. But I changed my mind very soon when I saw how she was treated and I started to realize she really is a child still and she doesn't have the ability to foresee her actions like others do. Somehow, she is caught within herself and lost in the large gap between reality and the world how she used to know it. She lacks the ability to truly adapt and just clings to the only thing she is really good at: being courteous.

(Spoiler for ASoS ~50%)

Spoiler

As for Sansa and Tyrion, I actually feel sorry for both of them.

Sansa just cannot bring herself to look beyond Tyrion's outer appearance. Within his contraints and depite the threats and harrassment he is suffering from his family towards finally bedding his bride, I think he is doing a great job at being a thoughtful and loving husband. He worries about her, he makes attempts to comfort her, to cheer her up and is still understanding of her rejection. And most of all, he does not force the bedding on her.
I strongly disagree with the feelings of revulsion towards the prospect of sex between Sansa and Tyrion. I cannot see anything wrong with Tyrion except his lack of beauty. Personally, I feel a lot more repelled by Jeoffrey's constant threats of visiting her in her bedchamber. I would feel a lot more sick at the thought of Joffrey in her bed than Tyrion. Tyrion is one of the best matches she could ever hope for within the Red Keep, from my perspective and as I know Tyrion.

From her perspective, though, I do understand that she cannot love him. Not only is he ugly and flies in the face of everything she has ever dreamed of in a husband, but he reminds he of being a Lannister hostage and he represents everything she ever hated and feared. It took her a long time to see Joffrey's true face and I understand that it will probably take her another lifetime to trust Tyrion, if at all.

It's a lose/lose situation for both them, although for the moment, it seems to save them from a lot of trouble.

By the way, I would have been extremely curious to actually "meet" the crippled Tyrell heir with all his puppies and foals and poetry - because as he is being described, Sansa may have actually had some hope of a peaceful life with him. i'm just not so sure whether we can trust those idealistic stories about him.

[Dr. Bob]

Sansa at the end of ASOS with Littlefinger...she's gonna be brilliant.

[JamiesRightHandMan]

trueWaif, on 21 January 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

i just got to the part where

Spoiler

Littlefinger rescues (?) Sansa and i'm so glad for the unexpected change up!  i was getting seriously bored w/ her character.  Littlefinger is being an oportunist as usual and his intentions toward her are even alittle creepy, but i do think he'll be a great teacher for her and i'm hoping she becomes more sophisticated and they form a mutually beneficial partnership/relationship.

I dont know how anyone could benefit by knowing LF at all.  He is out for nobody but himself, truely one of the ugliest humans in the entire series thus far.

[mlubbsj]

Jeff_God_Of_Biscuits, on 29 January 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

Not unlike her father.  However dumb her mouthing of Cerseis words was, it wasn't half as dumb as Ned giving his entire case to Cersei and expecting her to slink quietly into the night just because it was the right thing to do.

Having finished ASOS there may be spoilers, I just don't know the code to hide it.  Any tips would be appreciated.

Spoiler

Sansa frustrated me for a long time, but I finished ASOS with hope.  She may be naïve, but she is young and raised with a head full of fantasies that spend the best part of 3 books turning to mud- including becoming queen.   While I sometimes see her suffer in comparison to her younger, feistier sister (maybe often, I haven’t spent much time on the forums), Sansa and Arya finish SOS on an equal terms in my reading.  Both are exactly where there characters ought to be given their personalities and experience.  Switch places at any point from the last third of AGOT onwards and both would be dead within a chapter.

Sansa’s chief defence up to this point may be doe-eyed helplessness, but what other weapon does she have?  She spends the first two and a half books as both a pawn and a hostage under constant watch, and it was not until death was virtually a preference that she attempts escape.  Lets face it, when your only honest defenders are a dwarf, a drunken fool and (maybe) a scar faced murderer/defender of her chief tormenter, it’s not like you can draw a great deal of confidence from your allies.  Maybe a bit of time in the presence of a master manipulator will teach her to see the world as it is?

As for Arya: as much as I love her, hers is not a heroic arc (yet), nor are her decisions necessarily smarter and nor is she any less victim to the machinations of powerful figures.  While her wilfulness and proactivity make her lovable, she is as helpless in the world of Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch and Roose Bolton as Sansa is in the world of the Lannisters.  In place of (mostly) psychological torment, she has substituted physical trauma, where long hungry days in the saddle and the brutal, chaotic realities of war have nurtured a cold and perfunctory attitude to death.  That she should choose to leave Westeros and throw in with an assassin’s guild is less of an escape, more the inevitable path of the child soldier- one that may yet bring her into future conflict with her siblings for all we know.

History:
One starts a rebel; the other starts a pawn.  
Present:
One becomes an apprentice killer: the other become an apprentice player.
Future?
Arya learns to kill and take orders without question? Sansa learns to give orders and manipulate the world to her own ends?

