400 replies to this topic

[Fez]

Arguably the very end of Jon's final chapter is an even bigger deal then the letter he receives from Ramsay, but I tend to think Jon will be just fine so I'm much more interested in this. What I really wonder is; (as the topic title suggests) is the letter real?

On the fake side: Ramsay has a history of lying about deaths of important people. There is potential gain by tricking Jon to deliver himself to Ramsay. And if Ramsay won, shouldn't he have recaptured Theon and Jenny Poole? How did they get away?

On the real side: GRRM likes surprise killings. Ramsay had to have at least survived the battle in order to be in a position to write the letter. There's no way he would've known Abel was Mance Ryder unless he had in fact caught him. I'm unclear if Lightbringer was widely known of in the North already or if Ramsay had to have gotten a hold of it to know its "magic".


I really don't know what to think; this whole chapter hit me as a bigger gut punch than even the Red Wedding. I'm hoping that the truth is that the weather just made the battle inconclusive and that the Boltons ended up having to retreat to Winterfell and that Ramsay decided that maybe there'd be gain by tricking Jon into delivering hostages. But I just can't make up my mind. What do ya'll think?

[Ran]

There's truth in it, as Jon said... but not all of it is true, I think that's clear. I for one don't think Stannis is actually dead (Linda wavers on the topic). OTOH, she believes Roose is dead or dying, for Ramsay to be the one writing letters. Maybe.

I don't know that Mance is caught, as he claims. Maybe, maybe not. HE could have tortured the surviving wildling women to get that information. The sword... maybe he does possess it, I suppose.

[Zezibesh]

I can see Mance being caught, but I doubt Stannis is dead yet. Remember, "return my Reek to me", or "return my bride"?. Asha's forces had just joined them, and while it's not clear what they were going to do from there, I believe they were stuck as well. If Ramsay had smashed his host as he claims, wouldn't he have Theon and Jeyne? Plus seven days of battle sounds a bit odd to me.

EDIT: But a part of me hopes Ramsay managed to kill everyone, including the hardy-as-hell Tycho Nestoris, since seeing what the wrath of the Iron Bank truly means would almost be worth it.

Edited by Zezibesh, 12 July 2011 - 07:51 AM.

[Kaitscralt]

I think killing Stannis off-screen would unforgivable, so I am assuming the letter is wrong.

[Slick Mongoose]

Zezibesh, on 12 July 2011 - 07:49 AM, said:

EDIT: But a part of me hopes Ramsay managed to kill everyone, including the hardy-as-hell Tycho Nestoris, since seeing what the wrath of the Iron Bank truly means would almost be worth it.

It probably involves faceless men.

[abcd]

Its a letter from a Bolton, I dont trust it. I think Mance might have been caught though

[banditry]

Kaitscralt, on 12 July 2011 - 07:55 AM, said:

I think killing Stannis off-screen would unforgivable, so I am assuming the letter is wrong.

Agreed; that would be incredibly cheap.

I don't think Stannis is dead, but he might wish he were... There have been references to Stannis as being "hard but brittle" throughout the book. Renly the "copper", Robert the "real steel". I suspect we'll see how "brittle" Stannis actually is, if he's in the hands of Ramsay. Will the Red Woman see Stannis being flayed bit by bit in her fires? If so, will she come to his rescue?

[Slick Mongoose]

My main problem with Ramsay beating Stannis is, what happened to the Manderlys? Wyman cannot lose!

[banditry]

Slick Mongoose, on 12 July 2011 - 08:07 AM, said:

My main problem with Ramsay beating Stannis is, what happened to the Manderlys? Wyman cannot lose!

It might not have been the right time for the Manderlys to act. They could still be within Winterfell, plotting, even if Stannis is now dead or captured.

[Lord Varys]

This 'Pink Letter' (after the Red Wedding and the Purple Wedding this would be the proper name, I assume) has to be false, in my opinion.

Ramsay only talks about stuff every idiot knows. Anybody knows that Selyse, Mel, and Shireen hang out at the Wall. Anybody knows that Stannis supposedly has a magic sword. Also, it's not that surprising that he would want Jeyne and Theon back.
And it makes no sense that Theon and Jeyne would get away as they were with Stannis when we last saw them. So how would they get away from him, pray?

But it makes no sense at all that he would not mention Asha and Tycho in the letter, if he would have really captured men from Stannis's host.

Lady Dustin made it crystal clear that the Bolton claim to the North comes from 'Arya Stark'. That is why Ramsay is utterly stupid to treat Jeyne the way he did. Her escape alone should have shattered the willingness of most of Roose's northern allies considerably. And with Jeyne and Theon Stannis had no reason at all to make a suicidal attack on Winterfell. The clans from the hills wanted to rescue Arya Stark. Now they know that Arya Stark is not Arya Stark. And Tycho and Theon both would tell him about the Karstark treason, so old uncle Arnolf should be toast right now.
With the knowledge about Jeyne, the proper course would be to make a loud proclamation about it before Winterfell, to motivate most of Roose's bannermen to desert the Bolton cause. And then there is the planned Manderly betrayal to consider.

My guess is that there was no battle at Winterfell. Stannis had no reason to attack with Theon and Jeyne in his grasp, so I'd assume that he would have made for Torrhen's Square. With Theon and Asha, and their Ironborn he would have a good chance to free that castle as well - and with the rightful heir of the Iron Islands in his power the Iron Islands would make a much better target than the empty ruin of Winterfell with no Stark inside.

