[ADwD Spoilers] -Bran 1&2- Coldhands Theories

[Prince of the North]

That runs counter to Coldhands’ having been killed long ago, though. No one killed long ago could possibly be anyone Bran would recognize.

Again, we simply do not have enough information to know just how much time was meant by the "long ago" statement :dunno:

Here’s an important, unanswered question: Why did Coldhands make Sam promise not to tell Jon, his Lord Commander, that his little brother Bran is alive and headed north of the Wall? What possible motivation could he have?

Excellent question! I personally like it because it fits in with the "Coldhands is an Other, Bloodraven is working with the Others" theory. If Jon knew Bran was going North in the company of someone suspiciously sounding like an Other, Jon would presumably try to save him. Bloodraven doesn't want that, because he's not working with those on the Wall, he's working with the Others. He doesn't want those on the Wall to know about what he's become, and he doesn't want Bran to go back to them. This is also consistent with Coldhands killing men of the watch: he wants no trace of Bran, or Bloodraven, to get back to the Wall.

(Again, though, I still have no theory as to why Bloodraven is doing this, or what the Others' plans are!)

Couldn't Coldhands' (and, I suspect, the TEC's) desire to keep Bran's existence and whereabouts secret be explained by simply wanting to do everything possible to ensure his reaching the TEC? If Jon were told Bran was alive and was headed north of the Wall wouldn't Jon have wanted to bring him back to the Wall where he could better protect him? That could not be allowed to happen - Bran absolutely had to reach the TEC. That was the most important thing. Bran must receive his training in order to, I theorize, replace the TEC as the last greenseer. He will be integral if the upcoming Battle for the Dawn is to be won ;)

And, yes, not only did the NW brothers that Coldhands killed represent a danger to the all-important mission of getting Bran to the TEC but they were also deserters.

[dayne curious]

Couldn't Coldhands' (and, I suspect, the TEC's) desire to keep Bran's existence and whereabouts secret be explained by simply wanting to do everything possible to ensure his reaching the TEC? If Jon were told Bran was alive and was headed north of the Wall wouldn't Jon have wanted to bring him back to the Wall where he could better protect him? That could not be allowed to happen - Bran absolutely had to reach the TEC. That was the most important thing. Bran must receive his training in order to, I theorize, replace the TEC as the last greenseer. He will be integral if the upcoming Battle for the Dawn is to be won ;)

I completely agree that this reason is sufficient to explain the secrecy. Jon would have felt compelled to send rangers after Bran (perhaps even to accompany them himself) & Coldhands would have been compelled to potentially kill said rangers in order to ensure Bran made it to the 3EC. A situation Coldhands fervently wished to avoid.

[quine]

Finally found a reference to that Martin quote I was talking about! From a comment by Elio and Linda on Sean T. Collins' blog:

I am reminded that at the L.A. Worldcon in 2006, George was on a panel and he was talking a bit dismissively about the cookie-cutter fantasies with a Dark Lord that's the ultimate evil, wants to destroy the world, etc. and he said, you know, nothing is ever that black and white in reality, history's greatest villains and monsters were, from their own perspective, heroic, etc. And he basically said he didn't want to write about a Dark Lord sort of situation.

And so someone followed up asking, Well, what about the Others? They seem pretty clearly evil.

He paused and then smiled and said we'd have to keep reading to see where that goes.

I think this is an enormously important quote to consider when thinking about how the series might play out. Here's Martin essentially saying that the Others will not be some of all-consuming evil beings.

The only way we can get any perspective on the Others that will not lead us to believe they are pure evil is through a PoV character. At some point (now I need to find this quote!) Martin has said "no more PoV characters" (in fact, he said recently he needs to kill some off ^_^ ). So, we need to get a perspective on the Others through an existing PoV, that will lead us to believe they are not pure evil. The only PoV characters in the Others vicinity are Melisandre, Jon, and Bran, and of these, Bran is far and away the best option.

One way I can see this playing out is Bran, through his greenseer visions of the past, will discover (as Bloodraven may have already) something about the Others that has been lost (or deliberately forgotten/rewritten) through traditional oral history. Something telling us that their attacks are not, in fact, solely for evil, but have some real purpose behind them. This, in turn, would lead Bran and Bloodraven to work with them.

[Black Crow]

Finally found a reference to that Martin quote I was talking about! From a comment by Elio and Linda on Sean T. Collins' blog:

I think this is an enormously important quote to consider when thinking about how the series might play out. Here's Martin essentially saying that the Others will not be some of all-consuming evil beings.