You know I have to really agree with you. Like you said, Sansa is learning how to play the game and at the end of the day if she does survive this whole ordeal she could be a crucial part to bringing justice to her family and restoring there rightful place in the 7 kingdoms. I can just Imagine both Arya and Sansa all grown up and working together for a better future for there family.

[Crown]

mlubbsj, on 18 February 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

You know I have to really agree with you. Like you said, Sansa is learning how to play the game and at the end of the day if she does survive this whole ordeal she could be a crucial part to bringing justice to her family and restoring there rightful place in the 7 kingdoms. I can just Imagine both Arya and Sansa all grown up and working together for a better future for there family.

Sansa will make it untill the end to the series and will sit on the throne in Winterfell, my guess. But knowing GRRM she'll probably get raped and murdered.

Edited by Crown, 18 February 2012 - 05:58 AM.

[Leto Atreides]

Sansa is the opposite of Arya it seems. She always want to stay with whoever is holding her captive and hope life will improve on its own. While her little sisters always wants to escape from or kill whoever is keeping her.

[WinterCrow]

I like the contrast of Sansa and Arya. I don't know if I'd say Sansa is just waiting for life to get better. They are both doing the best they can to survive, using the skills they have. Arya is a fighter, but it isn't serving her any better than Sansa's ability to adapt. Had Arya been in Sansa's place with the Lannisters, she would have been killed for her defiance. The opposite is true of Sansa in Arya's place. She would not have survived the harsh conditions.

[mlubbsj]

Crown, on 18 February 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

Sansa will make it untill the end to the series and will sit on the throne in Winterfell, my guess. But knowing GRRM she'll probably get raped and murdered.

Well I hope that she doesn't get raped and murdered. I think she probably will get raped and forced into yet another marriage.

Spoiler

Probably with Petyr, he wants her badly, not quite sure why yet, but be it for Winterfell or because he was obsessed with Cat. Maybe she'll end up killing him and just keeping all his spoils

By the end of it though, if she does make it she is going to be really strong and hopefully a lot smarter and will make the best decisions to rise in the kingdom not just survive.

Edited by mlubbsj, 18 February 2012 - 10:04 PM.

[Drowsey Dragon]

The hairy bear, on 16 January 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

Perhaps it's just nitpicking, but every time I read this I fell the need to remember that Sansa running to Cersei did not have any effect on Ned's death. Anything that Sansa might have told Cersei, she already knew because Ned himself had already told her that night at the godswood.

This is known. Hard to believe so many readers believe this. Nothing Sansa said to Cersei led to Ned's death. Ned sealed his own death before this even occured.

[Regina316]

trueWaif, on 21 January 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

i just got to the part where

Spoiler

Littlefinger rescues (?) Sansa and i'm so glad for the unexpected change up!  i was getting seriously bored w/ her character.  Littlefinger is being an oportunist as usual and his intentions toward her are even alittle creepy, but i do think he'll be a great teacher for her and i'm hoping she becomes more sophisticated and they form a mutually beneficial partnership/relationship.

I must agree with you. If it was anyone else I would have serious doubts but because it *is* Sansa there might be hope as bad as that will sound.

[LadyJSnow]

I am a huge Sansa fan. I find that I am constantly rooting for her. Every chance she has at happiness are completely ripped away from her. But I think that all of these hardships will turn her into an amazing woman. She is still such a girl. But think about it, she is learning "the game," as a few of you put it, from the queen of the game: Cersei. But she is also Ned's daughter.

Sansa is getting the best education possible: Loyalty and honor from Ned + Cunning and strategy from Cersei = Possibly the strongest female character in the novel.

Or perhaps as a red haired female I am totally bias toward Sansa. Who's to say?

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

Lord Theon Greyjoy, on 21 January 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

With Dany for example, she needed to grow up and grab the bull by the horns else she would lose everything, I can't help but feel that even if Sansa did have a baby to protect (as Dany did with Drohgo and then later with her dragons) she would still be so painfully submissive, mayhaps even more so as she would have something more to lose through disobedience.

Difference between Sansa and Dany though is that Dany was thrown into a warlike culture and elevated to the height of their society. Thrown in the deep sure, but not exactly drowning. Because she was told all her life about what is rightfully hers by her brother and because Drogo brought out the warrior hidden behind the little girl, she eased into that role much more naturally. She also had the bonus of being surrounded by people she could trust (to an extent) with her ko, her handmaids and her queensguard.

What does Sansa have? She's all on her own, she's had to witness a whole host of her childhood household (including her father) butchered around her, and is manipulated by every worm in the court. Unline Ramsay Bolton's post above, I have absolute pity for her. Sure, she brought a lot of crap onto herself but we can't let the fact that she's just a young girl be forgotten.

The parallels between her and Dany are interesting. Without that support network around her, the progression has been slower for Sansa but as I'm reading AFFC now I can slowly see Sansa growing before my eyes. The pup is becoming a she-wolf, and hopefully she's the one that rips out Littlefinger's throat