Roose is still alive in my opinion, but he and his allies most likely have deserted Ramsay the way Asha deserted Theon back in ACoK. Roose never would have lead his troops personally in this situation, he would have sent only his men (and, of course, all of the Manderlys). So it makes little sense to assume that he could have been killed/injured during the battle. Especially as Ramsay signs his letter with 'trueborn Lord of Winterfell' (which essentially is a way to provoke Jon) rather than with 'Lord of the Dreadfort, Lord of Hornwood, trueborn Lord of Winterfell, and Warden of the North' - which would have been the proper styling if Roose was dead.

[Fez]

Lord Varys, on 12 July 2011 - 08:28 AM, said:

This 'Pink Letter' (after the Red Wedding and the Purple Wedding this would be the proper name, I assume) has to be false, in my opinion....

All good points. However from my understanding of the end of Asha's last chapter was that the Boltons had left Winterfell and were attacking Stannis' encampment itself. It doesn't matter if an attack on Winterfell would be silly (and I agree it would), the Boltons were attacking. A battle of some sort did start. What isn't clear is if it was the entire Bolton host that was appearing or a smaller group giving chase to Theon that Stannis could've easily dealt with.

[Asator]

In the last Theon chapter, Roose sends out the Manderlys and the Freys, there is no mention of his whole army marching out to confront Stannis. But, as we know, the Manderlys were planning betrayal anyway so there is no way the Freys alone could have defeated Stannis.

I don't think GRRM would leave out the battle, with so many major characters involved, two of them POVs. He will probably show it at the beginning of Winds of Winter, which doesn't necessarily mean the Boltons won't win and that the letter was fake. What would it gain Ramsay to write to the Night's Watch if Stannis remained in the field?

Generally, though, I think the whole business with the letter is probably the weakest point in all the book. First we have Stannis trudging through the snow and Theon sitting in Winterfell for I don't know how many chapters, with essentially nothing happening, and then we are told of the culmination of two major storylines by letter? Even if the letter is fake that's quite disappointing.

[Lord Varys]

Anyway, it is a stupid way to end a book, and a slap in the face of the reader. Jon's death is as well, but this is worse. Especially as the Karstark/Manderly betrayal was obvious from Reek's first chapter and Davos's last chapter. It is not too much to demand a real resolution to these plot points.

Instead, we get tons and tons of snow, stupid talk between Asha and disgusting secondary characters, and way too much Theon.

Edited by Lord Varys, 12 July 2011 - 10:15 AM.

[Kaitscralt]

Asator, on 12 July 2011 - 10:05 AM, said:

In the last Theon chapter, Roose sends out the Manderlys and the Freys, there is no mention of his whole army marching out to confront Stannis. But, as we know, the Manderlys were planning betrayal anyway so there is no way the Freys alone could have defeated Stannis.

I don't think GRRM would leave out the battle, with so many major characters involved, two of them POVs. He will probably show it at the beginning of Winds of Winter, which doesn't necessarily mean the Boltons won't win and that the letter was fake. What would it gain Ramsay to write to the Night's Watch if Stannis remained in the field?

Generally, though, I think the whole business with the letter is probably the weakest point in all the book. First we have Stannis trudging through the snow and Theon sitting in Winterfell for I don't know how many chapters, with essentially nothing happening, and then we are told of the culmination of two major storylines by letter? Even if the letter is fake that's quite disappointing.

George just fixed the timeline, why would he do something like that? It makes no sense chronologically. Whatever Ramsay did, true or false, I think we won't see it now that we've read the letter.

[Brendan Moody]

It's always been true that the end of one book overlaps chronologically with the beginning of the next. It's entirely possible we'll get some further perspective on events at Winterfell in the opening of The Winds of Winter, whether in the prologue or from Theon or Asha.

[Alytha]

If the letter is real, why wasn't there a mention of Theon and Asha, if Bolton was the one attacking Stannis' camp?
(there wasn't, was there? It's been 2 weeks since I read it)

Ok, maybe they profited from the chaos of battle and escaped...

[Axon]

The letter contains half truths, of course. He may actually have Mance. The suggestion that Stannis is dead seems unlikely. Why else would you demand Theon and Jeyne back?

I have to agree that I did not like the numerous cliffhangers at the end, however. While I don't think TWOW will take another six years, it would have been nice to have some resolution rather than far more questions.

[Skywarpgold]

I think the "seven day battle" referred to in the letter has to do with the small group led by the Umber with Stannis. Tycho mentions to Asha that Umber was just sitting around "blowing horns and beating drums," so my guess is that Bolton finally found them and killed that small force, and is making the rest up. I don't think the Manderlys and the Frays left Winterfell, they just went out to see who was "attacking" the castle at the time.

Fez, on 12 July 2011 - 09:30 AM, said:

All good points. However from my understanding of the end of Asha's last chapter was that the Boltons had left Winterfell and were attacking Stannis' encampment itself. It doesn't matter if an attack on Winterfell would be silly (and I agree it would), the Boltons were attacking. A battle of some sort did start. What isn't clear is if it was the entire Bolton host that was appearing or a smaller group giving chase to Theon that Stannis could've easily dealt with.

That wasn't the Boltons that arrived, it was Tycho and her Ironborn friends. They brought Theon and Jeyne to Stannis's camp.

[Lord Varys]

I actually like the Dany, Meereen, Cersei and Jaime ending. And I don't care about Jon. I can predict what is going to happen there rather easily. But I'm really pissed about this letter thing. That was pointless and a deliberate slap in the face.

[generic]

It makes me believe that Roose is dead. He is too smart to admit that he lost his pet Stark.

On the other hand it seems quite possible that the Boltons believe that they have won the battle. The Manderlys could have brought them the magic sword after sadly losing most of the Freys.