The only way we can get any perspective on the Others that will not lead us to believe they are pure evil is through a PoV character. At some point (now I need to find this quote!) Martin has said "no more PoV characters" (in fact, he said recently he needs to kill some off ^_^ ). So, we need to get a perspective on the Others through an existing PoV, that will lead us to believe they are not pure evil. The only PoV characters in the Others vicinity are Melisandre, Jon, and Bran, and of these, Bran is far and away the best option.

One way I can see this playing out is Bran, through his greenseer visions of the past, will discover (as Bloodraven may have already) something about the Others that has been lost (or deliberately forgotten/rewritten) through traditional oral history. Something telling us that their attacks are not, in fact, solely for evil, but have some real purpose behind them. This, in turn, would lead Bran and Bloodraven to work with them.

Fit like quine...

:agree:

Comes back to my contention that the Others and the Children are either one and the same or allied and that ultimately they want to get through the Wall not because they're evil mean and nasty but because they themselves want to escape the Winter/Ice Age, and we'll see this through Bran and Jon. As I've said before the oral stuff is both unreliable and incomplete - we never did hear what happened to the last Hero.

[Black Crow]

Just by way of a postscript I'd add that what's building up here follows the classic migration pattern which GRRM will certainly be more than aware of, which saw the Roman empire invaded by successive waves of Germanic tribes who were themselves being pushed westwards by the Huns and while we really don't know what their motivation was, the likeliest explanation is a climatic downturn which was depleting the grasslands on which they depended.

So what we're getting here is pressure from the tribes outside the frontier to cross the Wall and settle within the Enpire/Westeros initially as foedorati in order to escape the migrating Others who in turn are being forced south by the coming Ice Age.

[Tini]

I don't think they want to come south of the wall to escape the Ice Age. I think the Wall is at the center of the problem, and its construction created the world made by man in which there is no place for the Children, giants, direwolves, Others. Not even for the wildlings. Dragons were already thought to be extinct. The conflict at the Wall might be a last desperate rebellion against this fate.

I don't think that the Others and the Children are allied. Bran and his friends wouldn't be able to leave no matter if wights are camping in front of the cave or not. As the Reeds realized traveling with Coldhands, they had traveled too far and had no hope finding their way back to the Wall. I think it is warded to keep the greenseers safe when they are no longer mobile.

[Allen]

I don't think they want to come south of the wall to escape the Ice Age. I think the Wall is at the center of the problem, and its construction created the world made by man in which there is no place for the Children, giants, direwolves, Others. Not even for the wildlings. Dragons were already thought to be extinct. The conflict at the Wall might be a last desperate rebellion against this fate

Pretty strange theory. According to in-universe legends and history, there was once a winter so long and harsh that the sun was blocked off by snow and clouds for years. During this Long Night, the Others roamed Westeros and the East, killing every living being they encountered.

After a bloody war, the Others were pushed back. Conveniently, the long winter ended, and Bran the Builder decided to assemble a magical barrier with the help of the Children of the Forest...the Wall. The construction didn't provoke the Others to commit slaughters of the Old Night: it's the other way around. The Wall was made necessary by such slaughters.

About wildlings, giants, Children of the Forest...I think that Tyrion in the HBO tv series describe pretty well what happened: <<our ancestors were simply lucky, and when the Wall was created were on the right side>>. The dragons were not extinct during the Long Night and the Age of Heroes: they were, by all extent, still unknown. Only centuries after such events the Valyrians discovered the beasts in the caves around the volcanic mountains of their homeland...this discovery gave them enough edge to shift from a peaceful cultures to one of the most effective conquering nation on the world described by Martin.

I'm sincerely perplexed by the amount of people that seem to have a very sketchy grasp of the world's timeline. How can you enjoy such a complex series of novels without some kind of temporal framework?

I don't think that the Others and the Children are allied. Bran and his friends wouldn't be able to leave no matter if wights are camping in front of the cave or not. As the Reeds realized traveling with Coldhands, they had traveled too far and had no hope finding their way back to the Wall. I think it is warded to keep the greenseers safe when they are no longer mobile.

The Children and the Others cannot be allies: they fought each other during the Long Night, and the Children helped Bran the Builder with the construction of the Wall...a magical barrier created with the sole purpose of keeping the Others outside Westeros.

[Tini]

There were reasons for the building the Wall, yes. Pretty compelling reasons. But isn't it possile that building the Wall had unexpected consequences that its builders (both children and human) could not foresee?

[Black Crow]

The Children and the Others cannot be allies: they fought each other during the Long Night, and the Children helped Bran the Builder with the construction of the Wall...a magical barrier created with the sole purpose of keeping the Others outside Westeros.

