219 replies to this topic

[Lord Varys]

Little else does make sense, I imagine. It would be pointless to make Cersei and Jaime secret Targaryens, whereas Tyrion hangs around Meereen and has to tame two dragons in the near future. Also, it would make no sense to introduce Joanna as Aerys's true love, or the woman he desired above all others, if this never ever played out. Dany has an affair with Daario, so Aerys most likely shared his blankets with Joanna Lannister once or twice. And later rather than sooner, as the young Aerys and the young Tywin were actually friends [it was rather interesting that Kevan and Tywin still hoped that Tywin would be recalled to court after Connington's failure, by the way], later on, Aerys did no longer like him that much. And we only know that Tywin was all that devoted to Joanna, not if she was that devoted to him. Especially the older Tywin would not have been what you would call the ideal husband.

It might be even somewhat suspicious or interesting that Joanna had no children for years and years after Jaime and Cersei. And in the end, there are Tyrion's dragon dreams, his mismatched eyes resembling those of Shiera Seastar, his platinum blond hair, and Tywin's suspicion that he was not his son.

Judging Tywin, he would never have murdered a child of Joanna's, but he might well have suspected something. But he would have told nothing about that, just as he never spoke about the incest...

Edited by Lord Varys, 12 July 2011 - 07:23 PM.

[Shagga Likes Axes]

I've been thinking the same. But on the other hand, we have both Tyrion himself and his aunt Genna remarking that he is Lord Tywin's true son in very memorable scenes. If it's true than Tyrion would be Tywin's son just in spirit - and mostly because Tywin's and Cersei's treatment shaped him to be so. Pretty ironic, heh?

[Marsala]

I refuse to believe it. I think GRRM is just messing with us. Tyrion is Tywin writ small. Their relationship loses more than half of its poignancy if Tyrion was Aerys's son all along.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Marsala, on 12 July 2011 - 02:53 PM, said:

I refuse to believe it. I think GRRM is just messing with us. Tyrion is Tywin writ small. Their relationship loses more than half of its poignancy if Tyrion was Aerys's son all along.

ever heard the sentence: nurture and nature
I think he might not be tywin blood,
but he is a lannister non the less

[Lady of Casterly Rock]

Marsala, on 12 July 2011 - 02:53 PM, said:

I refuse to believe it. I think GRRM is just messing with us. Tyrion is Tywin writ small. Their relationship loses more than half of its poignancy if Tyrion was Aerys's son all along.

Jep. I think it´s a red herring.

[Winterborn]

Agree with the nature vs. nurture comment...

I always figured that Jaime and Cersei might have been Aerys' children. Not that it made them special, or gave them great destinies. Instead I always assumed it was just another way of showing that not all people who are related to Targaryens have the blood of the dragon. Like Viserys.

Also, some of the major houses seem to have their own uncanny qualities. The Tyrells of Highgarden are descended from a man who could make flowers bloom at his touch and seem to have a real knack for agriculture. The Starks have "wolf's blood" - the ability to warg, and maybe more. The Baratheons claim to be descended from a weather god and a few of them are warriors of almost supernatural ability.

The Lannisters are descended from Lan the Trickster, or Lan the clever. I can't recall which. I can certainly see Tywin's plotting, Tyrion's cunning, and Jaime's knack for biting quips and swordplay as being very trickster-like qualities. All of the children Tywin claimed, regardless of who fathered them, have some of Lan's blood and are at heart Lannisters.

I think the scene where Tyrion walks in on Tywin and finds him with a whore is especially telling. At first, it seems to set Tywin up as nothing more than a hypocrite. But how much do we really know about his personal life? For all we know, Tywin and Joanna could have had an open relationship. Maybe Tywin could not father children of his own. It could be that Tywin and his wife had unorthodox ideas about sex and marital infidelity, but were very careful about maintaining their privacy and reputation.

[Erya]

Marsala, on 12 July 2011 - 02:53 PM, said:

I refuse to believe it. I think GRRM is just messing with us. Tyrion is Tywin writ small. Their relationship loses more than half of its poignancy if Tyrion was Aerys's son all along.

This. This so much.
I might grit my teeth and put up with Aegon, but this would be too much.

Tyrion's story up till now would lose all of its impact.

[Howling North]

Errr, I think it was mentioned by Barristen that Tywin was GREATLY displeased by Aerys attraction to Joanna. So I'd say no to the open relationship thing.

[Winterborn]

Howling North, on 12 July 2011 - 03:43 PM, said:

Errr, I think it was mentioned by Barristen that Tywin was GREATLY displeased by Aerys attraction to Joanna. So I'd say no to the open relationship thing.

Ah. Well, that pokes a hole in my theory. Thanks for clarifying!

[mysh]

Lord Varys,
I agree with you. I had this suspicion long ago. =)
Btw, as my crackpot theory goes, Joana may still be alive.

[Lord Varys]

This could simplify things a lot. Dragon's blood to tame the dragons and use the horn. I'm sure 'claim the horn with blood' means to smear some dragon blood (i.e. Targaryen or other pure-valyrian blood) on the horn before letting some fool blow it.
There has to be an explanation for the valyrian incest, and it has to have a connection to the dragons and to blood magic.

Then there are Tyrion's issues with his father and the patricide. If Tywin was not his true father then slaying him did not mean that much. And if Varys knew about his heritage, this explains why he would groom him to kill Tywin and why he is sending him to Daenerys. She would be his half-sister, after all.
It would be also rather funny and in accordance with the other 'misplaced son', i.e. Jon Snow.