Leaving aside my doubts as to the reliability of the old stories (as Sam started to discover), there is the simple truth that just because two peoples were bitter enemies long long ago, they are not doomed to still be enemies until the end of time. Just to give one simple example the fact the British and Germans combined to defeat the French at Waterloo didn't prevent the British and French combining to defeat the Germans a bare century later.

[Tini]

Yes, they might be allies. They may be bitter enemies, and still work towards a common goal. Or not. We haven't got enough information.

I don't understand why the greenseer cave is on the wrong side of the Wall. If it already existed when the Children and Bran the Builder built the Wall, why leave it unprotected? If it is younger than the wall, why build it where the Others can besiege it? Were there more caves like this one south of the Wall that have been destroyed?

The people who built the Wall would certainly know how to ward a cave. Were the Children trying to keep it save from humans, too?

It is ironic that the Children are all but vanished from the Westeros they helped make safe, and only live in the unsafe regions north of the Wall.

@Allen: I thought the dragons were considered extinct until Daenerys managed to hatch the eggs. I was not referring to the Long Night/Age of Heroes. I was referring to the present day.

[quine]

The Children and the Others cannot be allies: they fought each other during the Long Night, and the Children helped Bran the Builder with the construction of the Wall...a magical barrier created with the sole purpose of keeping the Others outside Westeros.

Yes, the children of the forest fought the Others...8,000 years ago. In the intervening time, man has pushed the Chilren of the Forest to the edges of the world, all but making them extinct. The only CotF still remaining are north of the wall: the very wall they helped create! If there is to be a war between the Others and man, I see no reason for the CotF to choose man.

Edit: indeed, Blackcrow makes the same point.

[quine]

I don't understand why the greenseer cave is on the wrong side of the Wall. If it already existed when the Children and Bran the Builder built the Wall, why leave it unprotected? If it is younger than the wall, why build it where the Others can besiege it? Were there more caves like this one south of the Wall that have been destroyed?

The people who built the Wall would certainly know how to ward a cave. Were the Children trying to keep it save from humans, too?

It is ironic that the Children are all but vanished from the Westeros they helped make safe, and only live in the unsafe regions north of the Wall.

Well, the Andals killed the CotF and burned their Weirwoods, forcing them north of the wall. I believe they warded the cave they currently reside in after they were forced north.

[CrypticWeirwood]

The Wall does not impede the passage of the Children of the Forest, you know. Leaf has travelled in the realms of men since it went up. And the greenseers can see over/through the wall. The Wall stops the Others.

[Tini]

Yet south of the Wall, people don't believe that the Children of the Forest exist anymore. They are nothing but legends and fairytales.

Only north of the Wall is their existence still known, are they actually present. So the Wall exists for them, too, even if it does not stop their passage.

[ArPharazon]

I think we have forgotten they tried to stop the Andals (or the first men i'm not very sure) at the Neck. The famous hammer of waters. Are they so resigned to extinction? Bloodraven could be called powerful but no very "good", in Dunk and Egg seems some kind of Euron Greyjoy improved.

Perhaps, the Children behave like any other faction in the game, they could be using both picked humans AND the wave of Others in their benefit. Once the Others had overreached.... Red Wedding 2.0? Why should they be pure good? There are houses who don't seek the Iron Throne (meaning absolute power) but more modest targets (Frey, Florent, Martell, Hightower?...) and are nonetheless mayor players in the books. A depopulated North for Others and Children?

For al we know, a reborn Azor Ahai could be equally dangerous for both the Children and Others alike. All forms of firegod R'hllor worshipping (it seems that religion is thriving) could be a common foe for them. That could explain the strange situation between the Children, the Others, Coldhands and Booldraven north of the wall. I think i've read in this forum that the Children helped the first men during the long night, and the Night's Watch after that. But Azor Ahai and his profecy seem to be totally unrelated to the Children, it seemed something from the East (asshai?) than from the West (Children).

In that case the andal descendants of the south (High Septon's fanatism and the revival of the militant orders is important to me; remember the problems the faith and the citadel caused from Oldtown durind the Targ conquest and after) and the first men descendants of the north with their 'North remebers' could be potential allies of the Children against a eastern red rising tide, yes; but also a strategical disadvantage if the R'hllor religion implants there first. Much like the situation of the countries of Eastern Europe in 1939 between a Nazi Germany and the URSS (eastern red rising tide haha). It would be preferable anexation (through the Others) to negotiation once the war is open.