Tyrion is the son most similar to Tyrion character-wise, but they don't look that much alike, do they, so this is really possible. Especially as Aerys's incest-damaged seed would be a better candidate for the stuff dwarfs are made of, if you ask me (at least in this fantasy setting with magical genes). Genna not knowing about that proves nothing. She and Tywin were not particularly close, and Joanna and Aerys would have had their affair in KL, nor at Casterly Rock.

But this does mean that I like this theory.

[Howling North]

Varys didn't groom Tyrion to kill Tywin. Tyrion did that all on his own. Yes even Varys can't be held responsible for everything....

[Jeejee]

Tyrion also has black and blond hair - a couple Targaryens had  multi-colored hair (or a streak), but as far as we know the Lannisters don't.

[CatelynFan]

God, I hope not.  If it turns out that Tyrion is yet ANOTHER secret Targaryen, I'll quit the series right then and there.  Seriously: how many secret Targaryens have we had now?  Three?  Four?  Way to cheapen the pathos of the dynasty's fall, Martin.  And way to make Dany's character development and rise to power practically meaningless.

For the record, I think the "Aegon is alive!" plot twist is god-awful, probably the worst plot point Martin ever wrote.  Yes, even worse than the Maggy the Frog prophecy, if you can believe it.  It introduces a character who, if he's as important as he seems, should have been introduced at least two books earlier.  It utterly ruins the tragedy of the sack of King's Landing--wasn't the whole point of the scene that NO ONE is safe when the high lords play their Game of Thrones?  It lessens the impact of Dany's status as the last of the dragons and her determination to take back Westeros.  Most importantly, it creates a lot of plot holes, the most important being why didn't Varys let Viserys and Dany know that Aegon was alive?

I could rant forever about this, but I won't.

[Gaston de Foix]

Here's my question? Where the fuck is Dark Sister? Where is Blackfyre? We have the man Bloodraven, but I doubt Aegon would be stupid enough to have packed him off to the Wall with s Valyrian steel blade when House Targaryen had none remaining.

[Ser Greguh]

On the meta level, who within the story would be able to provide definitive clarification of A+J=T?  That's always the biggest problem I've had with the idea.  It's plausible enough, and would provide some clarity to Tyrion's fascination with dragons, but I hate it from a story level and don't see that GRRM has left himself any pre-conceived exposition "outs" (as opposed to, say, Howland Reed).

[Basileus777]

Ser Greguh, on 12 July 2011 - 09:10 PM, said:

On the meta level, who within the story would be able to provide definitive clarification of A+J=T?  That's always the biggest problem I've had with the idea.  It's plausible enough, and would provide some clarity to Tyrion's fascination with dragons, but I hate it from a story level and don't see that GRRM has left himself any pre-conceived exposition "outs" (as opposed to, say, Howland Reed).

Tyrion taming a dragon would provide clarification, if "dragon blood" is indeed necessary for it.

[corbaekin]

I think that I have a lot of really complicated feelings about Tyrion being a scion of the Targaryns.

First: All of the dragon dreams, etc, can be explained away with non-Targaryn explanations. He's a stunted, twisted thing whose own father doesn't want him. Of course he dreams of magic-of things that can make even wizened, twisted bodies into wizards. It's much the same as Bran after his accident. But not every little boy that dreams of dragons gets to ride them. Even with Targaryn blood. Cough, Viserys, who burned.

Second, I agree with Erya: if Tyrion is not a true son of Tywin, so much loses impact. It also makes Tywin right, that dwarf is no blood of his, not really his son, he's justified in mistreatment, and so are Jaime and Cersei to an extent. And it makes Tyrion's twisted fall into hell also all for nothing. His killing of Tywin becomes something to no longer be conflicted over.

It would be the biggest and most frustrating deus ex machina to get Tyrion happy dragon times that I've ever heard of, and would be immensely annoying.

That said! I think there's definitely room for saying that Joanna may have been raped by Aerys-and perhaps even beaten while pregnant. Aerys was pretty damn twisted. What if, for example, Tywin allowed her to go, and she came back shaken-perhaps with the baby damaged by some of the treatment?

[Nightwyng]

Erya, on 12 July 2011 - 03:27 PM, said:

This. This so much.
I might grit my teeth and put up with Aegon, but this would be too much.

Tyrion's story up till now would lose all of its impact.

Not only would it be too much but wouldn't Martin kind of be 'overusing' the whole I am not who I think I am thing?

I get that he is heavily influenced by Medieval History and there is the potential for lots of families "documented" geneaolgy to be occassionally off, no contraception and affairs to appear to be commonplace both in the time frame he is referencing and the world he has created.

Still, if Jon and Tyrion both end up being Targaryeans, well, I'd find that dissappointing to say the least.

It seems like by the end of ADwD there are far too many potential Targs running around (not including Dany who we knew from the start) for a house that was said to be destroyed.

[Nightwyng]

Lord Varys, on 12 July 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:

Then there are Tyrion's issues with his father and the patricide. If Tywin was not his true father then slaying him did not mean that much.

It would mean a lot. Tywin was the only father he ever knew and I think the scene which was handled well in the TV series where Tywin says to Tyrion before leading he's men into Battle.

"That you are my son." Shows this.

I don't believe Tywin ever understood Tyrion and found he's appearance next to he's Adonis like siblings diturbing, but still, Tywin claimed Tyrion as a Lannister and to a Lannister that means everything.