It's my first post so i'm sorry if i have broken some rule, or anything. And for the english, i'm from Spain. And for the poorly structured post, by the way. I hope it has some interesting ideas :)

[Moose2949]

I think that Coldhands really is Benjen, my main evidence is his hesitance to unmask himself or go into 2 many details about himself; possibly because he doesnt want to speak about it or because he doesnt remember his existence before death like with Dondarrion. I think when the TEC says that he died long ago, he infact did but the TEC himself says that time isn't linear as a greenseer. I cant remember the quip, or who said it, but im paraphrasing "A man who doesnt read a booklives but a single life, a man who does read lives a thousand". So when he says he died long ago, well as i said time isnt linear for them. Also on a side note if it is Benjen it would only distract Bran from his purpose which is to become a greenseer if he finds out CH actually his Uncle. Other supporting evidence for the CH=Benjen theory is when CH tells Sam to not speak of Bran, or he refuses to reveal himself.

I dont think that the greenseer or the CotF are working with the others. Bran is learning the arts of the greenseer and will himself know the truth behind the others and their actions in westeros. I think that Bran wouldn't be complicit if he knew what was really going down. Bran also may be shown what he needs to be shown, or may not understand what he is seeing. Either way GRRM will reveal it soon enough (hopefully no 6 year wait for the next book) and any and all of our theories will be debunked as total BS.

Anyways my 2c.

Also to ArPharazon, this has been my native language for 20 years man, and i still screw it up hence my edit.

[1234567]

Could Coldhands be the Night King or one of the ancient Stark Kings that Bran mentioned in ACOK?

I don't think he's Benjen. I think Benjen's deserted the NW and maybe the hooded man at Winterfell.

[Tyrionthebest]

I think we have forgotten they tried to stop the Andals (or the first men i'm not very sure) at the Neck. The famous hammer of waters. Are they so resigned to extinction? Bloodraven could be called powerful but no very "good", in Dunk and Egg seems some kind of Euron Greyjoy improved.

Perhaps, the Children behave like any other faction in the game, they could be using both picked humans AND the wave of Others in their benefit. Once the Others had overreached.... Red Wedding 2.0? Why should they be pure good? There are houses who don't seek the Iron Throne (meaning absolute power) but more modest targets (Frey, Florent, Martell, Hightower?...) and are nonetheless mayor players in the books. A depopulated North for Others and Children?

For al we know, a reborn Azor Ahai could be equally dangerous for both the Children and Others alike. All forms of firegod R'hllor worshipping (it seems that religion is thriving) could be a common foe for them. That could explain the strange situation between the Children, the Others, Coldhands and Booldraven north of the wall. I think i've read in this forum that the Children helped the first men during the long night, and the Night's Watch after that. But Azor Ahai and his profecy seem to be totally unrelated to the Children, it seemed something from the East (asshai?) than from the West (Children).

In that case the andal descendants of the south (High Septon's fanatism and the revival of the militant orders is important to me; remember the problems the faith and the citadel caused from Oldtown durind the Targ conquest and after) and the first men descendants of the north with their 'North remebers' could be potential allies of the Children against a eastern red rising tide, yes; but also a strategical disadvantage if the R'hllor religion implants there first. Much like the situation of the countries of Eastern Europe in 1939 between a Nazi Germany and the URSS (eastern red rising tide haha). It would be preferable anexation (through the Others) to negotiation once the war is open.

It's my first post so i'm sorry if i have broken some rule, or anything. And for the english, i'm from Spain. And for the poorly structured post, by the way. I hope it has some interesting ideas :)

I think you forgot that the andals tried to burn the trees and wanted to eradicate them and the old gods .

[Nucky Thompson]

The Children of the Forest told Bran that they are disappearing because there is no place for them in the world made by man.

Maybe the Children accept that they will disappear, along with direwolves and other misfits. Maybe the others are not so accepting of their fate, and attempting to change it. There are dozens if not hundred of factions is Westeros politics. Why should there only be one faction of Others?

If the Children are disappearing because they have no place in a world made by man, does that mean their fate is inevitable? Or can man remake the world into a place where both can live? If even the direwolves will disappear eventually, why did direwolves appear for the first time in generations south of the Wall and bond with the Stark children? It all comes back to the Wall.

What if the CotF, realising that they will disappear, decided to take down both Others and men with them?

[MtnLion]

@Allen: I thought the dragons were considered extinct until Daenerys managed to hatch the eggs. I was not referring to the Long Night/Age of Heroes. I was referring to the present day.

Let me offer a bit, here. In GoT Bran sees a dragon stir near Asshai. This dream is real time, as he sees his mother on the ship, and many other contemporary things. So, dragons are not extinct in GoT before Danaerys hatches her eggs, they just are not as common as they once were.